AoS 2 - Wanderers Discussion

[Nick907]

On 12/27/2018 at 3:07 PM, Popisdead said:

The GG are better on that -3 then the SotW are better math hammer as the game progresses.  10 Sisters are far better than .5 better than 10 GG.  If they didn't have that alpha -3 GG would be pretty much useless.

But they do have it, and it is hard to think of a better attack then teleporting in with a 20" -3 rend shooting attack. Glade Guard also take damage better, since you'll only lose one shot per lost model. 

Sisters are better against chaos(situational), better if they don't move (Wanderers move alot), and better if they get charged (pretty awesome).  Otherwise Glade Guard slightly edge them out. 

Regular shooting conditions: 30 GG = 10 wounds, 20 SotW =  ~9 wounds.  Glade Guard win for the purposes of 'Protective Volley' and any table-edge teleportation attacks. The 'Arcane Bodkins' with  -3 rend only add to the Glade Guard's already higher value. 

[Aezeal]

13 hours ago, Nick907 said:

But they do have it, and it is hard to think of a better attack then teleporting in with a 20" -3 rend shooting attack. Glade Guard also take damage better, since you'll only lose one shot per lost model. 

Sisters are better against chaos(situational), better if they don't move (Wanderers move alot), and better if they get charged (pretty awesome).  Otherwise Glade Guard slightly edge them out. 

Regular shooting conditions: 30 GG = 10 wounds, 20 SotW =  ~9 wounds.  Glade Guard win for the purposes of 'Protective Volley' and any table-edge teleportation attacks. The 'Arcane Bodkins' with  -3 rend only add to the Glade Guard's already higher value. 

Teleporting doesn't count as having moved right? I thought that was the last consensus here backed up by some FAQ's etc.

[Nick907]

40 minutes ago, Aezeal said:

Teleporting doesn't count as having moved right? I thought that was the last consensus here backed up by some FAQ's etc.

I didn't think so but I could be wrong. It would make the SotW much more valuable if they can teleport and shoot twice. 

[adreal]

Teleporting does not count as moving, it's from the designers commentary from when 2.0 was first released, and I doubt it will change thanks to stormcast deep strike 

[WABBIT]

Yeah look further back in this thread (or the old version of this thread) this was debated before and GW confirmed it does not count as having moved making the sisters of the watch much better than glade guard are now and as our elite archers they should be.

[Aezeal]

2 minutes ago, WABBIT said:

Yeah look further back in this thread (or the old version of this thread) this was debated before and GW confirmed it does not count as having moved making the sisters of the watch much better than glade guard are now and as our elite archers they should be.

This is a completely incorrect statement.

They are elite archers because they are better per model regardless of points. And they've always been that. 

Balance means that both should be somewhat equal in effectiveness for their points or have different roles that have a somewhat equal value. Being elite is more a lore thing and doesn't (shouldn't) mean you they are more point effective.. that just makes them overpowered in comparison to the GG. 

Luckily there is still enough discussion about it so that probably means GW got it somewhat right..  both have similar roles as shooters but not quite the same (GG alpha) so that makes the exact comparison difficult enough for it to be an issue that isn't completely clear: both are used and both have fanbois in here.

[WABBIT]

On 12/29/2018 at 11:21 PM, Aezeal said:

This is a completely incorrect statement.

They are elite archers because they are better per model regardless of points. And they've always been that. 

Balance means that both should be somewhat equal in effectiveness for their points or have different roles that have a somewhat equal value. Being elite is more a lore thing and doesn't (shouldn't) mean you they are more point effective.. that just makes them overpowered in comparison to the GG. 

Luckily there is still enough discussion about it so that probably means GW got it somewhat right..  both have similar roles as shooters but not quite the same (GG alpha) so that makes the exact comparison difficult enough for it to be an issue that isn't completely clear: both are used and both have fanbois in here.

"This is a completely incorrect statement’’ That is a rather arrogant response.

You even agreed sisters of the watch are elite if only in lore so you’re argument is confused at best.

-Sisters of the watch don’t count as moving when they ‘teleport’  - that is correct.

