Gwendar Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 On 8/19/2018 at 9:18 PM, adreal said: Yeah I used the same list, and just took the extra command point, in pretty much every game having that extra cp in my list helped alot. As this tournament didn't use any extended realm rules or malign sorcery I just had our 6 to go with, I took the splinterbirch blade on my nomad prince (this I would change as he barely saw combat) and the shawl on my spellweaver (fantastic, easily our best relic). I took eagle eyes on a waywatcher which I ended up making use of in every game, so I was very happy with that choice, even though stalker would have helped every now and then (last game against skaven especially) Had you considered a 2nd unit of 20 GG over one of the sisters units? I'm trying to justify it, and (assuming that the sisters do not get double shots by moving) would it be any better to not be penalized for moving/shooting, 2" extra range and another unit to have a -3 rend shot on? I suppose I'm not taking the shooting when being charged into account, but I think the whole point is to keep moving away in order to shoot more and I assumed the GG could potentially do that better with twice the shots, even with 4s/4s. How often were you able to keep your Sisters in range and not moving in order to benefit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Sisters v glade guard is a age old discussion. There is pros and cons to both, but with the points drop sisters edge out for me because they wound on 3s. Now yes, sisters are hurt more from moving, but realm wandering doesnt count as moving, which is a plus for them, but there will be times when they cant shoot or they have to move. Glade guard are amazing at alpha strikes, and can be a thorn throughout the game, but they do have a very large footprint and are rubbish outside of shooting. Both units can work, and while I was happy with my glade guard, my three units of sisters also worked wonders. I'm also a fan of aelves being more elite then horde like, so that also factored into my list design choice 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Ah, see I thought it would count as a move considering the wording of it being "this counts as that unit's move for this movement phase". If that isn't the case then that definitely elevates them, plus I wouldn't mind as much if sisters got charged due to the better melee profile+shooting on charged. Most local players have been quite aggressive with the way the play, no matter the army. Looking forward to seeing how the deal with the constant teleporting/shooting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 I think it's in the 2nd ed designers commentary, they cant move but for abilities they count as stationary 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 Found it 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 11 hours ago, adreal said: Sisters v glade guard is a age old discussion. One thing to consider is the Glade Guard models are 13 years old, the Sisters are 4. The aesthetic of the Sisters fits more with modern AoS armies and would look not-out-of-place on 32 mm bases. The GG show their age compared to more recent elf kits. As far as rules it is the alpha strike vs long game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aezeal Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 3 hours ago, Popisdead said: One thing to consider is the Glade Guard models are 13 years old, the Sisters are 4. The aesthetic of the Sisters fits more with modern AoS armies and would look not-out-of-place on 32 mm bases. The GG show their age compared to more recent elf kits. As far as rules it is the alpha strike vs long game. Are GG really that impressive as alpha strike? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 22, 2018 Share Posted August 22, 2018 6 hours ago, Aezeal said: Are GG really that impressive as alpha strike? Squad of 30 pop up and bodkins is pretty potent, makes them a bigger target then they should be Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aezeal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 6 hours ago, adreal said: Squad of 30 pop up and bodkins is pretty potent, makes them a bigger target then they should be But still it's not THAT much damage for their points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 Oh for sure, but I feel this is more of a problem that we are a general handbook army rather then a battletome army. Seeing as the best way to alpha strike with gladeguard is to sacrifice pretty much every buff we have (re roll 1s, -1 to hit, shooting of you roll a 1 on battleshock), what they do do on the table is okay at best. With bodkins whatever wounds they do do, should result in a kill, and then they are usually targeted, or ignored and you have 31 now shots to deal with next turn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frozenbeast Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 More than alpha strike I would call it burst dmg vs sustained dmg from sisters. I think we did the math back when ghb2018 came out and realised GG are actually not our main dmg sourse anymore as after bodkins is used they are pretty much a tickle to enemy units. Also the - 3 is useful against heavy armour units while sisters are better in all other situations granted they can trigger their ability. I guess one big unit of GG you still need to field it but no more than that? Though I guess it comes down to player preferences but the fact we cannot move as easily as we did in 2017 and the big footprint change things a bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aezeal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I guess the problem is we don't have anything else with decent rend.. but I'm wondering wether going sisters for range and then allying scythe hunters for rend wouldn't be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM_Monkey Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) Here's the number I posted on the last topic as they are still relevant here. Taking 30 Glade Guard, 20 Sister of the Watch and 3 Waywatchers all at 360 points you get against both Order and Chaos targets with a 4+ save At their best Sisters of the