AoS 2 - Wanderers Discussion

[Popisdead]

3 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

Just to chime in on the Ally talk, i've never understood why they don't allow Wood Elves to be taken as allies for Wanderers. Fluff aside they're not game changing warscrolls and would allow people to field some of their cool old models that they PAID GW money for.

Long standing beef that BoC got Centigors back (which they bloody well should have) and we don't have Wardancers a dragon or Orion.  FFS GW figure it out already.  

 

I should add that I'm playing my wanderers next and since it is just a pickup game with a friend, I don't play tournaments he's okay with me using older Warscrolls where Wood Elves had the Wanderer keyword so I can play an army with my collection.  

I think people need to stop chasing the 2-3 Tournament top players in these threads and revisit what their aim in the game is.  I'm playing friends and we don't care for the meta.  GW is pushing narrative and open play but they need to remember, in those games people still use Matched Play points nad get caught up with "oh this doesn't have points so I can't use it"

Edited June 21, 2019 by Popisdead

[Hagbean]

Just now, Popisdead said:

IMO that is a better combo.

I have 10 SotW and probably 20 2005-era Waywatchers which I'm using also as SotW.  I'm sure you can score some old WW as well.  I would also suggest if cash is a problem any old HE or WE archers are fine so long as they aren't specifically the same models as your GG.

Cheers for the suggestions, I do have a fair few WW kicking about so might be able to scrounge together a block of 10. I've been looking into conversions/cheap options but I might just end up biting the bullet and dropping some cash on the sisters, they look absolutely fantastic and the bows are brilliant tbf.

1 minute ago, Popisdead said:

Long standing beef that BoC got Centigors back (which they bloody well should have) and we don't have Wardancers a dragon or Orion.  FFS GW figure it out already.  

I just don't get it, it really wouldn't required any work from them whatsoever, and it would please a good chunk of the community.

[Popisdead]

8 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

Just to chime in on the Ally talk, i've never understood why they don't allow Wood Elves to be taken as allies for Wanderers. 

I was just thinking about this... if you house rule Wood Elves as allies and grant them the new Wanderer keyword, Wardancers with Sisters of the Thorn bounce Mortal Wounds back on a 4+.  I might try that with a block of 20.

[Hagbean]

2 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

I was just thinking about this... if you house rule Wood Elves as allies and grant them the new Wanderer keyword, Wardancers with Sisters of the Thorn bounce Mortal Wounds back on a 4+.  I might try that with a block of 20.

YIKES that would be mean, I love it!

[Carnith]

19 minutes ago, Hagbean said:

YIKES that would be mean, I love it!

Throw them in cover for a 3+ bounce. 

[awcamawn]

39 minutes ago, Popisdead said:

"oh this doesn't have points so I can't use it"

The good news is that all the compendium units got their points reprinted in the new GHB, so all the old wood aelf stuff is now 100% matched play legal again. I miss my Wardancers and Waywatchers...

[Rahatlin]

Theres definetly a reason why they removed keyword, propably $$ related?  Wood elves are no more- so maybe they want people to steadily replace them

What i cant understand is how they added whole faction of new elves (sea) without sorting out old ones first... i mean, only freaking which elves got book so far ehhh...

Just looking at other armies with books nas new models makes you feel elves are kidna left on the side 😕 not to mention unit variety and warscrolls :V

[Popisdead]

2 hours ago, awcamawn said:

The good news is that all the compendium units got their points reprinted in the new GHB, so all the old wood aelf stuff is now 100% matched play legal again. I miss my Wardancers and Waywatchers...

They did?!?!?!  That's huge.  

1 hour ago, Rahatlin said:

Theres definetly a reason why they removed keyword, propably $$ related?  Wood elves are no more- so maybe they want people to steadily replace them

What i cant understand is how they added whole faction of new elves (sea) without sorting out old ones first... i mean, only freaking which elves got book so far ehhh...