-That this subject was debated earlier in this thread - also correct.

-SotW are considered elite- some may disagree but I’m pretty sure most agree glade guard are the rank and file while sotw are elite.

-I never mentioned points. So no statement error there either.

 

Sure they have different roles, more wounds for GG, objective grabbing, easier to move etc and rend is useful vs some armies so a mix is usually best. I’m allowed to voice opinion on which is best no need to dismiss it like that. I wasn’t trying to get into a huge in depth discussion again as it’s already been done. Power wise SoTW do better but there are many caveats and situational circumstances that can alter both units effectiveness. 

This is a friendly forum. This isn’t the first time you’ve had a go my posts. 

 

 

Edited January 7, 2019 by WABBIT

[adreal]

If nothing else the fact that sisters wound on 3s makes them 'better' then glade guard.

Glade guard have thier uses for sure, arcane bodkins is a great ability, they are cheaper in points and battleline. But they are the rank and file of wanderers and sisters are the elite version of archers, sure with less range, but they hit better, wound better and have more shots 

[overtninja]

Really it comes down to what you are fighting most of the time. If your local meta is heavy on Chaos players, SotW are pretty amazing. They also flourish in any meta where there aren't many shooting attacks. That said, a single DD spell directed at the unit will ravage it, and losing any models from the unit really hurts their output.

Ideally, you'd want a good balance of either. I'd say you should always take at least 20 GG for the alpha strike and objective holding, and generally speaking I'd only consider bringing them in groups of 20-30 if I brought a second group, because they really need the bonus to hit to work well, IMO.

I'm really not keen on going too heavy into ranged attacks, so really it's about efficiency and what other weight a ranged unit can lift.

[Aezeal]

On 12/30/2018 at 12:36 AM, WABBIT said:

‘This is a completely incorrect statement’’ and rather arrogant to boot.

You even agreed sisters of the watch are elite if only in lore so you’re argument is confused at best.

-Sisters of the watch don’t count as moving when they ‘teleport’  - that is correct.

-That this subject was debated earlier in this thread - also correct.

-SotW are considered elite- some may disagree but I’m pretty sure most agree glade guard are the rank and file while sotw are elite.

-I never mentioned points. So no statement error there either.

 

sure they have different roles, more wounds for gg objective grabbing, easier to move etc and rend is useful vs some armies so a mix is usually best. I’m allowed to voice opinion on which is best no need to dismiss it like that. I wasn’t trying to get into a huge in depth discussion again as it’s already been done. Power wise SoTW do better but there are many caveats and situational circumstances that can alter both units effectiveness. 

This is a friendly forum. This isn’t the first time you’ve had a go my posts. 

 

 

I think we don't understand each other (Maybe how I wrote the reply had something to do with that - and possibly I didn't understand your posts):

I didn't mean to say you where incorrect in your view on which of them was best. I actually didn't mean to go into that at all (except in the last paragraph). 

I meant to say: The fact they are elite is just based on the lore and  because they have better stats per model (which reflects the lore): we agree there since you say that in this reply too. Waywatchers where the elite archer unit and now sisters are (which makes me sad.. but that is another discussion).

The reason I found your reply incorrect was because you mentioned: they are better now as they should be because they are our elites and you mention this in relation to them getting a boost in effectiveness (the not moving rule in combination with teleporting - which is related ot balance.. which is reflected in points - which is why I mentioned them), my point is that: that rule is just a balance thing and doesn't make them elite.  for example: if they have that rule but GG where 80 points per 10 models the GG would be way better in game but that wouldn't make them the elite archers in the lore or per model in stats.. it would just mean GW hadn't balanced them correctly.  Or shorter:  whatever the rules: SotW are the elites in the lore so a mention of balance related stuff to them being elite is not relevant because they are seperate things in my opinion. 

Which is why I ended with the fact that balance wise there is no uniform conclusion on which of the 2 is better ingame so that means the balance must be about right. 