Watch are the better unit to take now with the points reduction. The Glade Guard are best only once per game if you're not playing Chaos. The Waywatcher are always average even if they move, and Sister of the Watch are worst against non-chaos and moving. This does not take into account range, save or wounds or any other bonus. Oh and yes the Glade Guard Alpha strike can and has taken down 10 or less wound models so it can take out that big scary monster in the back but after that you're doing around half the damage. Personally I take 1 unit of 30 Glade Guard and 20 sisters and 2 Waywatchers. (Changed the number of Sister of the Watch, Thanks Aezeal) Edited August 24, 2018 by GM_Monkey 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I went with 30 glade guard, 3 units of 10 sisters and 2 waywatchers. I was very happy with how they all performed. I am looking at taking another waywatcher 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aloth_Corfiser Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 (edited) Maybe I will have a casual Game next week against 2 Friends, one is fielding Nurgle and the other one is a Khorne Player. I already have lost against both of them, it was always a lot of fun though It will be a 2 vs 2, (1000 P. for each player) and I am allied to a guy who can field a huge variety of Units (Stormcasts, Sylvaneth, Kharadron Overlords and Ironweld Arsenal) --> We will just see what he will come up with 2 Weeks ago he had 2 artillery pieces, Neave Blacktalon, A Celestial Ballista, 3 Longstricke Crossbow -Stormcasts, and a variety of Arcanauts and Liberatots as Battleline in addition to a variety of Units I am unable to remember at the moment. Anyway, as I am fighting mainly Chaos I wish to expand on the SoTW (currently I am only able to field 10) to stand a Chance. My meagre Army consists of the following: 1x Waywatcher (General with Eagle Eyed Trait?) 1x Nomad Prince (Splinterbirch Blade ?) 1x Wayfinder 5x Sisters of the Thorn 10 Eternal Guard 16 Glade Guard (paying the Cost for 20) or I will just take 10 and my ally comes up with something else as he always brings huge loads of models 10 Sisters of the Watch All in all including the cost for 20 GG it will come up to 1010 Points. I am sorry that I can not provide any more Detail on my ally as we are only sporadically in touch through a different forum. However my (arch)enemies can possibly field: Khorne: Skarbrand, 1x Skullcannon / 1x Bloodthrone, More than 20 Bloodletters, 3 Mighty Skullcrushers, 3 Bloodcrushers, 1x Slaughterpriest, 10 Chaos Warriors with Hand Weapons and Shields, 10 Bloodwarriors and 2 Khorgoraths Nurgle: Gutrot Spume, 10 Blightkings, 3 Plague Drones, 20 Plague Bearers, 3 Nurglings, 1 Spoilpox Scrivener, 1 Poxbringer Herald of Nurgle and Feculent Gnarlmaws If you are interested I could write up some sketchy Battlereport next week. Sorry in advance for the Wall of Text and the Mess. I am very open to some Suggestions. Edited August 23, 2018 by Aloth_Corfiser Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
adreal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 I wouldnt worry about the splinterbirch blade on the nomad prince, the extra rend is nice, but giving him the starcaster longbow would be better 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aezeal Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 5 hours ago, GM_Monkey said: Here's the number I posted on the last topic as they are still relevant here. Taking 30 Glade Guard, 30 Sister of the Watch and 3 Waywatchers all at 360 points you get against both Order and Chaos targets with a 4+ save At their best Sisters of the Watch are the better unit to take now with the points reduction. The Glade Guard are best only once per game if you're not playing Chaos. The Waywatcher are always average even if they move, and Sister of the Watch are worst against non-chaos and moving. This does not take into account range, save or wounds or any other bonus. Oh and yes the Glade Guard Alpha strike can and has taken down 10 or less wound models so it can take out that big scary monster in the back but after that you're doing around half the damage. Personally I take 1 unit of 30 Glade Guard and 20 sisters and 2 Waywatchers. 20 sisters right? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 23, 2018 Share Posted August 23, 2018 5 hours ago, GM_Monkey said: Here's the number I posted on the last topic as they are still relevant here. Taking 30 Glade Guard, 30 Sister of the Watch and 3 Waywatchers all at 360 points you get against both Order and Chaos targets with a 4+ save At their best Sisters of the Watch are the better unit to take now with the points reduction. The Glade Guard are best only once per game if you're not playing Chaos. The Waywatcher are always average even if they move, and Sister of the Watch are worst against non-chaos and moving. Personally I take 1 unit of 30 Glade Guard and 20 sisters and 2 Waywatchers. It would be 20 sisters. And I agree, I would never take more than 30 GG, for that -3 rend (hearing Rhelion on the Facehammer podcast say Nagash has a spell or item to ignore rend means GG just became a little more outdated as we move along) and 2 or 3 x 10 Sisters (if you wanted the battalion. I still love my Glade Guard (having owned 90 at one point) and they are still fun models to paint. I did the same math over 5 turns (I used a Nomad Prince though). Sadly I started to see the appeal of the 90 Ungor Raider list and why one of the forumers is doing well in tournaments with that list and how Wanderers are lacking. Tempted to convert my GG to Raiders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM_Monkey Posted August 24, 2018 Share Posted August 24, 2018 17 hours ago, Aezeal said: 20 sisters right? Sorry that was a typo, 20 Sisters (360 points 21 attacks doubles to 42 attacks) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevar Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Hey guys, just a clarification on Sisters of the Watch needed. It specifies that they can 'attack twice' if they did not move, it does not say they get +1 attack. The reason I am a bit confused, is that the leader shoots twice already. People keep suggesting