Kaleun Posted April 13, 2020 Share Posted April 13, 2020 @LuminethMage oh no! those battle cow design choice... @DantePQ we are curious about the lists 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 I agree @DantePQ. I've been running daughters for over a year now and I've never not gone 4-1 at a major event, with a couple 3rd place finishes at large 2 dayers. Every list I build has morathi in it. Especially lately with the prevalence of OBR and the always dangerous fyreslayers, having a big bully roadblock is super important. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 @Kaleun I used Slaughter Troupe list Morathi-Mindrazor Slughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - Ignax Scale's, Catechism of Murder Hag Queen - Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine 30 Witch Aelves with bucklers 30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers 10 Sisters of Slaughter with knives 2x5 Heartrenders and at 84 players Team Event which my team have won in middle of January I went 5-0 with this list Morathi-Mindrazor Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - Gryph-feather Charm, Catechism of Murder Hag Queen - Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine 30 Witch Aelves with bucklers 30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers 10 Witch Aelves with knives 5 Lifetakers 10 Lifetakers Both are great lists and at team event I won vs Fyreslayers (twice), Skavens and Hallowheart Cities 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xil Posted April 14, 2020 Share Posted April 14, 2020 12 hours ago, DantePQ said: @Kaleun I used Slaughter Troupe list Morathi-Mindrazor Slughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - Ignax Scale's, Catechism of Murder Hag Queen - Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine 30 Witch Aelves with bucklers 30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers 10 Sisters of Slaughter with knives 2x5 Heartrenders and at 84 players Team Event which my team have won in middle of January I went 5-0 with this list Morathi-Mindrazor Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood - Gryph-feather Charm, Catechism of Murder Hag Queen - Iron Circlet, Blessing of Khaine 30 Witch Aelves with bucklers 30 Sisters of Slaughter with bucklers 10 Witch Aelves with knives 5 Lifetakers 10 Lifetakers Both are great lists and at team event I won vs Fyreslayers (twice), Skavens and Hallowheart Cities Could you say something about your game plan and strategy? Especially against shooting lists and Fyreslayers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted April 16, 2020 Share Posted April 16, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 8:35 PM, Xil said: Could you say something about your game plan and strategy? Especially against shooting lists and Fyreslayers? Sure, will do later on, but my battle from London GT is quite good how DoK play. In Nutshell : - castle up early on, use Morathi as big piece to control the table - open up with run&charge, take control of objectives. - hold them. - harass enemy backline with Khinerai threat. Extra adive : Keep you Cauldron safe at all cost, it's just as much key piece as Morathi. I know it can hit like a truck but do not engage with it unless it's desperation time. Here is the video : 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 (edited) Interesting. A Khainite Warcry warband which is affiliated with Morathi but looks nothing like previous DoK design. They also seem to be mostly male? "Warcry is great for letting us look at the areas of the Mortal Realms that you don’t tend to see anywhere else – and these new additions are no exception. The Khainite Shadowstalkers are the spies that Morathi uses to enforce her will across the realms. Even for a race from a land of shadow and renowned for their innate stealth, these guys are sneaky! They’re like mist in the shadows, only the mist has a poison dagger and a repeater crossbow… These dynamic models hark back to a classic Dark Elf aesthetic from the world-that-was, that of Khaine worshippers like Assassins and Shades. " The preview text makes it seem like they are going to be a stand alone thing. Edit: On second thought they look quite a bit like the misweaver saih... Edited April 18, 2020 by foxicious Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xil Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I need them as well as the other Warband they showed previously. Anyone knows of a date these become available? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Sadly no. At the moment even GW probably doesn't know when, since everything is delayed due to corona... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ggom Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 Not a fan of these shadow aelves, they don’t share the same feel as the rest of the army in my mind. There are some visual cues like the circlet on the leader and the greaves they all wear that are similar, but I’m really not feeling them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rbstr Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 I'm guessing they're more matched to the potential/future Ulgu/Malerion elves, rather than the DoK? