returning wfb player....aos daemon confusion

[kenshin620]

2 minutes ago, talonz said:

Great info thanks folks.

 

Questions;

-the free core rules do not contain any stats for allegiance or battalion rules.  I must buy the big hardbound core book?  Or is there a smaller softbound core book with just the rules like the old skull pass booklet?

-khorne cannot ally with slaanesh.  Well !#$k.  That seems odd as I can still have a khorne/slaanesh army just under the bigger chaos alliance umbrella?  So just miss out on a focused with friends khorne or slaanesh army?  I have two daemon armies both are focused on a two god pairing....

-battalions...If i read this right you buy enough troops to satisfy the battalion requirement, and then purchase the battalion bonuses to go with?  So the battalion can be as big as I want by adding further units to it?  Or is it possible that some daemonettes would not benefit while others would for instance?

-GH2018 is already almost obsolete??

-is there pdfs anywhere?  I like printing my own stuff and marking them up.

Allegiance and Battalion Rules are contained either in the corresponding Battletome or in the GHB. Core Rules is just the Core Rules.

Yes, in the Grand Alliance, there is no ally restrictions or even ally points. You can bring whatever you want but will only use GA rules, no specific Allegiance rules.

Battalions have specific numbers. Some are VERY hard numbered (like 1 X, 3 Y, 2 Z), others have ranges (1-3 X, 3-10 Y, 2-3 Z). If your unit doesn't fit within the Battalion numbers, it does not benefit from Battalion rules.

GHB2018 came out just a few months ago. It'll stick around until early/mid 2019.

The only official pdfs are the warscrolls and core rules on the GW website. Their ebooks use ebook formats.

[talonz]

And magic?  Max 1bolt 1 shield 1 other 1 realm spell?  Cast two from those?

[Requizen]

9 minutes ago, talonz said:

Great info thanks folks.

 

Questions;

-the free core rules do not contain any stats for allegiance or battalion rules.  I must buy the big hardbound core book?  Or is there a smaller softbound core book with just the rules like the old skull pass booklet?

-khorne cannot ally with slaanesh.  Well !#$k.  That seems odd as I can still have a khorne/slaanesh army just under the bigger chaos alliance umbrella?  So just miss out on a focused with friends khorne or slaanesh army?  I have two daemon armies both are focused on a two god pairing....

-battalions...If i read this right you buy enough troops to satisfy the battalion requirement, and then purchase the battalion bonuses to go with?  So the battalion can be as big as I want by adding further units to it?  Or is it possible that some daemonettes would not benefit while others would for instance?

-GH2018 is already almost obsolete??

-is there pdfs anywhere?  I like printing my own stuff and marking them up.

1. Allegiances for generic Chaos and other non-Battletome armies will be in General's Handbook. Battalions will be in there respective Battletomes (some are in Grand Alliance: Chaos, but that's mostly Obsolete now).
2. Yeah, it's limited on pairing. Generic Chaos is mostly fine, but you miss out on a lot of power from Blades of Khorne. Up to you.
3. The Battalion will have limits, and the Battalion effect only works on the units in the Battalion. For instance, Bloodthunder Stampede for Khorne is a mounted Herald of Khorne and 3-7 units of Bloodcrushers. You can bring the minimum, one Hero and 3 units plus the Battalion cost, or you can bring 4 extra Bloodcrusher units. If you buy a unit of Bloodletters, they're part of your army, but not part of the Battalion and therefore do not get the bonus from that Battalion. It's just a group of units within your army.
4. No, General's Handbooks "refresh" every June or August. This current one is only a couple months old.
5. You can go to any unit on the store and go to the Download section underneath. Most of the Warscrolls are completely up to date, but others may not be, so check the App anyways to make sure you have the most recent version.

[Requizen]

3 minutes ago, talonz said:

And magic?  Max 1bolt 1 shield 1 other 1 realm spell?  Cast two from those?

Every Wizard knows Bolt, Shield, and their Warscroll spell, as a baseline.

If you have taken a Battletome Allegiance (such as Disciples of Tzeentch), they also know a spell from those Allegiance Abilities.