PM: I see you are also annoyed by me saying "completely" and I can see why that is. The first parts of your reply (the short one)  are obviously correct and I just meant to say that I found the last part  incorrect(I hope my explanation of why I thought it was  incorrect is  clear now - even if we might disagree on that because I still have that view). So while I will stand behind my reasoning of why 

On 12/30/2018 at 12:14 AM, WABBIT said:

making the sisters of the watch much better than glade guard are now and as our elite archers they should be.

 is incorrect. I will admit the rest was obviously fact  - as you mention in your latest reply and I'm sorry if my phrasing  of the reply using the word "completely" added insult to injury  disagreement, it was not intended that way so sorry for that. And if you still don't agree with my reasoning about the stuff above I hope we can just agree to disagree on that part. It was more intended as a sort of academic/irrelevant discussion.

 

On 1/1/2019 at 8:03 PM, overtninja said:

 

I'm really not keen on going too heavy into ranged attacks, so really it's about efficiency and what other weight a ranged unit can lift.

But wanderer melee isn't all that good for it's points (well EG isn't BAD.. but doesn't do much damage either).

Edited January 2, 2019 by Aezeal

[overtninja]

@Aezeal I'm planning on running 20 WWR in the upcoming tournament, as they are far and away our best melee, and are pretty points-efficient to boot, especially since my local meta is a bit of a monster mash (which I love, but need to address when building lists). I agree with EG being decent, but it's only when they park it and hold position that they excel, and even then, they are only excellent at dying very slowly. Exceptional tarpit/roadblock, but not much else. 😛

Anyway, I also bring Sylvaneth for additional melee oomph - I'm rolling out 20 next time I play to see how things go.

[WABBIT]

@Aezeal ok thanks for explaining. I probably overreacted however what I said it still not incorrect. It’s a conflicting opinion is all. We can agree to disagree but I do believe sotw are better and they should be being the elite archers since waywatchers were removed as woodelves. GG are battleline and have more accessibility, wounds per point cost, larger unit, rend one shot, easier to move and fire without losing effectiveness etc making them very useful to compliment the sotw. GG are also rubbish after they use their one shot rend and/or drop below the 20 models needed to retain 3+ to hit. Awful in combat with almost no armour. Not much worse than SotW granted. Having an opposing opinion doesn’t make it incorrect. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by WABBIT

[Aezeal]

7 hours ago, WABBIT said:

@Aezeal ok thanks for explaining. I probably overreacted however what I said it still not incorrect. It’s a conflicting opinion is all. We can agree to disagree but I do believe sotw are better and they should be being the elite archers since waywatchers were removed as woodelves. GG are battleline and have more accessibility, wounds per point cost, larger unit, rend one shot, easier to move and fire without losing effectiveness etc making them very useful to compliment the sotw. Having an opposing opinion doesn’t make it incorrect. 

I think you still don't understand the point I was trying to make (though you might disagree on that one too ofc) because I don't specifically disagree with you on that point (I have no opinion on which is best tbh and I certainly think both have a role in the army and complement each other). It was more about separating them being elite in the lore and better per model from total unit effectiveness and rules per point as I tried to explain but probably me not being a native english speaker/writer makes it hard to get the point across correctly or maybe I even didn't understand your post correctly.

 

On 1/2/2019 at 10:31 PM, Aezeal said:

I didn't mean to say you where incorrect in your view on which of them was best. I actually didn't mean to go into that at all (except in the last paragraph). 

But I'll leave it at this because I can't explain it better anyway

[The Red King]

Some work in progress shots of my Eternal guard with Dryad masks. Converted spellsinger. And a glowing way stone marker that turns on and off.

 

Edited January 6, 2019 by The Red King
Replaced a WIP shot.

[The Red King]

So not to double post but I had my first real game of AoS and wanderers today.

 

The mission was total conquest and the points were 750. 

 

My list was 

Nomad Prince w/ghyrstrike

Waywatcher general w/master hunter

Spellweaver + soulsnare shackles

 

10 eternal guard

10 sisters ×2

 

His list was 

 

Knight of shrouds

5 hexwraiths ×2

Black coach

 

I totally misplayed my deployment going for what looked thematic instead of what was tactical. End result all 10 of my eternal guard and the spellweaver died on his first turn. On my first turn I fired everything into his knight of shrouds and killed it (despite getting 1 wound from 9 hits on my waywatcher).

