AoS 2 - Skaventide Discussion

[greg19190]

On 8/17/2022 at 10:33 PM, W1tchhunter said:

Awesome post the list when you can! Let us know how Friday goes! The clawlord idea sounds very fun 😛

see last post for list, was playing against beastclaw raiders 2 frost lords on stone horn, 2 units of 4 mornfang, beast claw rider on the dirty snowball thrower was most of the list with a butcher and rothgar.

turn 1

Spoiler

let him go first and he moved his stuff up the bord getting in to dispell rage of my verminlords. my turn faled to get skitter leap off (because of butcher) got the gutter runners out of reserve and took off the general (stone horn) after a clutch 9 inch rerole charge (the shoting was still good though getting him down to 6) 2 and 2s in combat is very good though. deceiver with flaming weapons murked rothgar and his mates in shooting and combat. 

turn 2

Spoiler

he won the role off and took second lobbed vultures and snowballs and charged the gutter runners who killed a mawnfang for there troubles. generally moved up the right side up. my turn 2 i teleported a mystic shield deciver to the right and killed the butcher with stomps and shooting then piled in to the dirty snow ball lobber and crippled it... moved the other verminlord and his additional wound counters (stormvermin) and clawlords up.

turn 3

Spoiler

he won role off for 3 and lobbed his buffed combat frostlord that was reroling hits wounds and saves in to the warbringer and wrecked the stormvermin middle of the bord. the warbringer bumped 9 wounds in the the stormvermin and still took 6 after all said and done and did 2 wounds back. deceiver shanked the dirty snow ball... my turn 3 i got flaming weapons off on the warbringer and mystic shield. the deciver got an archain bolt, ran a fresh lot of wound counters across the table near the warbringer. charged the deciver in and the warbringer titanic dueled deciver rawed. the deciver poped his fight first and got 8 wounds through at -4 rend 🤮 the warbringer went next and with the goading of a clawlord got and extra attack... 9 attacks with the glave overkilled the frost lord without even having to role for the spike fist... gorse... the frostlord still had rerole save as well, with that he had 3 mawnfang left and i had won the game anyway.... 

take way points
 

Spoiler

deciver with warbringer -1 armor is horable especially with extra attacks its very nasty using the stormvermin as additional wound counters seams to work well. the -1 armor is very affective as you would expect well work the role 1 and take d3 wounds (well the stormvermin do) the stormvermin can move 14 which is not slow and helps keep up with the warbringer. 

i liked the 15 gutter runners as they hamstrung the hole game for the beastclaw raders by killing the genral turn 1 (stopping them from getting 1 cp per hero faze for free) and holding them up in close to there deployment for a turn. still not sure if the msu is better but in this situation the 15 probably were. 

i dident get the super sayan suiside clawlord off,  and there situational command ability's on demand didn't really play up to much either so may have to play more with that. i think at lower points it may be more effective. 

in general it shows against an older book the skaven battle tome is now a lot more powerful and flexible as i dont think i could have been able to beat this army with our old book without some luck. 

hope this was interesting for some people and thank you for the read.   

[Enoby]

I'm curious, I've heard lots of good things about AoS 3e battletomes, but have heard more mixed things about the Skaven book. Could anyone elucidate? How is everyone finding the book so far?

[Skreech Verminking]

40 minutes ago, Enoby said:

I'm curious, I've heard lots of good things about AoS 3e battletomes, but have heard more mixed things about the Skaven book. Could anyone elucidate? How is everyone finding the book so far?

Well, Personally I think the book was poorly written. Now that doesn’t mean that there aren’t a few great elements in the book.

Yet they were kept at a minuscule level

basically here are my thoughts:

the postive changes (that I personally like)

-skaven are able to mix and match however they want to field their army thanks to the battleline if conditions that changed (sadly this something they could have done via a points change and it really didn’t need a new book for this)

- we have a good chance at winning tournament battles (yet the lists might not have changed to much from the last book, will be coming back to this one)

-the point changes were greatly done. reducing points on units that were highly overcosted (negative comment: I don’t know why they can’t do this without the release of a new book)

-Verminlords got buffed.

The negative:

-the loss of the bravery buff allegiance ability for taking multiple ranks of rats into a unit, which was very lore friendly.

-the loss for taking mutations for rat ogres, personally I do understand that they’ve gained another 2 wounds and a 4+ save, but this really just is tedious, rat ogres that are smaller than trolls have no armor on them at all, are now as tough as stormfiends?

I liked the mutation system for rat ogres so much better. Would also make the allegiance ability for clan moulder somewhat more interesting.

-the horde army that has no real hordes:

the first thing that everybody comes in mind when reminded of the skaven is that they are swarming the battlefield. Now the competitive scene isn’t very friendly to horde units currently anyways, but the bigger problem I’m currently facing is the following.