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 3 hours ago, foxicious said: Interesting. A Khainite Warcry warband which is affiliated with Morathi but looks nothing like previous DoK design. They also seem to be mostly male? "Warcry is great for letting us look at the areas of the Mortal Realms that you don’t tend to see anywhere else – and these new additions are no exception. The Khainite Shadowstalkers are the spies that Morathi uses to enforce her will across the realms. Even for a race from a land of shadow and renowned for their innate stealth, these guys are sneaky! They’re like mist in the shadows, only the mist has a poison dagger and a repeater crossbow… These dynamic models hark back to a classic Dark Elf aesthetic from the world-that-was, that of Khaine worshippers like Assassins and Shades. " The preview text makes it seem like they are going to be a stand alone thing. Edit: On second thought they look quite a bit like the misweaver saih... They look amazing and they‘re just one part of a larger Warband 😍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 49 minutes ago, rbstr said: I'm guessing they're more matched to the potential/future Ulgu/Malerion elves, rather than the DoK? At least they look like what I would expect Malerion elves to look. I don't think they are going to alter the design of daughters as a whole that much, since the Underworlds Warband still had the old design. So this could mean a few things: They are a Warcry only thing, just like Kurnothi are for Underworlds right now. So it might be the exploration of a new design space which doesn't lead to a new army/new units for AoS. The Shadowstalkers are a new "chamber" for DoK which introduces new units in a different design to the army. They are a preview of what we can expect from Malerions shadow elves. Maybe they are Morathis contribution to his army? I really hope it is the third option. I think they look absolutely stunning, but I am with @Ggom on this one. They don't feel very fitting for the Daughters of Khaine we know (until now). 42 minutes ago, JackStreicher said: They look amazing and they‘re just one part of a larger Warband 😍 Yeah, they really do. I hope this is what Malerions elves are going to look like. Would get me really excited for that army 😍 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 They fit perfectly as Morathi hit squad of assassins and spies compared to rank and file troops of Witches. Also lorewise Morathi would never contribute anything to Malerion. Doubt Malerion army will look anything like that. I still think he will move away from standard Aelves and go for grand elven-dragon hybrids or something equally majestic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted April 18, 2020 Share Posted April 18, 2020 4 hours ago, DantePQ said: Also lorewise Morathi would never contribute anything to Malerion. What makes you so sure about that? I am not up to date with all of the lore, so maybe it is said somewhere. They don't like each other, that is true, but that hasn't stopped Morathi in the past. I feel like Morathi would work with anyone, if she is able to use that to her own advantage. That being said, shadow path daughters might very well be a possibilty. Just curious to see how they would implement it so it doesn't mess too much with Malerions design space (His elves are described as being shadowy after all, aren't they?) or the role of Khailebron as our sneaky and stabby temple. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpayload Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 hours ago, foxicious said: What makes you so sure about that? I am not up to date with all of the lore, so maybe it is said somewhere. They don't like each other, that is true, but that hasn't stopped Morathi in the past. I feel like Morathi would work with anyone, if she is able to use that to her own advantage. That being said, shadow path daughters might very well be a possibilty. Just curious to see how they would implement it so it doesn't mess too much with Malerions design space (His elves are described as being shadowy after all, aren't they?) or the role of Khailebron as our sneaky and stabby temple. morathi is incredibly jealous Malerion is a god and she isn't, she can't manipulate him and when she was at her lowest point he ridiculed her by giving her the worst part of Ulgu to rule(which she lucked out on and created Hagg Nar from), she would much rather destroy than help him and gain rule of all Ulgu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpayload Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 On 4/14/2020 at 2:49 AM, Graywater said: Neither of the links worked for me. Any chance you could put it into warscrollbuilder and copy/paste it? sorry about that, here's the list. allegiance: DOK temple: hagg nar Slaughter queen on cauldron of blood - general -CT: devoted disciples -prayer: cathcheism of murder Hag queen on cauldron of blood -artefact: iron circlet - prayer: sacrament of blood hag queen prayer: blessing of khaine morathi -mindrazor UNITS x30 sisters w/ blade bucklers x10 sisters of slaughter x30 witch aelves x5 khinerai lifetakers Since then I've played a game against tseentch with archaon, really strong army I've played once or twice before, here's a breakdown for those who are interested. Battleround 1: Morathi got one hit by a charging archaon due to me forgetting how his attack works, he also killed the x10 sisters accomplanying her and took my primary objective, while my units split off to the objectives, but only made half the distance, nothing else really happened. score of 6-0 battleround 2: all my prayers went off fine, my sisters of slaughter peeled and their cauldron peeled off from the right objective to challenge archaon, my witch aelves on the left continued and took the objective, wiping out the x10 pink horrors sitting there with ease. my cauldron and hag queen stayed half way inbetween the left objective and my primary objective, 3 sisters died to daemonfire cast by archaon, the