Just looking at other armies with books nas new models makes you feel elves are kidna left on the side 😕 not to mention unit variety and warscrolls :V

100%.  I also don't blame or discredit GW for making AoS its' own thing and the armies really do need to fit in properly.  I get that things evolve and companies need to keep making money.  

[overtninja]

Seems people think that GG aren't a very good choice given the points reduction of SotW - and this is correct, excepting for the fact that GG can move and still be effective, while SotW suffer greatly. As such, I think it's probably best to go with one big block of GG and then use two groups of SotW with a WW general, or two blocks of WWR with a WF general to fill your battleline, depending on whether you want to go ranged-heavy or with more melee.

 

[Carnith]

Hey, messing around with a wanderers list cause Wood Elves are cool 

Allegiance: Wanderers
Nomad Prince (80)
Waywatcher (120)
- General
Spellweaver (100)
- Heartwood Staff
Wayfinder (100)
Wayfinder (100)
20 x Eternal Guard (140)
20 x Eternal Guard (140)
20 x Sisters of the Watch (360)
20 x Sisters of the Watch (360)
30 x Glade Guard (360)
5 x Sisters of the Thorn (220)
Soulsnare Shackles (20)
Quicksilver Swords (20)

Total: 2120 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 145
 

Ideally, if we could use waywatchers from wood elves as allies, I would drop the glade guard for 15 waywatchers just for the harder hits. 
The idea is that spread the eternal guard out with the gun line behind it. Shackles to slow things down, and swords cause swords. While the list is over points, i beleive I accounted for all point changes. I dont own anything close to the list, but just an idea. 

[Rusty293]

13 hours ago, Popisdead said:

I was just thinking about this... if you house rule Wood Elves as allies and grant them the new Wanderer keyword, Wardancers with Sisters of the Thorn bounce Mortal Wounds back on a 4+.  I might try that with a block of 20.

It's funny really, GW could just give the old Wood Elf units the Wanderer keyword back, put them all in a book and hey presto we'd probably all go out and buy it! 

[GladeRider]

13 hours ago, Hagbean said:

Just to chime in on the Ally talk, i've never understood why they don't allow Wood Elves to be taken as allies for Wanderers. Fluff aside they're not game changing warscrolls and would allow people to field some of their cool old models that they PAID GW money for.

i think communities should push just like videogames communities do to make "warhammer" move his ass

Edited June 22, 2019 by GladeRider

[Popisdead]

8 hours ago, GladeRider said:

i think communities should push just like videogames communities do to make "warhammer" move his ass

Well GW puts out the yearly survey and "what do you want" thread on FB once a year. make your voice known.   

[Zanzou]

20 hours ago, overtninja said:

Seems people think that GG aren't a very good choice given the points reduction of SotW - and this is correct, excepting for the fact that GG can move and still be effective...

 

They can move and be "effective" for one turn in the whole game.  Sisters of the watch beat even that one turn if they stay still.  SotW seem just as effective when moving on every other turn.  I just don't see that being worth it sadly. They need to rebalance, (yes, ALREADY )

[overtninja]

47 minutes ago, Zanzou said:

They can move and be "effective" for one turn in the whole game.  Sisters of the watch beat even that one turn if they stay still.  SotW seem just as effective when moving on every other turn.  I just don't see that being worth it sadly. They need to rebalance, (yes, ALREADY )

After their initial shots, I tend to use them to hold objectives, or as screens against strong charging units. They can also operate from outside of 6" of the table edge, while SotW pretty much want to park themselves there and teleport around to get the bonus shots. They can also be fielded in groups of 30 - which isn't a bad idea at this point with the reductions to other troops. Remember, raw damage output is not the only stat in the game.

[GM_Monkey]

35 minutes ago, overtninja said:

After their initial shots, I tend to use them to hold objectives, or as screens against strong charging units. They can also operate from outside of 6" of the table edge, while SotW pretty much want to park themselves there and teleport around to get the bonus shots. They can also be fielded in groups of 30 - which isn't a bad idea at this point with the reductions to other troops. Remember, raw damage output is not the only stat in the game.