If you are playing in a realm and have agreed to use the Malign Sorcery rules (most events use it, ask your opponent for pick up games), then every Wizard on the board knows all the spells for that Realm. 

Each spell can only be cast once per turn, even if multiple different Wizards know it. Each Wizard's Warscroll will have a number indicating how many spells they can attempt to cast (most are 1 per turn).

[talonz]

Doesnt that kinda !@#k pink horrors royally then?  One can cast shield, one can cast bolt (and both spells apparently screwed in aos2), the third or futher horrors unit cant cast anything?

-no poison attacks, hatred, frenzy, killing blow keyword rules anymore? All just built into model specefic rules?

-I guess unit fillers are a no no now?  Everything must be based properly?  Or would this not be an issue?

-counts as models...playing mutalith as soulgrinder for instance...any issues there? (love the muta model, hate the grinder model)

 

[Requizen]

12 minutes ago, talonz said:

Doesnt that kinda !@#k pink horrors royally then?  One can cast shield, one can cast bolt (and both spells apparently screwed in aos2), the third or futher horrors unit cant cast anything?

-no poison attacks, hatred, frenzy, killing blow keyword rules anymore? All just built into model specefic rules?

-I guess unit fillers are a no no now?  Everything must be based properly?  Or would this not be an issue?

-counts as models...playing mutalith as soulgrinder for instance...any issues there? (love the muta model, hate the grinder model)

 

1. Yes, it does affect Pink Horrors, but not that badly since you're generally not bringing 3+ units of them, and even if you are, they can still try a Realm Spell of Disciples of Tzeentch spell. They also went up in points a lot recently, so most people are only taking 2 units max.
2. All rules are on the individual unit's Warscrolls (unless they're granted extra by Allegiance Abilities/Battalion bonuses). While there may be some redundant writing, it is much more straightforward. 
3. There is no rank and file, so no use for fillers. Each model is moved independently (though remaining in coherency), it would look silly for a rock for clump of grass to be following around a Pink Horror. Basing is up to you, but events require it. And come on... it just looks better.
4. Proxies are generally frowned on unless you did some conversion work. In your local store or garage, do whatever, but most events or tournaments would not allow it. Use discretion. 

[kenshin620]

8 minutes ago, Requizen said:

1. Yes, it does affect Pink Horrors, but not that badly since you're generally not bringing 3+ units of them, and even if you are, they can still try a Realm Spell of Disciples of Tzeentch spell. They also went up in points a lot recently, so most people are only taking 2 units max.

Yea this, generally running pure Horrors is...a bit horrifying to the tzeentch player!

 

Keep in mind that for better or for worse it is less "pure daemon or pure mortal" and more "one god or another, with a sprinkling of allies occasionally" in terms of competitive (even semi competitive) lists.

Pure Daemon lists tend to have some...holes in their strategy that would be filled with mortal units. Except for Slaanesh and partly Khorne. But Tzeentch and Nurgle really like their mortals (or in the case of tzeentch, tzaangors)

That is not to say you can't run pure daemons, but there are many synergies that mesh mortals and daemons together, like the khorne Bloodstokers or the nurgle Sorcerers.

[talonz]

4 hours ago, Requizen said:

1. There is no rank and file, so no use for fillers. Each model is moved independently (though remaining in coherency), it would look silly for a rock for clump of grass to be following around a Pink Horror. Basing is up to you, but events require it. And come on... it just looks better.

Well I was referring not to clumps of scenery but larger models or little dioramas that stand in for X smaller models.  Think of how you used to be able to field mixed units of skinks and kroxigors but in a simpler "this model stands in for 5 horrors" for example.

[talonz]

Command models and unit sizes.  So a unit has two values and it says you 'may' take various command models.  So they are included in the cost?   What is the split cost?  forex; Ogors size 3-12 cost 120/400.  Huh??

 

No way to just have 4 ogors eh?

[AverageBoss]

45 minutes ago, talonz said:

Command models and unit sizes.  So a unit has two values and it says you 'may' take various command models.  So they are included in the cost?   What is the split cost?  forex; Ogors size 3-12 cost 120/400.  Huh??