His turn 2 (we forgot to roll off to see if I could've gotten the double turn) the coach plus 5 wraiths charges one unit of sisters plus my HQ's  and wiped out all but 3 of the sisters (we forgot to battle shock them) and leaving the hqs wounded.

 

My turn 2 the small group of sisters shot up some of his wraiths as well as the hqs. Leaving one wounded sgt after combat. The large group of sisters stood and fired into his coach leaving it with ONE freaking wound.  My nomad prince who had fallen back to give his buff to them actually then took the last wound with his hawk.

 

His turn 3 (we rolled from now on but nobody got a double) he ran the wounded guy away and brought in the other 5 to charge my sisters. In the end all my sisters died to battle shock and he ended up with a 1 wound sgt left. At this point he knew he'd won on objectives but was just trying to not get tabled. Long story short the ghost horses couldnt outrun my arrows. So I wiped him out and then lost on VP. All in all... moral victory. I tabled a night haunt list with wanderers and killed a black coach with a hawk. I couldnt really play to the objectives because without standing still I couldnt kill him and without killing him I'd get tabled. So I did what I could.

[Gwendar]

Thanks for the quick report. Bringing a Black coach at that point value seems interesting...I think I would've opted for more bodies but I'd be super satisfied to do what you did with that list. Hopefully we see more batreps soon..

..Speaking of, the local GW is starting a slow grow league and I thought it a perfect time to finally start getting my Living City\Wanderers painted. First week is 500 points so I've kept it to 1 Waywatcher, 2x10 SotW. Unsure what I will be facing other than IJ and DoK, but I'll definitely share the batreps with you all along the way up until 2k... Assuming I have everything bought by then.

[The Red King]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Thanks for the quick report. Bringing a Black coach at that point value seems interesting...I think I would've opted for more bodies but I'd be super satisfied to do what you did with that list. Hopefully we see more batreps soon..

..Speaking of, the local GW is starting a slow grow league and I thought it a perfect time to finally start getting my Living City\Wanderers painted. First week is 500 points so I've kept it to 1 Waywatcher, 2x10 SotW. Unsure what I will be facing other than IJ and DoK, but I'll definitely share the batreps with you all along the way up until 2k... Assuming I have everything bought by then.

Yeah im in a slow grow too. And having run that same list at 500 allow me to suggest you drop 10 sisters for a nomad prince and 10 eternal guard. You really need some kind of speed bump to keep the ladies shooting and the rerolls from the prince are priceless. As far as tactical advice I'd reccomend deploying as far back as possible. Forget thematics just cheese the range because plenty of armies will turn 1 charge you and then the double turn will kill your entire army. Sad but true.

[overtninja]

I can happily report that a group of 20 Wildwood Rangers can basically chop through anything, which was really pleasing to learn. They do serious work against everything, but any monster that shows its face against that many attacks just gets mauled. It's just what the army needs to deal with serious threats that can't be purely shot away from the table, imo.

I also tested out the Soulbind Shackles, and they are pretty great at gumming up charges, which also helps with our general strategy of not being in melee with most of our army ever.

 

[Gwendar]

11 hours ago, The Red King said:

Yeah im in a slow grow too. And having run that same list at 500 allow me to suggest you drop 10 sisters for a nomad prince and 10 eternal guard. You really need some kind of speed bump to keep the ladies shooting and the rerolls from the prince are priceless. As far as tactical advice I'd reccomend deploying as far back as possible. Forget thematics just cheese the range because plenty of armies will turn 1 charge you and then the double turn will kill your entire army. Sad but true.

Well, I would consider that but I'm building into a Living City allegiance so no EG or Prince and would rather not proxy. I definitely planned to just pre-measure distances so everything will be kept back just fine. I know the army will be a little imbalanced at 500 with only shooting and will easily die to a stiff breeze, but honestly no-one else can really bring much to the table either.