the leader gets an additional shot if she doesn't move... So... do they get +1 shot from not moving, or do they get a second attack sequence from not moving. For the most part this results in nearly the same amount of dice rolled, so it might seem an inconsiquential specific, however if for example a unit is in melee with a couple Blood Reavers a second attack sequence is far superior to +1 shot as you could loose your first volley into the melee killing the Reavers and clearing you from being engaged to free up the second volley to shoot at other targets. Likewise, I first came upon this while playing Skirmish. If I don't move with my Leader, does she shoot four shots because she attacks twice with 2 shots each time? I am really not trying to rules lawyer here, it seems to be a very specific wording on the Sisters of the Watch as every other unit I can find that gets added attacks, the rules say "+1 attack with x weapon" where the Sisters have a rule called Quick Silver Shot that specifies that "A Unit of Sisters of the Watch can attack twice in their shooting phase if they did not move in their movement phase." Unless there is an FAQ or something, it seems clear to me that this is two seperate shooting attack sequences that can potentially be split between two different targets if you so choose, and in the case of Skirmish, the Leader can shoot four times if she doesn't move, twice at two different targets. What do you guys think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 1 hour ago, Nevar said: Hey guys, just a clarification on Sisters of the Watch needed. It specifies that they can 'attack twice' if they did not move, it does not say they get +1 attack. The reason I am a bit confused, is that the leader shoots twice already. People keep suggesting the leader gets an additional shot if she doesn't move... So... do they get +1 shot from not moving, or do they get a second attack sequence from not moving. For the most part this results in nearly the same amount of dice rolled, so it might seem an inconsiquential specific, however if for example a unit is in melee with a couple Blood Reavers a second attack sequence is far superior to +1 shot as you could loose your first volley into the melee killing the Reavers and clearing you from being engaged to free up the second volley to shoot at other targets. Likewise, I first came upon this while playing Skirmish. If I don't move with my Leader, does she shoot four shots because she attacks twice with 2 shots each time? I am really not trying to rules lawyer here, it seems to be a very specific wording on the Sisters of the Watch as every other unit I can find that gets added attacks, the rules say "+1 attack with x weapon" where the Sisters have a rule called Quick Silver Shot that specifies that "A Unit of Sisters of the Watch can attack twice in their shooting phase if they did not move in their movement phase." Unless there is an FAQ or something, it seems clear to me that this is two seperate shooting attack sequences that can potentially be split between two different targets if you so choose, and in the case of Skirmish, the Leader can shoot four times if she doesn't move, twice at two different targets. What do you guys think? She should be able to shoot 4 times if she didn't move IMO 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 27 minutes ago, Popisdead said: She should be able to shoot 4 times if she didn't move IMO I would agree. The wording just says they can attack twice, rather than something along the lines of "make an additional attack" and therefore should allow the leader to get 4 shots total as they are making another full shooting sequence. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popisdead Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 4 hours ago, Gwendar said: I would agree. The wording just says they can attack twice, rather than something along the lines of "make an additional attack" and therefore should allow the leader to get 4 shots total as they are making another full shooting sequence. Yeah I get that. To me she gets an extra shooting attack for being the champion. Then you get a second round of shooting if they don't move and she has the two shots. I think Skirmish was mentioned? From what I gather Sisters of the Watch can be brutal in Skirmish, particularly a 4 shot champion (i guess 6 if she gets charged) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GM_Monkey Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 I actually had this with my game last night with SotW, I talked it out with my opponent. Basically we treated it as 2 attacks, and he removed his wounds after the first attack, which meant I couldn't shoot him again (as I had no LOS). Not sure how this should really go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gwendar Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 3 hours ago, GM_Monkey said: I actually had this with my game last night with SotW, I talked it out with my opponent. Basically we treated it as 2 attacks, and he removed his wounds after the first attack, which meant I couldn't shoot him again (as I had no LOS). Not sure how this should really go. It seems pretty cut and dry to me, but with GW's wording sometimes I can see how it could be confusing. I just look at it with rar: "A unit of sisters of the watch can attack twice in their shooting phase if they did not move in their movement phase" So, to me, this implies 2 rounds of shooting will all bonuses, including the leader ability to make "2 attacks rather than 1". This doubles a unit of 10's shooting from 11 shots with movement to 22 shots without movement, counting the leader getting one extra attack each time. Now, had the wording been something like: "A unit of sisters of the watch can make an additional attack in their shooting phase if they did not move in their movement phase" then I would see it as being 11 shots with movement, 21 without movement since it would not be an additional round of shooting and therefore the leader would only get "one additional attack" taking the leader from firing 4 shots, to 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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