1.as a horde army, we get no way to manipulate reinforcement points for our infantry troop choices.

2.currently the skaven have a single hordy unit.

while plague monks, giant rats and Stormvermins should feel as hordy as clanrats, it is very frustrating that the only unit that can be fielded as a unit of 40 or more are only them.

giant rats being one of the worst option.

they swarm their enemy in the fluff, but get swarmed by the enemy in the game.

-after 5-6 long years gw still hasn’t clarified how the redmaw plague works, a greater plague that hasn’t changed a single wording from the last book

-units being nerved that actually really needed a buff or were just fine, for example the ratling gun weapon team. In the last book it had a ton of rerolls, was able to double the shoots with a 33,3% chance of dying, which did some okish damage but was pretty good with the rerolls.

in the new book, they loose their rerolls, and their chance of dying when overcharging is an over 80% chance, not really a fair deal for a weapon team, especially when the only thing it gets in return are an extra 3 shots.

then there is the weapon team command trait that was fantastic in the last book, buffing rattling guns up so they can deal more damage, that doesn’t exist, becau

se for some reason a ct that is called overseer of destruction is apparently not meant to overbuff your weapons team in such a way that they can deal more destruction, no apparently it is meant to keep them from dying?

and it only works if you’re taking clanrats and stormvermins with you, because overseer of destrcution is apparently for sneaky weapon teams able to survive better🤮.

 

-iconic units like the screaming bell were nerved to:”you won’t play this even at a 185 points🤗.” (It lost it’s role and chrrently sadly has none but that of one wishing to take damage so it can summon a verminlord. and it is basically that thing that everybody will ignore doing damage to because there is no reason to do that, it’s not like it could do anything to the enemy) 

-listbuilding won’t have chanced much.

you could easily take a list from the last book, slap thanqoul into it and boom that’s the list that everybody is going to be taking most of the time. 
 

conclusion:

the book was poorly done in my opinion.

most of the major changes that changes the way skaven play or feel could have been put on a single sheet of paper.

The book basically represents a reasonable points update and the new battleline if conditions, both of which could have been done by a simple points update.

units that were already good got a buff while some of the units that were iconic yet haven’t seen the table to often because they were okish but a bit too swingy, got nerved.

and for being a horde army, skaven seem to be missing that horde aspect 

[greg19190]

1 hour ago, Enoby said:

I'm curious, I've heard lots of good things about AoS 3e battletomes, but have heard more mixed things about the Skaven book. Could anyone elucidate? How is everyone finding the book so far?

Love it, in short. 

scryer got worse but all the other factions units if can call them that got better,  with simular lists from the old book they can beat lists that would have stomped them. 

More to the point though I don't think they have lost what made Skaven fun to play with or against. 

As @Skreech Verminking said the verminlords got a buff and can now actuly reliably kill what you put them in which is abit more what the law friendly.  

I think you just have to play some games with or against them to see for your self.  I can give more specific details if you want but the battle reports on the skaven forum should do the trick 

[Skreech Verminking]

27 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

More to the point though I don't think they have lost what made Skaven fun to play with or against. 

Well they lost some.

the randomness stayed, although for some of the units the risk significantly increased while the reward decreased (looking at you rattling gun)

[Beer & Pretzels Gamer]

7 hours ago, Enoby said:

I'm curious, I've heard lots of good things about AoS 3e battletomes, but have heard more mixed things about the Skaven book. Could anyone elucidate? How is everyone finding the book so far?

As I noted in another thread I will defer to @Skreech Verminking’s expertise and experience but honestly as a player new to Skaven it actually got me incredibly excited to try and play them.  I can’t speak to every point of SK’s critique having not been as familiar with the old tome.  For one several people warned me off it.  For another every time I did start looking into it I’d get hung up on the list building rules that made it feel less like a faction with a lot of options but rather several one-off sub-factions each with a very narrow set of unit options.

Which I think is the crux of my differing perspective as while maybe to SK’s points this isn’t raising the roof for expert Skaven players (just take your old list and add Thanquol) I do think it lowers the barrier to new players taking up the faction.  The take a clan leader get a clan bonus and a battleline unit (take 3x leaders get an upgrade bonus) is a major list building improvement.  Making all the centerpiece models in Thanquol and the Verminlords truly viable options to build around.  The w/in 3” rule making getting your larger units into combat effectively easier.  All of this really appeals to me as someone who’d been interested in the faction but unwilling to take the leap.

Money where my mouth is, with their being back in stock just ordered my Master Moulder and Gnawholes.

[Tizianolol]

Guys a question about deathmaster. If I use him as general, and i hide him at the begin of the battle, he generate CP? Can I use heroic power? Or I have to reveal him to do both? Thx a lot!:)

[Rors]

I'm thinking about picking up Skaven after many many years away (fantasy days). Can I have some advice on the list I've built?