I think once we get to the 1k\2k mark is when things will really get interesting once I can start dropping Dryads and Woods. Should lead to some significant sightline situations to create shooty chokepoints.

[Popisdead]

On 12/29/2018 at 3:36 PM, WABBIT said:

‘This is a completely incorrect statement’’ and rather arrogant to boot.

Not uncommon 

[Aezeal]

On 1/6/2019 at 12:57 AM, The Red King said:

Some work in progress shots of my Eternal guard with Dryad masks. Converted spellsinger. And a glowing way stone marker that turns on and off.

 

I like that spell singer

[Gwendar]

I don't typically post up pics of my minis outside of what's shown in batreps, but thought you all may want to check out my kit bashed/converted Waywatcher

[Gwendar]

So, our local GW started a slow-grow league today and I played four 500 point games. Disclaimer: Yes I know the list is not technically legal, the manager just wanted to get as many people in with no battleline requirements so they could play with whatever they have. However, from here on out the normal rules for battleline\allies will be in effect. No objectives were played either, we found them somewhat irrelevant at 500 anyway.

These are going to be a bit quicker and not as segmented as my typical batreps since the games were so short, so I apologize if everything bleeds together and if it's hard to understand the turn order.

The list
Allegiance: Wanderers
Waywatcher (120)
- General
- Trait: Eagle-eyed 
- Artefact: Starcaster Longbow 
10 x Sisters of the Watch (180)
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (200)
- Scythes
Total: 500 / 500

Game 1 - Daughters of Khaine - Loss
I'm chosen to go first so I immediately get the SotW into range who take out 10 Witch Aelves while the Waywatcher uses his wonderful 32" range to take some shots at the Hag Queen, knocking her down to 3 wounds left. Kurnoths get charged by unit of 20 Aelves and brace to get their re-roll failed saves (which really did save their lives quite a lot against all of those attacks) while the SotW get deleted by the remaining 10 Witches, but not after taking 3 with them thanks to the overwatch shooting.

Over the course of the game, the Kurnoths manage to get the large Witch unit down to only 3 models left while the Waywatcher finished off the smaller unit. The game actually ended with a Hag Queen and a single Witch charging my Waywatcher and finishing him off. Double turns are what really hurt me here, along with not properly gauging the distance of Witches that can run and charge. My first game with Wanderers, so I was happy overall.



Game 2 - Skaven Pestilens - Win
This was a fun one. I win priority again but let him go first. Teleport the SotW out of the woods thanks to my wonderful deployment to be just in range of shooting... but that was a bad call as I had the room to put them behind the Plague Monks but opted to get right in their faces. Shooting took out 10 Monks and the Waywatcher whiffed on the Furnace and only took it down to 10 wounds, which includes the free MW from the artifact. SotW get charged and deleted while I remiss the fact I could've overwatch shot them. Kurnoths end up charging the bigger unit of 20 Monks and absolutely...whiff and 1 1/2 Kurnoths die on the counter attack. He brings his Furnace and small unit of 4 Monks around to flank the Waywatcher, but I teleported as far away as possible and kill off the small unit of monks. Meanwhile, the Kurnoths finally decide to aim their swings properly and finish off the larger monk unit. As shown in the picture below, we call the game there since he only has a Furnace left and I would just continue to teleport the Waywatcher away and take pot shots until it exploded.

Like I said, I really enjoyed this one and so did my opponent. Realm Wanderers works ridiculously well on a Waywatcher with Eagle Eye trait.



Game 3 - Disciples of Tzeentch - Win
A nice, swingy game right until the end. I lost priority and went first, got the 10 SotW teleported to the back-right side of the board to kill an astonishing 3 Pink Horrors. His herald had Look out, Sir + Gryph-Feather charm so I opted to shoot at the Flamers and killed 2. His turn saw the complete annihilation of the SotW and Bolt of Tzeentch killed off a Kurnoth as I mistakenly killed off my Huntmaster, oh well. At this point I was feeling a bit defeated, however I pressed on by charging in the Kurnoths and made just enough of a roll to get them into the Herald who managed to live with 1 wound remaining. He chipped away at my Kurnoths through counter attacks\spells\shooting and managed to bring my last tree down to 1 wound, but not after he finished off the Herald to ensure no summoning shenanigans could happen...then thing's got crazy. He wins the roll-off and I make around 4-5 saves with 1 wound left and managed to kill all but 3 Pinks. I don't think he had any 1's to use from his Destiny Dice, so luckily no regeneration happened. Waywatcher shooting finishes off the Pinks while the last Kurnoths puts an end to last Flamer.