As I just recently discover Sister of the Watch can also be fielded in groups of 30 as well

[GladeRider]

On 6/22/2019 at 5:53 PM, Popisdead said:

Well GW puts out the yearly survey and "what do you want" thread on FB once a year. make your voice known.   

Cool i'll make 1 big post next year..

[Aelfric]

After looking through the "Regiments of Renown" tables, specifically the "Marksman" table, I've been wondering which would best benefit from the "Stand and Shoot" ability.  At first, the obvious choice was SotW, but I'm now wondering whether GG with 2 attacks each might not be better overall.  Obviously this is a Narrative Play addition, but the options look pretty nice if that's what you play.

[Rahatlin]

Hey everyone.

Gonna throw another one of these unit vs unit question 😉

20x Ethernal Guard (140pts)

OR

10x Phoenix Guard (140pts) (ally)

 

Please discuss 😊

[awcamawn]

4 hours ago, Rahatlin said:

20x Ethernal Guard (140pts)

OR

10x Phoenix Guard (140pts) (ally)

The correct answer is always going to be rule of cool here: if you're tempted to take some Phoenix Guard, go for it! They're super resistant to mortal wounds, have quality attacks, and can reroll 1s to charge (and Aura of Dread is pretty nifty if it ever comes up).

But in a Wanderers army, Eternal Guard are battleline - which is potentially more important than anything else. They also get double the number of models per point, which is key for holding objectives against large enemy units. The units nominally have equal bravery, but Eternal Guard will reroll battleshock in a Wanderers army while allied Phoenix Guard will not. Fortress of Boughs not only allows Eternal Guard to match the Phoenix Guard's attacks and save rolls per point (both get 21 attacks on 3+/3+ and one has 20 wounds on a  4+ and the other has 10 wounds on a 4++), but it also makes Eternal Guard have more synergy with Shield of Thorns compared to Phoenix Guard as the +1 modifier is more important than the base armor save there. And naturally only the Eternal Guard can properly synergize with the Nomad Prince, Waywatcher, and Spellweaver to reroll 1's, get -1 to enemy shooting attacks, and return d3 models to life. To me, Eternal Guard win out as a highly efficient choice in a Wanderer army while the Phoenix Guard are a great choice in a mixed order army.

[sal4m4nd3r]

You guys have been so incredibly welcoming to a new wanderers player, so thank you for that!

I scored 60 glade guard and a way watcher for $60. I also have $260 in store credit from winning a painting competition at a GT with my nurgle army. Thinking of loading up on SotW and eternal guard/WWR boxes. Could of the WR/SotT. Looking to fire the waystone pathfinders. 

Im so excited! A little sad to hear GG aren’t that worth it! They are such nostalgic models!

[overtninja]

18 hours ago, Aelfric said:

After looking through the "Regiments of Renown" tables, specifically the "Marksman" table, I've been wondering which would best benefit from the "Stand and Shoot" ability.  At first, the obvious choice was SotW, but I'm now wondering whether GG with 2 attacks each might not be better overall.  Obviously this is a Narrative Play addition, but the options look pretty nice if that's what you play.

SotW have a stand-and-shoot ability on their warscroll, which is part of the reason that they are so good. If you can give them an additional attack, they'd have 4 shots each if they don't move - per model, resulting in an idiotic number of shots for the unit.

Otherwise, going with additional shots on the GG would be pretty solid, I think, for their once-a-game volley.

[Aelfric]

2 hours ago, overtninja said:

SotW have a stand-and-shoot ability on their warscroll, which is part of the reason that they are so good. If you can give them an additional attack, they'd have 4 shots each if they don't move - per model, resulting in an idiotic number of shots for the unit.

Otherwise, going with additional shots on the GG would be pretty solid, I think, for their once-a-game volley.

