Tzeentch and endless spells

[Arkiham]

a step too far?
endless spell summoning from spell stealing now requires points to do so. 

over various places on the internet i saw anger and disgust over tzeentch being able to do this, in my view this has been a community driven nerf rather than game play balance one.

you can still summon any spell you stole ( with exceptions ) you just need to have left points in your list not a problem you say? no big deal you say? well.....

 

summoning nearly 1000 points of models = totally fine, totally fun for your opponent and not broken 

summoning a single spell you stole from your opponent = totally game breaking and unfun for your opponent

 

this is a poor decision in my view, it removes tactical choices from the game as now you can basically summon with impunity if you know your opponent cannot afford to steal it and cast it back, previously you had to use tactics and weigh up the risk of casting it and having it potentially stolen and cast back, force you to kill the target etc etc

it is counter intuitive to the games core premise  that all summoning is free... well it isnt now as you gotta pay to summon it. 

if my cursling prevents your spell from going off and can immediately attempt to cast it , i have to pay... and the rules say when i pay i have access to the spell for all my wizards so do they all have access as of his ability ? when the spell isn't even stolen

it feels very kneejerk rather than a thought out decision 

[Mephisto]

You mean the god of change and fate didn't see this coming?

[Arkiham]

2 minutes ago, Mephisto said:

You mean the god of change and fate didn't see this coming?

not even tzeentch can workout and understand the random and illogical thought process of the creators of all. 

[Qaz]

I foresee more powerful endless spells on the horizon. 

[Yoshiya]

Don't agree with the idea that is against summoning being free. Endless spells aren't summoned, the model is just a representation of an ongoing spell that was cast. A spell that had to be paid for when someone wrote their army list up and can be as much as 100pts in their list.

Also, summoning is pointed into the armies (at least in theory, I'm not sold on the balance). Denying your opponent use of their points and then additionally getting to add those points to your army for free whilst not being pointed in is a very different story. Particularly since tzeentch is already one of those armies with the capacity to summon free points.

[lord_blackfang]

But it's fine to steal and cast a spell that creates Chaos Spawn, for example?

[Redmanphill]

If the spell was stolen the Curseling player would actually have to have their own model for it so this renders the ability almost useless already. The wouldn't be able to use the opponents model as that is still available to them in subsequent turns. The same with stealing a spell that summons a creature/unit. The Cursling player would have had to have brought their own along to use. This is such a non-issue!

[Arkiham]

53 minutes ago, Redmanphill said:

If the spell was stolen the Curseling player would actually have to have their own model for it so this renders the ability almost useless already. The wouldn't be able to use the opponents model as that is still available to them in subsequent turns. The same with stealing a spell that summons a creature/unit. The Cursling player would have had to have brought their own along to use. This is such a non-issue!

thats not hard to do... just bring your own endless spells. 

[PUFNSTUF]

This also leaves the question of let's say you have 50 spare points, but "bought" a CP with that. Can you still cast a 40 point spell you stole because you technically had 50 spare points, or no because you chose to take an extra CP?

[wander]

For the above, I'd say no.

If you 90pts free at the end and used 50 for the Command Point, you're golden for that 40pt Endless Spell. You'll start the game with the extra Command Point, so it's already been bought and paid for by those points you kept for it. So in my example whilst you had 90pts left free at the end, you've used 50 for a command point, leaving just 40 for endless spell steals.

I don't see it as a biggy, as Tzeentch can summon units for free anyway and the worst amount you'll need to keep behind is 100pts if you're expecting a Purple Sun. It'll be harder to manage in the competitive scene (you'll have no idea what players will bring to a tourney til you get there), though in a friendly game with a friend, you should know they're gonna take X spell and know you'll only need X points behind to counter-steal that.

[RuneBrush]

The way I look at it, is the new edition has separated the army building bit of the game (i.e. the bit with points) away from the dice rolling bit of the game.  Based on how many points you've spent on your army list you gain command points and triumphs*, so armies are unlikely to gain a mechanic that would allow you to gain those plus potentially a "free" endless spell.

Thing is that Vessel of Chaos is still super powerful - the Cursling unbinds my regular spell and can then attempt to cast it - which I cannot unbind if they're successful!

* these are in essence underdog rewards rather than something you pay points for

[geekbrewer]

14 hours ago, RuneBrush said:

Thing is that Vessel of Chaos is still super powerful - the Cursling unbinds my regular spell and can then attempt to cast it - which I cannot unbind if they're successful!

I'm a Tzeentch player, and totally agree with you on this. For me, the best/most fun thing to try and do is unbind buff spells, and toss them on my units if I can.

I also have to say I find the Tzeentch summoning to be relatively lackluster.

[Olincay]

11 hours ago, geekbrewer said:

I'm a Tzeentch player, and totally agree with you on this. For me, the best/most fun thing to try and do is unbind buff spells, and toss them on my units if I can.

I also have to say I find the Tzeentch summoning to be relatively lackluster.

Compared to other summoning armies it's feeble at best. 

[daedalus81]

On 7/26/2018 at 3:40 AM, RuneBrush said:

Thing is that Vessel of Chaos is still super powerful - the Cursling unbinds my regular spell and can then attempt to cast it - which I cannot unbind if they're successful!

* these are in essence underdog rewards rather than something you pay points for

I always had high hopes for Villitch.  I never thought he'd be the source of complaints.  ?