Long story short; never give up as things can always swing back in your favor by getting that 1 charge, so I think Tzeentch was a bit on my side this game. All I know is that if I didn't kill that Herald when I did, thing's would've gone a little differently due to his summoning.

Game 4 - Seraphon - Draw\Out of time
So, I'll be honest, this wasn't a great game for either of us as we were rushed for time before closing. With only ~30 minutes to play, we speed-played a bit and my opponent forgot a ton of his rules upon later reflection. I win priority and let him go first. The Waywatcher gets some shots into the only thing visible and takes out 2 Saurus Knights while the SotW get behind the 10 Saurus Warriors and kill 3 if I recall. He wins next turn and does 5 MW's with his artifact into my SotW and then teleports his Saurus Sunblood 9" away from my Waywatcher. He gets the Sunblood charged into my Waywatcher along with remaining Warriors into my SotW (guess who forgot to overwatch shoot again?). The Sunblood gets the Waywatcher down 1 wound and the SotW take out 2 Warriors. In my turn I decide to completely forget about teleporting my nearly dead Waywatcher and opt to instead shoot the Sunblood point blank for a total of 3 wounds + 1 MW from the longbow, however the 2 remaining SotW manage to finish off the Warriors. I charge the Knights\Scar Veteran and kill all but 1 wound of the Knights and bring the Scar Veteran down to 4 remaining despite being hit with Starlight for a -1 to hit. The Sunblood then punches my Waywatcher in the face to end that combat. He wins priority again and charges the Sunblood into the Kurnoths, but this is where we ran out of time and had to call it.

Overall, I don't know how this would've played out in the end. Had he remembered his rules and not felt so pressured (hence it was difficult to concentrate) it could've definitely gone in his favor as I only had the Kurnoths and 2 SotW left against 3 heroes, one of which was rather punchy and the Starpriest could have easily got off a good spell.



Overall thoughts
I'm really liking Wanderers, although I am building this army into a Living City allegiance over pure Wanderers (mostly because I don't want to paint elves anymore...). Despite teleporting being nerfed, I still had some good use out of it. I think the biggest thing for me to work on is better teleport placement since it usually ends up being a death sentence for the SotW after the first round of shooting. Looking forward to posting some more of these in the coming weeks as the higher point games should be more interesting. Thanks for those of you who read through the text wall.

Edited January 13, 2019 by Gwendar

[overtninja]

@Gwendar Looks like a pretty solid run with a limited list! It's hard to do much interesting with Wanderers at 500, but looks like you did solidly.

I'd had great luck being aggressive with my dudes on the teleport - sniping characters with a small unit is great, but sending a big block of GG across the field to claim on objective and pelt things from behind is awesome, and teleporting 20 WWR into your opponent's flank and charging can be absolutely awful for them to deal with, especially since our ranged power lets us severely blunt the capability of scary infantry blocks.

I have been building a Sylvaneth army, since my Wanderers is basically complete up to 2.5k, so I'd love to hear what your experiences end up being with a Living City army!

[Gwendar]

@overtninja Like I said, that 32" range on the Waywatcher definitely helped quite alot. For our 1k week I'm adding 30 GG and another Waywatcher to the list, so I will have a bit more to think about in terms of that first alpha strike between teleporting the GG or the SotW.

Leaning more towards the SotW since they benefit from not moving up the board, although I imagine that will depend on what my opponent brings. If the Tzeentch player decides to bring along a Lord of Change, you better believe those GG will be teleported behind it to potentially kill\cripple it turn 1. The only thing I worry about with Living City is getting off Woods reliably, although it works well enough without them so it isn't crippling if I don't get them off.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Gwendar