sisters put all their attacks into him and dealt one mortal wound. on his turn he took the right objective and killed 2 more sisters with archaon, and dealt 4 wounds to my slaughter queen cauldron. score of 9-3 battleround 3: heres where I start to gain the upper hand, prayers all go off again (ty iron circlet), i wipe out another 10 horrors on the left objective, only thing standing between them and his 4 point objective is 10 more horrors and 2 sorcerer dudes, my cauldrons and the hag queen smack into archaon with the sisters, if you're trying to kill archaon, smash a cauldron into him, its the only way without mindrazor to deal with him, archaon ended the turn with 5 wounds left, i lost another 10 sisters to archaon and my hag queen went to 1 wound left in exchange. My hag queen cauldron ran to the right objective, ready to take it next turn. on his turn, he didnt do much, killed another 5 sisters and summoned 10 more horrors behind the objective so he could attempt to take it and end the game due to lack of points next turn. score 12-6. battleround 4: I opened again, I wiped out the last horrors but left the sorcerers so i could backdoor retreat into his objective to take it. My hag queen cauldron wiped out the 10 horrors holding the right objective (thank god for battle rites) and took it, my cauldron smacked archaon for another 2 wounds and my prayers went off to protect the sisters, my right cauldron failed a prayer and took a wound. On his turn archaon killed the hag queen on foot as well as all my sisters but 5, who were lucky enough to survive with the cauldron and wipe out all but 4 brimstome horrors due to battleshock. end of turn 4 score was 13-11. battleround 5: He took first turn, the sorcerers killed three of the witch aelves leaving 27 to wipe them out on my turn. Archaon killed the hag queen and all but one of my sisters, the cauldron and that sister then wiping out the brimstome horrors that were left to secure the objective. on my turn, the cauldron slayed archaon and my aelves backdoored into his primary objective, leaving me with all four objectives, for a final score of 20-13. Of note in this game, we were using Table top simulator even though we both own our armies, I completely forgot my unit of lifetakers which would have let me take his primary early and lead to a crushing victory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 7 hours ago, foxicious said: What makes you so sure about that? I am not up to date with all of the lore, so maybe it is said somewhere. They don't like each other, that is true, but that hasn't stopped Morathi in the past. I feel like Morathi would work with anyone, if she is able to use that to her own advantage. That being said, shadow path daughters might very well be a possibilty. Just curious to see how they would implement it so it doesn't mess too much with Malerions design space (His elves are described as being shadowy after all, aren't they?) or the role of Khailebron as our sneaky and stabby temple. Maybe that as strongly but there is usual love-hate dynamic between them and Malerion ownw much of Ulgu so why would she send troops to Malerion ? She was tricking rest of the Gods and taking more souls then she should - not to give them away. Also the lore is quite clear Morathi and Teclis saw danger that Slaanesh can be freed and they reacted quickly thats why we are getting Teclis part of Lumineth first and there is a lot of stuff for DoK as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foxicious Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 hours ago, justpayload said: morathi is incredibly jealous Malerion is a god and she isn't, she can't manipulate him and when she was at her lowest point he ridiculed her by giving her the worst part of Ulgu to rule(which she lucked out on and created Hagg Nar from), she would much rather destroy than help him and gain rule of all Ulgu. Yeah she is jealous, she was from the first time they saw each other. Didn't stop her from trying to work together with him. He than rejected her, which for a woman like Morathi must be one of the worst offenses. Still she worked together with him, Tyrion and Teclis later on , because she would get some sweet elf souls out of the deal. Thats what I am trying to say. She doesn't love Malerion (she probably more than hates him), but if it is to her advantage she might work together with her former son. 1 hour ago, DantePQ said: Maybe that as strongly but there is usual love-hate dynamic between them and Malerion ownw much of Ulgu so why would she send troops to Malerion ? She was tricking rest of the Gods and taking more souls then she should - not to give them away. Of course she would not give them away freely. There might be reasons for her to do so. Maybe she would need to send troops as a tribute to Malerion, who as far as I understand controls most of Ulgu. Maybe she would use these "allies" she sends him as a way to spy on Malerion to help her overtake his part of Ulgu. What I am trying to say is, if GW wants to add troops from Morathis side to Malerions army I feel like they could do so without breaking the lore. That beeing said, I pondered about the inclusion of shadow elves to the Daughters and while it is not the direction I would like the Daughters to develop, I think they still would fit. They would help tie in Doomfire Warlocks (who are also kind of shadow alligned and we then would have more than one kit with repeater crossbows), which right now feel a little bit tacked on. I also quite liked your explanation why Malerions elves could focus more on a dragon aspect than a shadow aspect