AoS 2 - Stormcast Eternals Discussion

[PJetski]

3 minutes ago, 5kaven5lave said:

Dood, this is sweet. Thanks man. So Warding Lantern on the pack of Dracs? Would it be a massive waste if I fancied some Sequitors instead of Libs and dropped a Ballista or the Arcanum on Charger down to an Incantor maybe?

Arcanum is there for Cycle of the Storm and his healing spell. Stacking Cycle of the Storm on models with a 2+ rerollable save with 5Wounds each is really good, especially when you can heal them up afterwards. I would not drop the Arcanum for an Incantor.

I don't include Sequitors as the battleline in this list because it just adds more melee damage to a list with a lot of melee damage. I think 2x Lib + Jud is better than 3x5 Sequitor, since you can use the Liberators as a dedicated screen while Judicators hold an objective and keep shooting to put pressure on the enemy.

As discussed previously in this thread, I think 5man squads of Sequitors are a bad choice. They die just as quickly as Liberators outside of melee but cost 20pt more, and after losing their 2 shields they die even quicker.  I prefer to run Sequitors in squads of 10 and this list wont have enough room for that since it's all about those Dracolines.

[5kaven5lave]

18 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Arcanum is there for Cycle of the Storm and his healing spell. Stacking Cycle of the Storm on models with a 2+ rerollable save with 5Wounds each is really good, especially when you can heal them up afterwards. I would not drop the Arcanum for an Incantor.

I don't include Sequitors as the battleline in this list because it just adds more melee damage to a list with a lot of melee damage. I think 2x Lib + Jud is better than 3x5 Sequitor, since you can use the Liberators as a dedicated screen while Judicators hold an objective and keep shooting to put pressure on the enemy.

As discussed previously in this thread, I think 5man squads of Sequitors are a bad choice. They die just as quickly as Liberators outside of melee but cost 20pt more, and after losing their 2 shields they die even quicker.  I prefer to run Sequitors in squads of 10 and this list wont have enough room for that since it's all about those Dracolines.

Ah right, makes total sense. Such a nicely balanced list man, it’s electric (no pun intended). Thanks for your responses, my hand is getting closer to the buy button by the second. 

[oscisi]

Hi guys!

I collect Stormcast Eternals but never actually played with them. I'm more of a role playing/narrative guy anyway.

I have bought a bunch of models because they are cool, without necessarily minding how good they are in matched play. Below you will see a list of what I have/intend to add. Would love some feedback/ideas on how to make the most out of my models. Competitively speaking that is. For example: the weapon options are flexible since all will be magnetized. I also have a bunch of Endless Spells painted up so including those is also an option. Not the SCE ones, though. Just from Malign Sorcery. Thanks!

Allegiance: Stormcast Eternals

LEADERS
Lord-Aquilor (200)
- General
Lord-Arcanum on Celestial Dracoline (240)
Lord-Relictor (100)
UNITS
15 x Liberators (300)
-Warblade & Shield
10 x Vanguard-Hunters (240)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
5 x Vanguard-Hunters (120)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
6 x Vanguard-Palladors (400)
-Boltstorm Pistols and Shock Handaxes
TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 0 WOUNDS: 139
LEADERS: 3/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+)

Left "on the bench": Lord-Ordinator, Steelheart's Champions, 3xProsecutors and a bunch of Gryph-Hounds.

Edited October 4, 2018 by oscisi

[Mark Williams]

8 hours ago, XReN said:

I have a hard time imagining how you can bypass a screen when facing even semi-compitent opponent with at least 30 semi-disspossable models in their army. It is basicly a 60" WALL of no-go. If I were to face a stormcast with surecharge I would do exactly that - build a stupidly cheap wall of whatever available and countercharge my opponent when he wipes it out

You’re trying to separate this out into a hypothetical closed bottle situation. A screen of 30 disposable models? With what army are you doing this with? Are you going to spend 3 turns hiding behind your screen while the sce player shoots your screen down and then charges past them anyway once they are no longer 30?