 

No way to just have 4 ogors eh?

In the case of a split value, its a discount for taking a max sized unit. All weapon, command, and special options are freebies and included in cost. All units are purchased in batches. In the case of the ogre unit:

3=120
6=240
9=360
12=400

As far as Horrors go, as long as you are running them in a Tzeentch army, or playing in a realm, you don't have to worry about them running out of spells.

Dioramas and fillers don't really work anymore due to the loose knit skirmishing nature of the game. Things need to be more precise for close combat.

[AverageBoss]

Also rather than the Chaos faction being split between mortal (Warriors of Chaos) and Daemons, they are now split by god.

A Disciples army runs on anything and everything with the Tzeentch keyword. This means you can use Arcanites, Chaos Warriors with a Mark of Tzeentch, Tzeentch Daemons, and Archaon and his mega dragon all in the same list without touching allies points.

This page goes very in depth on allegiances and has a chart listing all allegiances current allies:

https://ageofsigmar.eu/allegiance-abilities/

[123lac]

I'm a bit confused by the idea of a daemons undivided army.

I mean, aren't all daemons just little fragments of their patron god? Bloodletters are part of Khorne, Plaguebearers part of Nurgle etc.

How could these Daemons possibly be anything other than loyal to the god that they are a part of?

I can see Belakor being separate because he was once a mortal and the first Daemon Prince so he didn't need to pledge allegiance or whatever.

[AverageBoss]

41 minutes ago, 123lac said:

I'm a bit confused by the idea of a daemons undivided army.

I mean, aren't all daemons just little fragments of their patron god? Bloodletters are part of Khorne, Plaguebearers part of Nurgle etc.

How could these Daemons possibly be anything other than loyal to the god that they are a part of?

I can see Belakor being separate because he was once a mortal and the first Daemon Prince so he didn't need to pledge allegiance or whatever.

That used to be represented by relying on a specific gods heroes to get the most out of that gods units, and each of the 4 had their own special rules. The current 40K daemons are still like this.

Fluff wise, sometimes different chaos gods (even all 4) come together for 1 goal. The End Times happened because of that.

[Kevlar1972]

5 hours ago, 123lac said:

I'm a bit confused by the idea of a daemons undivided army.

I mean, aren't all daemons just little fragments of their patron god? Bloodletters are part of Khorne, Plaguebearers part of Nurgle etc.

How could these Daemons possibly be anything other than loyal to the god that they are a part of?

I can see Belakor being separate because he was once a mortal and the first Daemon Prince so he didn't need to pledge allegiance or whatever.

Well that's precisely how deamons of chaos worked from 5th to 8th edition...

You don't need too many books to play. You can get by with just the general's handbook 2018 for current rules and points, and the AOS app for all the current warscrolls.  Battalions and allegiance rules are quite easily sourced online and there are only a handful of competitive battalions anyway.  The armybooks are mostly fluff and pretty pictures with like 3 or 4 pages of rules and a bunch of warscrolls that are usually out of date a week or two after they are printed.  Just use the free app.

[Riavan]

10 hours ago, 123lac said:

I'm a bit confused by the idea of a daemons undivided army.

I mean, aren't all daemons just little fragments of their patron god? Bloodletters are part of Khorne, Plaguebearers part of Nurgle etc.

How could these Daemons possibly be anything other than loyal to the god that they are a part of?

I can see Belakor being separate because he was once a mortal and the first Daemon Prince so he didn't need to pledge allegiance or whatever.

In 40k, there is a chaos demons battletome. Which is like an undivided demons army.

But yeah it isn't as good as going with the specific armies.

[kenshin620]

12 hours ago, AverageBoss said:

That used to be represented by relying on a specific gods heroes to get the most out of that gods units, and each of the 4 had their own special rules. The current 40K daemons are still like this.

Fluff wise, sometimes different chaos gods (even all 4) come together for 1 goal. The End Times happened because of that.

Plus really there was no benefit to not mix back in the day. There wasn't "if your entire army was khorne, gain X rule"

Gotta use that battleforce somehow!