Yes, that's what first made me think of SotW.  It would also apply to their "loose until the Last" ability when charged - you'd have to be pretty confident to charge into 40 arrows.  On the other hand, is it better to make a weaker unit more effective or a stronger unit even stronger, and spreading your eggs over more than one basket?  GG putting out 60 shots even without rend would be pretty amazing (at 20" range) and would give your opponent more thought about which should be the priority target - 30 GG or 20 SotW.  Put it on the Sisters and they are definitely the no 1 target.

[Rahatlin]

14 hours ago, awcamawn said:

The correct answer is always going to be rule of cool here: if you're tempted to take some Phoenix Guard, go for it! They're super resistant to mortal wounds, have quality attacks, and can reroll 1s to charge (and Aura of Dread is pretty nifty if it ever comes up).

But in a Wanderers army, Eternal Guard are battleline - which is potentially more important than anything else. They also get double the number of models per point, which is key for holding objectives against large enemy units. The units nominally have equal bravery, but Eternal Guard will reroll battleshock in a Wanderers army while allied Phoenix Guard will not. Fortress of Boughs not only allows Eternal Guard to match the Phoenix Guard's attacks and save rolls per point (both get 21 attacks on 3+/3+ and one has 20 wounds on a  4+ and the other has 10 wounds on a 4++), but it also makes Eternal Guard have more synergy with Shield of Thorns compared to Phoenix Guard as the +1 modifier is more important than the base armor save there. And naturally only the Eternal Guard can properly synergize with the Nomad Prince, Waywatcher, and Spellweaver to reroll 1's, get -1 to enemy shooting attacks, and return d3 models to life. To me, Eternal Guard win out as a highly efficient choice in a Wanderer army while the Phoenix Guard are a great choice in a mixed order army.

Thanks. Thats interesting read, and i do agree to solid points you mentioned. However, i gave it a tough and ran some numbers and i came to some conclusios, allow me to throw in some interesting arguments (Hopefully) 

Please dont threat it as me trying to disagreem but rather i thry to find holes in your arguments so i can make better decision regarding army composition ( and hopefully anyone whos reading)

Depending on what role your EG fill, i mainly focused on Anvil (Objective Defend) or Chaff/Screen unit for our SotW/GG/Other units when advancing to claim objective.  I read all posts here, and looking at Wanderers unit roster i feel we are good with objective defending, but lack at attacking one - or rather i should say i belive our disadvantage is that we need too sacrifice too many units to be able to defendobjectives, and this leave us with unsufficient amount of units to apply pressure on enemy objectives, so there is no need for enemy to divert forces, so they can push harder and so on. Thats why i embarked onto a jurney to find best defensive unit i can find among wanderers and their allies - and oh boy, Phoenix Guard are one of best out there

Anvil / Defending Line Scenario

Now, this is all great when you park your EG on objective, starting turn 1,  activate FoB for 3+/3+ and 4+Save, throw in some Spellweaver for resses and keep Nomad Prince nearby (8'') for buffs you mentioned.

Testring against 20x  3+/3+ R1/R2/R3 Attacks

When i ran the numbers - it all looks similar to Phoenix Guard results when Saving wounds from Rend 0. Tehnicly they should widstand similar amount of turns, or more with little luck with ressurection.  Sure, PG save more (average 50% more hence unmodified save on 4+) But EG still equals it with sheer voliume + resses

BUT, the more Rend enemy have, the more EG falls behind. At Rend -2 EG looses alot more models , even with rerrolling 1s, it dosnt do much when you save on 6+.  

Battleshock: As you know, having bigger voliume is beneficial - but when you loose alot of models each turn, Bettleshock test becomes issue. After first battleround, EG looses average 7 models (VS rend -1) , after that round they have 7+1 bravery, which means you need to roll 1 on dice, anything more is amount of extra models you loose. So it basicly snowballs more, more you loose, more battleshock looses and so on.  Now this is tricky to count (afterall its same % to roll any number on dice), so for a sake of argument i counted Batteshock test was 3 - which means first bettleround you lost 10 models.