This isn’t a discussion about whether or not a strategy is invincible and whether or not it can be countered if you know it’s coming and have hours to prepare a defense with a custom tailored army.

In a random game setting,  I explained how the Gav bomb works and how it wins games. To say it’s no big deal and easily countered is disengenuois. You have to deploy your army like a complicated jigsaw puzzle to keep from getting gutted first turn, and as the game wears on and you’re trying to capture objectives and weather return fire from various other sources, something is going to open up or get exposed.

 I feel like people saying it’s no big deal maybe haven’t played against a competent opponent using it yet.

[PJetski]

Most armies have screens, and they use them regularly. 

Gavriel lists are easy to counter. I feel like people saying it's a big deal haven't played against a competent opponent that knows how to defend against it.

[ShepHammer]

3 hours ago, PJetski said:

I think 5man squads of Sequitors are a bad choice. They die just as quickly as Liberators outside of melee but cost 20pt more, and after losing their 2 shields they die even quicker.  I prefer to run Sequitors in squads of 10.

I certainly agree with this position, both from a theoretical point of view and through play experience with sequitors, but I feel that this statement begs the question regarding liberators.

Are liberators more effective at 10 models than at 5 as well? I have always run my liberators as 5-man squads, and the value they bring is limited to fulfilling a battleline requirement, with marginal extra value in being 5 models instead of one. All of us can think of at least one unit costing 100 points in our battletome that has more value.

I suppose this discussion could turn into the old "how invested should you be in your battleline?" argument, but I would love to hear some thoughts from this community about liberator value.  I noticed that when people were asked if they would take non-battleline sequitors the consensus was 'no thanks', to me this shows that an additional investment in sequitors beyond 5 has some value, even though they are a "only if battleline" option.  Should we keep paying 100 points for 10 medium-armored wounds and expect nothing else from them?  Does anyone run 10 man liberators squads?  Can you please share your experiences?

[Mark Williams]

15 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Most armies have screens, and they use them regularly. 

Gavriel lists are easy to counter. I feel like people saying it's a big deal haven't played against a competent opponent that knows how to defend against it.

I know it can be countered, but we just came out of a separate thread discussing where gav lists factored into the very high tournament performance that sce have shown lately. It’s a very strong ability, which yes can be countered easily by some armies, but others have an incredibly difficult time with. I stand by my statement that in a random game setting you’re going to face many opponents who plan on only having a minimal screen, and the gav list will move on past it and use it to leapfrog past to the unit behind.

Maybe some people think it’s easy to block, and that’s fine. I don’t know what army you use. I see it used in my local area and if it’s not properly blocked, it’s basically a turn 1 game winning strat. Yes, it can be beaten, but I wasn’t trying to say it can’t. I’m only saying it’s pretty darn strong and easy to pull off, and puts opponents on the defensive early on.

7 minutes ago, ShepHammer said:

I certainly agree with this position, both from a theoretical point of view and through play experience with sequitors, but I feel that this statement begs the question regarding liberators.

Are liberators more effective at 10 models than at 5 as well? I have always run my liberators as 5-man squads, and the value they bring is limited to fulfilling a battleline requirement, with marginal extra value in being 5 models instead of one. All of us can think of at least one unit costing 100 points in our battletome that has more value.

I suppose this discussion could turn into the old "how invested should you be in your battleline?" argument, but I would love to hear some thoughts from this community about liberator value.  I noticed that when people were asked if they would take non-battleline sequitors the consensus was 'no thanks', to me this shows that an additional investment in sequitors beyond 5 has some value, even though they are a "only if battleline" option.  Should we keep paying 100 points for 10 medium-armored wounds and expect nothing else from them?  Does anyone run 10 man liberators squads?  Can you please share your experiences?