 

 

So it is a little jarring for old WFB players since back in the day for either warriors or daemons, mixing marks to maximize the benefits was the norm. Like Tzeentch Warriors of Chaos with Shields backed up by Khorne Knights.

[talonz]

Trying to understand armylist building....downloaded the app and free rules.  Reading d4 chan articles and reviews in general.

 

I can see tzeentch units on the builder.  But I cannot see the generic demons of chaos when I filter for tzeentch?  And 'daemons of chaos' are not an ally option?  So can I take daemon princes/harpies/soulgrinders at all?  Or am I just limited to the tzeentch versions for a disciples army?  Same question re chaos spawn/mutalith.  If Tzeentch I can take them, if not tzeentch, I could still take them as allies....?

[Aezeal]

On 10/9/2018 at 3:12 PM, paul7926 said:

Whilst I can't offer any better advice than has been posted here I think this whole thread should be sent to GW. 

This shows the difficulty new players face that want to get into the game.  It's confusing.  What they need is in multiple places and they have no idea where those places are.  The community, as always, will help them and rally around but this is not a healthy situation for one of GW's 'core' games.  It needs sorting out. 

Now before it's mentioned that 'GW is a business and needs to make money selling multiple 'add-ons' just think of the money they lose long term when people just give up and buy into a totally different game!  I understand that in theory most of this stuff is only needed for 'match play' and that you need just models and the free rules for 'open play' but seriously I've never seen anyone do that.  

I'm sorry OP I didn't mean to derail your thread.  I just find it frustrating that you, and many others like you, have this artificial barrier to entry that does not need to be there.  I went through exactly the same thing getting back into the game.  There is some really good advice in this thread and I hope you manage to navigate your way back to playing again.

 

To be honest the OP would have known al lot more if he'd just read the rules... Its not hard to find those either. ..

[Gecktron]

12 minutes ago, talonz said:

Trying to understand armylist building....downloaded the app and free rules.  Reading d4 chan articles and reviews in general.

 

I can see tzeentch units on the builder.  But I cannot see the generic demons of chaos when I filter for tzeentch?  And 'daemons of chaos' are not an ally option?  So can I take daemon princes/harpies/soulgrinders at all?  Or am I just limited to the tzeentch versions for a disciples army?  Same question re chaos spawn/mutalith.  If Tzeentch I can take them, if not tzeentch, I could still take them as allies....?

Often Chaos units have a ability on their waracroll that allows you to give them a god specific keyword of your choice. Soulgrinders, Princes and Furies can get a Tzeentch Keyword for example and can be part of a Tzeentch army. 

In regards to allies: you have to look at the allies chart for your faction. But rule of thumb: Tzeentch and Nurgle cant ally, and Khorne and Slaanesh cant ally with each other. 

[Aaron Schmidt]

On 10/9/2018 at 12:26 PM, talonz said:

Great info thanks folks.

 

Questions;

-the free core rules do not contain any stats for allegiance or battalion rules.  I must buy the big hardbound core book?  Or is there a smaller softbound core book with just the rules like the old skull pass booklet?

-khorne cannot ally with slaanesh.  Well !#$k.  That seems odd as I can still have a khorne/slaanesh army just under the bigger chaos alliance umbrella?  So just miss out on a focused with friends khorne or slaanesh army?  I have two daemon armies both are focused on a two god pairing....

-battalions...If i read this right you buy enough troops to satisfy the battalion requirement, and then purchase the battalion bonuses to go with?  So the battalion can be as big as I want by adding further units to it?  Or is it possible that some daemonettes would not benefit while others would for instance?

-magic.  Seems like I cant make my heralds spellcasters anymore.  Only the builtin casters get spells.  And just the bolt/shield + one flavour spell.  But suggestions out there say you get another spell from the realm used?

-GH2018 is already almost obsolete??

-is there pdfs anywhere?  I like printing my own stuff and marking them up.

You can download a PDF of the basic rules. Or use the App which also has all of the unit warscrolls (unit rules) in it.

