AoS 2 - Kharadron Overlords Discussion

[Arzalyn]

14 hours ago, Tittliewinks22 said:

With the new changes to thunderer profiles, I'm funding it hard to justify running aether rifles ever.

Its basically what @Beliman said, you take rifles for their range, but even then running all rifles is not the best damage. Taking the cannons and mortars are better most of the time (unless you shooting at a unit with 1 model, with 2 or more mortals perform better than rifles). Here some calculations about the thunderers performance for each type of weapons.

 

[Beliman]

8 hours ago, Grungnisson said:

Situational and on a 5+... You sacrifice a lot for a high chance of it not happening the whole game.

I know, but playing with Mhornar is always a plus.

[Boar]

14 hours ago, Beliman said:

It's a bit weird, rolling 3 or 4 profiles for just one unit in the same phase is teddious and boring  for both players. 

It's not that bad:

I first roll 'to hits' for mortars and add to that pool fumigator attacks (as they auto hit) and roll 'to wound' together as they have same wound/rend/dmg

Decksweepers go with rifles

and 1-3 aethercannons takes just seconds

It is actually easier than it was in 2.0 Battletome where even decksweeper could be different than rifle depending on conditions. Essentially in 2.0 they could have 5 different profiles sometimes and at best 4, now you are more like 3 actually. And add the fact that Aethercannon damage is flat which is another bit of saved time.

[Malakithe]

20 hours ago, Beliman said:

It's a bit weird, rolling 3 or 4 profiles for just one unit in the same phase is teddious and boring  for both players. 

Thats how 40k is lol almost every unit in the game has different weapon profiles. Sometimes its a bit crazy but yeah if your not used to that it can seem strange.

Kinda funny I never realized the two systems were that different until you said that. Im looking at my Guard and Infantry Squads have 6 different weapon profiles. Most vehicles in the game have between 2-6 with some outliers here and there

[Malakithe]

double lag post

Edited March 12, 2023 by Malakithe

[Beliman]

It's not that bad if you are used to play GW games and make 3 or 4 attack rolls for the same unit. It's just that I'm not a fan to see this kind of stuff in IGYG game.

@Malakithe I know (Votann player here) but I'm not a fan of 40k gameplay so...

Btw, 3.0 started removing all this profiles and was recieved as something positive. Let wait for 10th

Edited March 13, 2023 by Beliman

[Lord Veshnakar]

Opponent feedback to the new rules? Have the cries of OP started again or generally well accepted? Im finding the lack of aethegold has me a bit hamstrung for rerolls. I think the ships and endrinriggers are great though.,

[Grungnisson]

On 3/9/2023 at 7:01 AM, Beliman said:

Completely agree. That's the best way to deal with the Tuskhelmet.

Would love to see it in FAQ, but at the moment I don't see a problem with reading it the other way. Embarked units are treated as having done the same move. The reading of 'well, it wasn't HIS move' at the moment seems to me to be a bit too vague to be intentional, more like an accident since the rules for the battletome and the GHB were written independently. So either say specifically that the effects do not stack, or - to me -  the intent in the battletome rules is that the move is treated the same for both the boat and the unit and so are the effects.

[cofaxest]

After some games it feels that our book is a direct nerf for every aspect of our gameplay other then melee. I win 3 games out of 3 but only because my opponents doesn't use optimised roster and it was theirs first game vs new KO. 

I still think that we should be able to use fly high multiple times per phase(1 time per ship) and more stable or mass rend buffs for infantry and ships.

Without PSoS it feels like we have not enought counters for save stack and without ward ignoring not much we could do vs 5+ wards and without bodyguards not much we could to save heroes from mw spam. 

The best list I come-up with for now. 1 more artefact could be arcane tome or spell in the bottle (Sun or Bridge)

- Army Faction: Kharadron Overlords
     - Subfaction: Barak-Nar
     - Grand Strategy: The Day is Ours!
     - Triumph: Inspired
     - Stick To The Code (Amendments):  Prosecute Wars With All Haste
     - Stick To The Code (Artycles):  Honour is Everything
     - Stick To The Code (Footnotes):  There’s No Reward Without Risk
LEADERS
Arkanaut Admiral (125)*
     - General
     - Command Traits: Old Skydog
Codewright (90)*
Aetheric Navigator (85)**
     - Artefacts of Power: Voidstone Orb
Aether-Khemist (80)**
Endrinmaster with Endrinharness (90)**
BATTLELINE
Arkanaut Company (100)*
     - Company Captain
     - Light Skyhook and Gun Butt
     - Skypike
     - Volley Pistol
     - Aethermatic Volley Gun and Gun Butt
Arkanaut Company (100)*
     - Company Captain
     - Light Skyhook and Gun Butt
     - Skypike
     - Volley Pistol
     - Aethermatic Volley Gun and Gun Butt
Endrinriggers (240)*
     - Mizzenmaster
Grundstok Thunderers (405)*
     - Gunnery Sergeant
     - Honour Bearer
     - 3 x Grundstok Mortar
     - 3 x Aethercannon
     - 3 x Decksweeper
     - 3 x Aetheric Fumigator
BEHEMOTH
Arkanaut Ironclad (500)*
     - Great Volley Cannon
     - Great Endrinworks:  Arkanaut Ironclad
     - The Admiral's Flagship:  Arkanaut Ironclad
OTHER
Grundstok Gunhauler (170)*
     - Sky Cannon
     - Great Endrinworks:  Grundstok Gunhauler
CORE BATTALIONS
*Battle Regiment
**Command Entourage
     - Magnificent