over in the rumor thread. I guess my problem with the new design can be summarized in two points: If the Daughters of Khaine as an army get shadow elves and Malerion also gets shadow elves, they might become quite similar and might be combined, which I would absolutely dislike. This rumor pops up every now and then in this thread or the rumor thread and everytime I just hope it won't be true. Because while I argued for why Morathi might work together with Malerion, I actually don't think they would form an army together. Besides I don't want dark elves 2.0 😔. Of course this would not be a problem, if Malerion was more about dragons than shadow. The second point his highly speculative, because on the one hand what we have seen is just the design for Warcry and if units like that would be added to DoK there still might be changes and on the other hand we have only seen three (!) models of the whole warband so far. But judging by what we were shown so far, the inclusion of the shadow elves might also mean the inclusion of more male models to the DoK range. I always enjoyed the Daughters special role as beeing an mostly female army. Of course you could argue that the new males are also enslaved like the warlocks, but it would still water down the whole concept for me. But those are only my personal concerns regarding the new design. Either way I am still looking forward for new Daughters models wether they are shadowy or bloody 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xil Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Well, I really dig the shadow style. And I am all for it to be included via different units to the daughters. Daughters without shadows feel like generic mad elves without influence from their home realm. Pretty much every other army is heavily influenced by the realm. Especially the new Lumineth. I also can't see Morathi ignoring the powers of ulgus realm and not taking advantage of it. Anyways... Interesting times to come Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 12 hours ago, justpayload said: sorry about that, here's the list. allegiance: DOK temple: hagg nar Slaughter queen on cauldron of blood - general -CT: devoted disciples -prayer: cathcheism of murder Hag queen on cauldron of blood -artefact: iron circlet - prayer: sacrament of blood hag queen prayer: blessing of khaine morathi -mindrazor UNITS x30 sisters w/ blade bucklers x10 sisters of slaughter x30 witch aelves x5 khinerai lifetakers Since then I've played a game against tseentch with archaon, really strong army I've played once or twice before, here's a breakdown for those who are interested. Battleround 1: Morathi got one hit by a charging archaon due to me forgetting how his attack works, he also killed the x10 sisters accomplanying her and took my primary objective, while my units split off to the objectives, but only made half the distance, nothing else really happened. score of 6-0 battleround 2: all my prayers went off fine, my sisters of slaughter peeled and their cauldron peeled off from the right objective to challenge archaon, my witch aelves on the left continued and took the objective, wiping out the x10 pink horrors sitting there with ease. my cauldron and hag queen stayed half way inbetween the left objective and my primary objective, 3 sisters died to daemonfire cast by archaon, the sisters put all their attacks into him and dealt one mortal wound. on his turn he took the right objective and killed 2 more sisters with archaon, and dealt 4 wounds to my slaughter queen cauldron. score of 9-3 battleround 3: heres where I start to gain the upper hand, prayers all go off again (ty iron circlet), i wipe out another 10 horrors on the left objective, only thing standing between them and his 4 point objective is 10 more horrors and 2 sorcerer dudes, my cauldrons and the hag queen smack into archaon with the sisters, if you're trying to kill archaon, smash a cauldron into him, its the only way without mindrazor to deal with him, archaon ended the turn with 5 wounds left, i lost another 10 sisters to archaon and my hag queen went to 1 wound left in exchange. My hag queen cauldron ran to the right objective, ready to take it next turn. on his turn, he didnt do much, killed another 5 sisters and summoned 10 more horrors behind the objective so he could attempt to take it and end the game due to lack of points next turn. score 12-6. battleround 4: I opened again, I wiped out the last horrors but left the sorcerers so i could backdoor retreat into his objective to take it. My hag queen cauldron wiped out the 10 horrors holding the right objective (thank god for battle rites) and took it, my cauldron smacked archaon for another 2 wounds and my prayers went off to protect the sisters, my right cauldron failed a prayer and took a wound. On his turn archaon killed the hag queen on foot as well as all my sisters but 5, who were lucky enough to survive with the cauldron and wipe out all but 4 brimstome horrors due to battleshock. end of turn 4 score was 13-11. battleround 5: He took first turn, the sorcerers killed three of the witch aelves leaving 27 to wipe them out on my turn. Archaon killed the hag queen and all but one of my sisters, the cauldron and that sister then wiping out the brimstome horrors that were left to secure the objective. on my turn, the cauldron slayed archaon and my aelves backdoored into his primary objective, leaving me with all four objectives, for a final score of 20-13. Of note in this game, we were using Table top simulator even though we both own our armies, I completely forgot my unit of lifetakers which would have let