Allegiance: Skaven
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Shapers of Beast-flesh
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Master Moulder (90)*
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (90)*
Master Moulder (90)
Thanquol on Boneripper (415)*
- 4 Warpfire Braziers
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Warpseer (370)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic

Battleline
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Lauchon the Soulseeker (30)
Horrorghast (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
Drops: 3
 

[greg19190]

7 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys a question about deathmaster. If I use him as general, and i hide him at the begin of the battle, he generate CP? Can I use heroic power? Or I have to reveal him to do both? Thx a lot!:)

Should be an faq about this...  but he should generate a cp as he not a reserve unit and is on the table (hidden in a unit) which is on the table. There could be an argument for saying no though as he is not set up until he is revealed so his model is not on the table/battlefield. Same problem as above for the second part of your question, but I would say he can't as the model is not on the table and he is meant to be hidden and so can't do anything until the combat phase. 

Main thing is talk to the TO at an event or your opponent before the game to explain,  hopefully there will be an faq though.... Hope this helps 

[greg19190]

3 hours ago, Rors said:

I'm thinking about picking up Skaven after many many years away (fantasy days). Can I have some advice on the list I've built?

Allegiance: Skaven
- Mortal Realm: Ghur
- Grand Strategy: Shapers of Beast-flesh
- Triumphs: Bloodthirsty

Leaders
Master Moulder (90)*
- Artefact: Rabid Crown
Master Moulder (90)*
Master Moulder (90)
Thanquol on Boneripper (415)*
- 4 Warpfire Braziers
- Lore of Ruin: Death Frenzy
Verminlord Warpseer (370)
- General
- Command Trait: Master of Magic

Battleline
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1
4 x Rat Ogors (280)*
- Reinforced x 1

Endless Spells & Invocations
Lauchon the Soulseeker (30)
Horrorghast (40)

Core Battalions
*Battle Regiment

Total: 1965 / 2000
Reinforced Units: 3 / 4
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 113
Drops: 3
 

There is nothing wrong with the list and the units you have slected will do stuff,  what are you playing it against?  And at what level? 

[Rors]

5 hours ago, greg19190 said:

There is nothing wrong with the list and the units you have slected will do stuff,  what are you playing it against?  And at what level? 

Well ideally competitively against a range of opponents.

I'm not sure about having no screens but rat ogers seems quite good for their points cost and coming back on a 3+ seems really good.

[GunslingerOy]

3 hours ago, Rors said:

Well ideally competitively against a range of opponents.

I'm not sure about having no screens but rat ogers seems quite good for their points cost and coming back on a 3+ seems really good.

I ran a sort of similar list with warbringer over warpseer and a 30 of storm vermin. You get one unit of rat ogres up field with dread death frenzy and death frenzy, rinse and repeat while the warbringer and stormvermin March up and slap. The stormvermin suck up damage for the master molders and the warbringer.

[Rors]

5 hours ago, GunslingerOy said:

I ran a sort of similar list with warbringer over warpseer and a 30 of storm vermin. You get one unit of rat ogres up field with dread death frenzy and death frenzy, rinse and repeat while the warbringer and stormvermin March up and slap. The stormvermin suck up damage for the master molders and the warbringer.

Double death frenzy certainly sounds potent. My reasoning for the warpseer is that the only clan bonus I care about in this list is the reliable charge, run, pike in bonus. Aside from that I figured I'd probably screen with the warpseer when I need to and use his warscroll spell to slow down another unit.

Stormvermin look like they hit like a truck but so squishy and in this edition how have you found them when bounty hunters show up?

[greg19190]

8 hours ago, Rors said:

Double death frenzy certainly sounds potent. My reasoning for the warpseer is that the only clan bonus I care about in this list is the reliable charge, run, pike in bonus. Aside from that I figured I'd probably screen with the warpseer when I need to and use his warscroll spell to slow down another unit.

Stormvermin look like they hit like a truck but so squishy and in this edition how have you found them when bounty hunters show up?

They die... 😏 But they are more useful as a wound battery for your hero's so they can be protected from range attacks and bad placement so they can still do there thing,  screens are a must at torniments and giant rats seem rubbish but having something that can soak up a charge or steal a galavets only point is megga think of a megga guargent not having an objective cause 1 giant rat is on it all ways funny... 

Maybe swap out the warpseer for an extra reinforsed ratoger unit and some giant rats (which come back on a 3+) and gray seer... Or if your trick is to do the death frenzy more use a warbringer. 

Have you been able to play with this list alot?  

Edited August 24, 2022 by greg19190

[W1tchhunter]

I found the rat swarms to be excellent Screens, they look so harmless so your opponent isn't likely to throw everything they have at them, but if they don't finish the unit off they replenish at the end of both battleshock phases.

Is it just me or does that Hordemaster command Trait seem like a trap for moulder? Once per game AND a dice roll is just asking for sadness and disappointment.