TOTAL POINTS: 1985/2000

[Beliman]

39 minutes ago, cofaxest said:

After some games it feels that our book is a direct nerf for every aspect of our gameplay other then melee. I win 3 games out of 3 but only because my opponents doesn't use optimised roster and it was theirs first game vs new KO. 

Really?

There is a competitive gaming group here that is mathammering and playing games like mad men (over 20 games this weekend), and the general feeling is that we are better than before. Nobody denies that we have less dmg in our shooting phase, but that doesn't mean a lot because we are better suited to play competitive: We have better tactics, strategies and mechanics to deal with objectives and battleplans, and that's basically how we win games. 

58 minutes ago, Grungnisson said:

Would love to see it in FAQ, but at the moment I don't see a problem with reading it the other way. Embarked units are treated as having done the same move. The reading of 'well, it wasn't HIS move' at the moment seems to me to be a bit too vague to be intentional, more like an accident since the rules for the battletome and the GHB were written independently. So either say specifically that the effects do not stack, or - to me -  the intent in the battletome rules is that the move is treated the same for both the boat and the unit and so are the effects.

I suppose you are right. Let's hope for a FAQ.

Edited March 13, 2023 by Beliman

[cofaxest]

1 hour ago, Beliman said:

Really?

There is a competitive gaming group here that is mathammering and playing games like mad men (over 20 games this weekend), and the general feeling is that we are better than before. Nobody denies that we have less dmg in our shooting phase, but that doesn't mean a lot because we are better suited to play competitive: We have better tactics, strategies and mechanics to deal with objectives and battleplans, and that's basically how we win games. 

For me it feels like no dmg at all. You can't shoot at 12 because you will die from the charge and at 18 we have no dmg at all. I like my mobile and fast shooting much more then this. It feels so slow and very easy to counter. Just screen and hit with mw until ship will fall and then just sit on objectives while KO army with 4"move is trying to reach you. Old book I understand much better then this for sure. 

[Grungnisson]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

For me it feels like no dmg at all. You can't shoot at 12 because you will die from the charge and at 18 we have no dmg at all. 

While it's still not fabulous, I'd say our shooting at 12"+ ranges became a bit better now. No more D6 damage from Skycannon's shell and you're no longer locked into taking all Rifles on Thunderers for range. There are also ways of making those big damage shots off the boats more reliable with an extra attack and a re-roll of 1, and adding rend. Sure, you need to build for it, but that's always been the case with KO, we are a rules-heavy army.

[Grungnisson]

All being said, man is Drillbill utter ****** now...

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, cofaxest said:

You can't shoot at 12 because you will die from the charge

Thunderers with 2W each and 3+ save will die from the charge?

Just to confess - I always found the run & shoot approach pitiful and tried (as much as possible) to play the melee game with Zon or Thryng and Endrinriggers & Endrinmaster as combat units. The new book seems to really support this style with:

- Frigates; this does not need explanation;

- stronger melee units;

- more durable objective holders (Thunderers);

- movement control (did anyone try the Navigator with Stormcaller? it looks super good on paper).

All in all I guess we should treat shooting as a major element of the army, used to: (i) remove screens and support; (ii) soften the tough targets before combat. At the same time, we're not supposed to clear the table with shooting, while avoiding combat - and that is a very healthy change.

[Grungnisson]

6 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Thunderers with 2W each and 3+ save will die from the charge?

I mean... probably, yes. Played a game only last Saturday and had Durthu charging into my full health, All-out-Defenced Nagash on 2+, and three sword attacks went through. 18 damage, game, set, match. So it's not unthinkable

[Flippy]

1 hour ago, Grungnisson said:

I mean... probably, yes. Played a game only last Saturday and had Durthu charging into my full health, All-out-Defenced Nagash on 2+, and three sword attacks went through. 18 damage, game, set, match. So it's not unthinkable

Anything can happen, sure - but with Thunderers we're talking about Stormcast-level resilience. It doesn't get much better in AoS. And they can apply -1 to hit debuff by themselves.

[Grungnisson]

22 minutes ago, Flippy said:

Anything can happen, sure - but with Thunderers we're talking about Stormcast-level resilience. It doesn't get much better in AoS. And they can apply -1 to hit debuff by themselves.

The latest Stormcast book came out before all other armies got updated and Rend stacking became a thing. Thunderers get that treatment in a time, when -2 Rend is not uncommon any more.