It gets even worse, when you facing something dealing Mortar Wounds or Rend -3.  My thinking here is: enemy player will want to take that objective, unless he cant or does not play very good - he willuse his attacking units to do that effectively - so something big and scarry with alot of rend or MW output.

Now. Theres one more thing to consider, Spellweaver and Nomad Prince buffs synergy. This is all sweet, BUT except keeping your objective safe - you also want to take objective, while well positioned spellweaver can potentially reach both places for ressurection, it can be tricky or imposible depending on scenario, and you need to pick whatever he will ress your defense or offence lines. Your nomad prince buff is only 8"", which means if he is here defending objective with EG, he cannot be in the front line - and this is huge - becouse you want your NP to be there becouse of Protective Villey to help you claim that objective.

There is also Shield of Thorns you mentioned - Similar to NP and Spellweaver it would mean your SoTT need to be left on defensive position, which is all good, since their spell and javelins are perfect to buff and throw from behind line,  BUT this is huge 210 points which could give you additional 10 Phoenix Guard and 10 EG at top of it, or extra 30 EG. Then there is also Dispell possibility.  As many people mentioned, i do agree SoTT are not worth their points, maybe except particular enemies or very specific army build.

TLTR: Anvil Scenario

To put it very short and simple - PG looses half the models EG does every combat round, this snoballs in Battlehock phase increasing lost models count for EG. You can compensate this extra by having Speallweaver in range, but this means you need dedicated Spellweaver becouse rest of your army could be far away

EG looses more , the more Rend/MW enemy can output.

On average, PG can witstand 1-2 turns of combat more, thanks to their 4+ unmodified save, more if enemy has mortal wounds/rend 3

Nomad Prince synegy again means that your NP needs to be basicly at the objective, this potentially limit Protective Volley usage - then you need to put some shooting units nearby for PV to even have effect at defending your objective leaving your attacking line weaker

Now there is question about sheer numbers to actually claim victory point when defending objective - which is another discussio, but talking 20 PG should migitate that issue (?)

Chaff / Attacking Line

Taking all i pointed above into consideration, EG looses more on first round of combat before they activate FoB, considering you are attacking the objective, EG moving in front of your force to stop charges for extra shooting round + Protective Volley.

But due to their unique ability to turn from chaff into anvil makes them great candidate for advancing chaff unit that can turn into anvil next turn, but its better if you will charge on second half of battleround so your opponent cannot take double turn - so it needs positioning, but that also counts towards PG.

I think most of my arguments stand here aswell, and considering PG does not loose on value when moving their position here is even stronger (?), but i think their lack of synergy pays more price in attacking line, and sheer numbers of EG you can put out serve better here since you can screen from more directions / cover more of the field to secure your main shooting line.

TLTR

Becouse your NP and WW are here, synergy pays up more. Becouse of more numbers EG can cover more ground and secure your battleline from more directions.

Final toughts:

Just to be clear, i thing EG are amazing for their points worth with unique ability to be screen/anvil unit if nessecarry - every wanderer army should field at least 20 of those guys

Battleline Argument is very solid one, especially when you dont want WW to be your general - this is something im struggling with atm, since i want Mist Walker on my Nomad Prince

My conclusion is that PG are excellent at defending points when you dont want to spend too much forces on supporting defensive line ( which is whole point of this conversation), but they propably need to be taken in block of 20 to account for sheer numbers when counting models for Objective Claim. 

Having said that i think i am step closer to include them inside my roster, and i would love to hear more experienced players input on this

Not to mention its much less pain to paint 10/20 PG tather than 20/40 EG

 

Cheers!

 

[GM_Monkey]

On 6/24/2019 at 3:39 PM, sal4m4nd3r said:

....

Im so excited! A little sad to hear GG aren’t that worth it! They are such nostalgic models!

I wouldn't say they are not worth it, they are worth it. They shoot further, they can move and shoot and the -3 rend makes your opponent really have to think. 

I still take 30 of them and they will probably always have a place in my army, it's just the points reduced sisters now out perform GG even with the -3 rend.