Battalions have criteria for what can be in them. You can run on in addition to other units in your army. If your entire army fits into a battalion, you could do that as well. For example, I like the Daughters of Khaine Shadow Patrol Battalion which requires 4 units with the    ‘Khinerai’ keyword, and 2 units of Doomfire Warlocks. That is all that battalion can have, no more no less. Others are more flexible. After that I can add other units as I like to the army, outside of the battalion.

Spells generally come from 5 places: basic spells (arcane bolt, mystic shield), unit spells (unique spell on the warscroll), faction spells (only in the specific battletome. Maggotkin of Nurgle has 9 spells to choose from, with some limitations, available to magic users from the Nurgle allegiance), Realm Spell from the BRB (not free version), and additional Realm Spells frome Arcane Sorcery. NOTE: don’t feel compelled to buy the BRB or Arcane Sorcery as you are just starting out. Wait until you decide you want to get into the game more.

- GHB is an annual pub that comes out in summer. 2018 has some miles left on it especially as it’s so important for the new edition.

- PDFs are available for a lotof stuff. The APP is the best place for up to date digital rules and warscrolls. Some folks print screenshots from phones (with modern screens) or tablets.

 

 

[kenshin620]

6 hours ago, talonz said:

Trying to understand armylist building....downloaded the app and free rules.  Reading d4 chan articles and reviews in general.

 

I can see tzeentch units on the builder.  But I cannot see the generic demons of chaos when I filter for tzeentch?  And 'daemons of chaos' are not an ally option?  So can I take daemon princes/harpies/soulgrinders at all?  Or am I just limited to the tzeentch versions for a disciples army?  Same question re chaos spawn/mutalith.  If Tzeentch I can take them, if not tzeentch, I could still take them as allies....?

Well I dunno about the app, I never use it, but the wonderful person who did Warscroll Builder automatically included all eligible units in each god army in their respective tabs (Disciples of Tzeentch, Blades of Khorne, Maggotkin of Nurgle, and Hosts of Slaanesh......and yes that is different from the allegiance name of Tzeentch, Khorne, etc).

[AverageBoss]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:57 AM, talonz said:

Trying to understand armylist building....downloaded the app and free rules.  Reading d4 chan articles and reviews in general.

 

I can see tzeentch units on the builder.  But I cannot see the generic demons of chaos when I filter for tzeentch?  And 'daemons of chaos' are not an ally option?  So can I take daemon princes/harpies/soulgrinders at all?  Or am I just limited to the tzeentch versions for a disciples army?  Same question re chaos spawn/mutalith.  If Tzeentch I can take them, if not tzeentch, I could still take them as allies....?

Daemon Princes and Soulgrinders both have rules allowing them to gain the Tzeentch keyword. If you do so, they are fair game. If you don't give them the mark, the Daemon Prince would be an ally, and the Soul Grinder could not be taken at all.

Harpies are a compendium unit, and therefore lack all relevant keywords. They may only be taken in a Grand Alliance army. "Daemons of Chaos" is likewise a compendium army, so its units cannot be taken as allies by anyone.

On the app, the Daemon Prince is probably under Slaves to Darkness, which is its parent faction.

Tzeentch allies are limited to:
Beasts of Chaos (excluding Nurgle units), Everchosen, Monsters of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness (excluding units with mark of Nurgle).

[Rarity Nouveau]

On 10/12/2018 at 3:57 AM, talonz said:

Trying to understand armylist building....downloaded the app and free rules.  Reading d4 chan articles and reviews in general.

 

I can see tzeentch units on the builder.  But I cannot see the generic demons of chaos when I filter for tzeentch?  And 'daemons of chaos' are not an ally option?  So can I take daemon princes/harpies/soulgrinders at all?  Or am I just limited to the tzeentch versions for a disciples army?  Same question re chaos spawn/mutalith.  If Tzeentch I can take them, if not tzeentch, I could still take them as allies....?

I can see it just fine when I use Azyr (the list building pay monthly part of the app). The war scrolls part is divided into factions and most of the old Chaos Warriors models (now Slaves to Darkness) have rules that allow them to take a mark, which is why you won’t see them when you search “Tzeentch,” but you will find them if you are using the army builder.