But I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

[Beliman]

4 hours ago, Grungnisson said:

The latest Stormcast book came out before all other armies got updated and Rend stacking became a thing. Thunderers get that treatment in a time, when -2 Rend is not uncommon any more.

But I'd be more than happy to be proven wrong.

I still think that the only thing that KOs need are some points reduction. Maybe some keyword flexibility and adjustements to some abilities (e.g: Admiral/Brokk CAs should buff people inside the skyvessels too) but that's all I need.

I think that this book is a lot better than any book that we had before, even if there are some things that I dislike, as losing our  coalition units for Thryng, all the iconic artifacts (Galeforce stave, Iron star, etc...) and lore-abilities that we lost as part of AoS 3.0.

[Grungnisson]

After reading the book through a couple of times, my wishlist is:

Riggers/Wardens 3 Wounds each, keep the points

Khemist augumenting when embarked

Ironclad down on points, counts as 10 models on objectives. 

[generalchaos34]

Questions for all you grizzled sky dogs from a newly commissioned captain, I have 9 wardens/riggers coming my way and I was wondering what would be the ideal build and loadout for them? I'm seeing people run both wardens and riggers so I am a bit confused about which one is the best choice, or how to split them in a 6/3 ratio. Additionally are special weapons worth bothering with in either configuration or should I just run them straight without upgrades? 

[Arzalyn]

37 minutes ago, generalchaos34 said:

Questions for all you grizzled sky dogs from a newly commissioned captain, I have 9 wardens/riggers coming my way and I was wondering what would be the ideal build and loadout for them? I'm seeing people run both wardens and riggers so I am a bit confused about which one is the best choice, or how to split them in a 6/3 ratio. Additionally are special weapons worth bothering with in either configuration or should I just run them straight without upgrades? 

So far riggers and wardens seen to be both pretty decent. Wardens have a better melee output in general if you can get their timed retreat, with riggers getting more similar to them vs enemies with high save. I think which one is better depend on your list and their role.

If you are in Zon or you plan on using them outside the boat, Wardens are better.

If you are in Nar using Brokk or if you want to keep them within the boat, I favor riggers due to their healing.

Personally I find myself including riggers in my list more often then wardens, as they have more utility without loosing to much melee power.

Loadout wise, the special weapon add a insignificant amount of damage (1~2 extra damage in a unit of 6 riggers) and make you loose most of your melee power. Of the special weapons, the grapnel launcher is the most useful as good teleport once per game. Due to this I would say go with their normal weapons (saw/lance+gun). If you are using a unit of 6 or 9, you can afford to give 1 of them the grapnel launcher for the extra utility without loosing too much.

[cofaxest]

21 hours ago, Beliman said:

I still think that the only thing that KOs need are some points reduction. Maybe some keyword flexibility and adjustements to some abilities (e.g: Admiral/Brokk CAs should buff people inside the skyvessels too) but that's all I need.

I agreed with you 100% on that, but I don't think that it's small amount of work. Our units cost too much for how they perform and how much support they need to actually work. 

Bombrack hiting units with fly

New hero can swap footnotes instead of replace them

Admiral should modify rend of flagship or unit within 3" from flagship once per game

The same Iron sky command ability could be used multiple times per phase(but on different ships)

2 attacks 4+/3+/-3/Dmg 3 on drill for gunhauler

All drills deal mw on 5+(d3 mw on skyriggers, 3 mw on gunhauler)

Mortars gives 1 attacks for each 2w on targeted unit 

Drillbill give UH within 9" instead of 6"

Grapnels can be used on ships

Arcs - 80/90

Riggers - 110

Wardens - 120

Thunderers - 130

Frigate - 280

Gunhauler - 160

Navigator - 90

Codeguy - 80

Admiral - 120

Endrinmaster on baloon - 160

Brokk - 200

 

Edited March 14, 2023 by cofaxest

[Grungnisson]

3 hours ago, generalchaos34 said:

Questions for all you grizzled sky dogs from a newly commissioned captain, I have 9 wardens/riggers coming my way and I was wondering what would be the ideal build and loadout for them? I'm seeing people run both wardens and riggers so I am a bit confused about which one is the best choice, or how to split them in a 6/3 ratio. Additionally are special weapons worth bothering with in either configuration or should I just run them straight without upgrades? 

Either way, they are now our hammers, so forget the specialist weapons, you want to maximise the melle damage. Maybe build one with the grapling, since that will give you the extra move for a whole unit. After that, decide what you want them to do. Protect the boats? Chew through high armour with extra rend? Double reinforce so that they can survive and jump out of combat firing up the charges? So try to ask yourself first HOWQ you want to use them and then a build will follow.

[Beliman]

How are you doing in this first days? I'm really curious about what type of lists and combos that are you using.

I've stoped building my second Ironclad and started with my 3d Frigate. I've got an army of balloon boyz that want to return to the table.

[Grungnisson]

At the moment I'm thinking how should I modify my Endrinriggers so that I can run them as either them or Skywardens. Really can't be arsed to be adding more models. At least it's a good job I never went for the specialist weapons much.