[Skreech Verminking]

1 hour ago, W1tchhunter said:

Is it just me or does that Hordemaster command Trait seem like a trap for moulder? Once per game AND a dice roll is just asking for sadness and disappointment.

It is very much so.

[greg19190]

4 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

I found the rat swarms to be excellent Screens, they look so harmless so your opponent isn't likely to throw everything they have at them, but if they don't finish the unit off they replenish at the end of both battleshock phases.

Is it just me or does that Hordemaster command Trait seem like a trap for moulder? Once per game AND a dice roll is just asking for sadness and disappointment.

It's almost like they meant to have the normal inbuilt warscroll one as a 5+... Pass damage on on a 3+ is good though

[W1tchhunter]

2 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

It's almost like they meant to have the normal inbuilt warscroll one as a 5+... Pass damage on on a 3+ is good though

Oh damn I didn't see the master moulders had this built into the warscroll. What's the point in the command Trait then? 

[Rors]

6 hours ago, greg19190 said:

They die... 😏 But they are more useful as a wound battery for your hero's so they can be protected from range attacks and bad placement so they can still do there thing,  screens are a must at torniments and giant rats seem rubbish but having something that can soak up a charge or steal a galavets only point is megga think of a megga guargent not having an objective cause 1 giant rat is on it all ways funny... 

Maybe swap out the warpseer for an extra reinforsed ratoger unit and some giant rats (which come back on a 3+) and gray seer... Or if your trick is to do the death frenzy more use a warbringer. 

Have you been able to play with this list alot?  

I've not played with Skaven yet. I'm about to finish my current army and considering the next project.

[greg19190]

2 hours ago, Rors said:

I've not played with Skaven yet. I'm about to finish my current army and considering the next project.

Fair enough glad to have you back for the glory of the horned rat after fantasy though.

try out what has been talked about so far but To be honest I haven't played around much with having 3 master clan in a list yet so would be interesting to hear about how you find it effects game play, but the master molded side of things it works very well as long as you can dely how many 3+ rolls you have to make per turn and have the space to put the rat ogers back in a good place hence the screens. Hope this helps though

[Rangeltoft]

4 hours ago, W1tchhunter said:

Oh damn I didn't see the master moulders had this built into the warscroll. What's the point in the command Trait then? 

the command trait lets you use the ability without spendning a command point and you could bring back two units in the same phase, since its not the same ability as the command ability on the warscroll

[Skreech Verminking]

My weapon team deluxe list:

Army Faction: Skaven
    - Grand Strategy: Show of Dominance
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

1 x Warlock Bombardier (115)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Deranged Inventor
    - Artefacts: The Brass Orb
    - Spells: More-more-more Warp Power!

1 x Warlock Bombardier (115)

BATTLELINE

5 x Skryre Acolytes (75)****

5 x Skryre Acolytes (75)****

20 x Clanrats (100)****
    -  Clanrat Bell-ringer
    - Clanrat Standard Bearer
    - Clawleader
    - Rusty Blade

OTHER

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)**

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)**

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Bounty Hunters

**Bounty Hunters

***Bounty Hunters

****Expert Conquerors

TOTAL POINTS: (1985/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

thank god 3d printing is a thing.

all 8 doom flayers will be 3d printed thanks to a friend of mine

[greg19190]

15 hours ago, Skreech Verminking said:

My weapon team deluxe list:

Army Faction: Skaven
    - Grand Strategy: Show of Dominance
    - Triumphs: Inspired

LEADER

1 x Warlock Bombardier (115)
    - General
    - Command Traits: Deranged Inventor
    - Artefacts: The Brass Orb
    - Spells: More-more-more Warp Power!

1 x Warlock Bombardier (115)

BATTLELINE

5 x Skryre Acolytes (75)****

5 x Skryre Acolytes (75)****

20 x Clanrats (100)****
    -  Clanrat Bell-ringer
    - Clanrat Standard Bearer
    - Clawleader
    - Rusty Blade

OTHER

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Ratling Gun (65)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Warpfire Thrower (70)

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)*

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)**

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)**

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

1 x Doom-Flayer (65)***

CORE BATTALIONS:

*Bounty Hunters

**Bounty Hunters

***Bounty Hunters

****Expert Conquerors

TOTAL POINTS: (1985/2000)

Created with Warhammer Age of Sigmar: The App

thank god 3d printing is a thing.

all 8 doom flayers will be 3d printed thanks to a friend of mine

Let us know how the list goes

[Skreech Verminking]

17 minutes ago, greg19190 said:

Let us know how the list goes

Well…. Will do so toll then, enoy my biker squad

[W1tchhunter]

29 minutes ago, Skreech Verminking said:

Well…. Will do so toll then, enoy my biker squad

Love these, I only have one at the moment, finished painting him the other day.