me take his primary early and lead to a crushing victory. So what jumps out at me, and something you seem to have experienced, is you have a very noticeable lack of rend and almost 0 mortal wound output. You have the cauldrons and morathi. The cauldrons can put in work, but they're VIPs-you can't let them die. Morathi can do damage, but can also whiff horribly. Her damage is far from reliable. If you go up against anything with decent armor, you're really going to struggle. You have tons of attacks with the witches, but there are some armies that you can't weight of dice your way through, and mind razor being on a 7 again, is unreliable. You can get the boost from morathi, but that means she's staying small for the turn and is potentially vulnerable, and definitely not being a bully holding up enemy units and fighting. Some of this is just the struggle daughters have in general. It will simply take some creative play to overcome those shortcomings. What is the inspiration behind 2 cauldrons? Daughters has been around long enough/has few enough units that 1 or 2 most efficient builds have been mathed out, but its rare to see more than one cauldron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStreicher Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 29 minutes ago, Graywater said: Morathi can do damage, but can also whiff horribly. Her damage is far from reliable. Mine never did anything. I always wiffed 😭 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DantePQ Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 It's not her role, her damage possibility is only a bonus to what she brings to the army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graywater Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 hours ago, JackStreicher said: Mine never did anything. I always wiffed 😭 Correct. That's because this below is accurate. 2 hours ago, DantePQ said: It's not her role, her damage possibility is only a bonus to what she brings to the army. I was commenting less on the damage being an expectation of Morathi, and going along my train of thought that there is a lack of rend/mortals, as she is one of the three models with rend 2 in the army. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaleun Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 hours ago, DantePQ said: It's not her role, her damage possibility is only a bonus to what she brings to the army. +1, Morathi is a tarpit unit, made to soak up damage of big or important enemy units. Cant go toe to toe with Archeon though. We must bring the 10 SoS between her and Archi.@justpayload You seemed to made the best out of your early loss. Archi is quite expensive. About the Morathi and Malerion thing, I wonder if you guys keep in mind that Morathi still is Malerions mother after all? Both of them are scheming and Malekith aka. Malekith was always taking the big power from himself. His mother accepted the second place besides her son, but served their realm with her wits and her own power. There might be conflict, but I think Malerions Shadowkin will be allied with the Daughters of Khaine which also origin from Ulgu. So I do not think we will expect new models for the DoK range. I also do not think they need anything new to be powerful. The release line is also stated: There we see the timeline of aelfen release. After the Lumineth Malerions kin is to come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justpayload Posted April 20, 2020 Share Posted April 20, 2020 8 hours ago, Graywater said: So what jumps out at me, and something you seem to have experienced, is you have a very noticeable lack of rend and almost 0 mortal wound output. You have the cauldrons and morathi. The cauldrons can put in work, but they're VIPs-you can't let them die. Morathi can do damage, but can also whiff horribly. Her damage is far from reliable. If you go up against anything with decent armor, you're really going to struggle. You have tons of attacks with the witches, but there are some armies that you can't weight of dice your way through, and mind razor being on a 7 again, is unreliable. You can get the boost from morathi, but that means she's staying small for the turn and is potentially vulnerable, and definitely not being a bully holding up enemy units and fighting. Some of this is just the struggle daughters have in general. It will simply take some creative play to overcome those shortcomings. What is the inspiration behind 2 cauldrons? Daughters has been around long enough/has few enough units that 1 or 2 most efficient builds have been mathed out, but its rare to see more than one cauldron. two cauldrons enables division to support both the 30 blobs, slaughter queen cauldron enables double attacks with devoted disciples to make the sisters output as much damage as the witch aelves while also maintaining the buff, the hag queen backs up the witch aelves to give them witch brew as well as being able to take an objective held by stragglers by itself, you also answered your own question a bit, due to iron circlet the avatar is almost always active, so you can use its weapons with rend to overcome armies that have armor saves. I've tested a list with two bloodwracks and a hag queen instead and didn't like it at all, not enough wounds output. TBH I think morathi is kinda bad, she's too easy to gum up with 20 man units and can't chew through fast enough, I think two bloodwracks + another hag queen + converting the lifetakers into a heartrenders squad and adding 5 more might be better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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