I tried running lib heavy armies for about half a year because I had nothing else. Their main issue is lack of damage. They slow-kill everything they get into combat with, if they don’t die first. Their only purpose is to screen the good units or capture and hold objectives late game because the enemy can’t divert resources towards them. 

Edited October 4, 2018 by Mark Williams

[PJetski]

Gavriel lists are like Beastclaw Raiders... it's a strong gimmick, but once you know how to position properly to counter it then they're a non-threat. The expression "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me" is appropriate here.

I think that "It beats newbies that have never seen or heard of it before" is not a strong enough argument, because I don't think you can call it a good list if it goes all-in on a single gimmick that is both easy to predict and easy to counter with just about any army.

That said, I think that Gavriels ability is unique and really strong. Gavbombs could evolve into dropping something besides Evocators into play to better offset its horrendous weakness to screens. For example, dropping a bunch of Dracoths into play that can immediately shoot mortal wounds and then charge for the kill.

 

49 minutes ago, ShepHammer said:

I certainly agree with this position, both from a theoretical point of view and through play experience with sequitors, but I feel that this statement begs the question regarding liberators.

Are liberators more effective at 10 models than at 5 as well? I have always run my liberators as 5-man squads, and the value they bring is limited to fulfilling a battleline requirement, with marginal extra value in being 5 models instead of one. All of us can think of at least one unit costing 100 points in our battletome that has more value.

I suppose this discussion could turn into the old "how invested should you be in your battleline?" argument, but I would love to hear some thoughts from this community about liberator value.  I noticed that when people were asked if they would take non-battleline sequitors the consensus was 'no thanks', to me this shows that an additional investment in sequitors beyond 5 has some value, even though they are a "only if battleline" option.  Should we keep paying 100 points for 10 medium-armored wounds and expect nothing else from them?  Does anyone run 10 man liberators squads?  Can you please share your experiences?

I think Liberators work best in 5s, since you get the Grandhammer on the Prime. The reason I prefer 5xLiberator over 5xSequitor is that they don't have enough wounds to make their offense relevant, often dying before getting to swing once.

If you're running a squad of 10 I would consider using Sequitors instead, even at the 40pt premium. 

My reasoning is that screens tend to die to Mortal Wounds, light shooting, or the first unit that hits them in melee (that's what a screen is for) and in that situation 5 liberators are strictly better than 5 sequitors because they're 20pt cheaper. However, once you have 10 models they are likely to survive the initial mortal wounds & shooting and still take a charge. At this point they become worth buffing with a Warding Lantern. With 10 models you are also more likely to fail Battleshock tests, so the +1 Bravery on Sequitors is usually worth 2 wounds by itself.

That's all from a purely defensive perspective... when you consider their offensive capabilities then Sequitors are clearly better and definitely worth their cost. Once you reach 10 models the unit is more than just a screen, but sometimes you just want the cheapest screen and that's where Liberators shine.

[Requizen]

I don't think Gav with Evos is a one trick pony, but I think it will evolve into something else. Rather than being something you build the list around, it might be one element of it. For example:

Gavriel
Ordinator
Relictor
Vexillor

Judicators
Judicators
Liberators

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Evocators x10
Evocators x5
Skinks
Prosecutors

While not an Optimized list, definitely something I've been fiddling with. Enough drops to put Evos, Ballistas, Ordi, and Gav in the sky. You can do things like drop in shooting units first to clear the screen and create a "Drop Zone" so to speak, or you can drop the Evos first to charge in and use the shooting to clear up, or leave Ballistas on the table to threaten fast enemies/Alpha Strikes, or leave the Evos down to counter charge and drop the Ballistas to backfield snipe... less all in on getting the melee unit through on turn 1, though if you can, it's still just as strong. Could potentially drop some Evos for more bodies, but like I said, work in progress.

[PJetski]

I think I would always take an Azyros over an Ordinator. Even though the Ordinator raises their accuracy more, it restricts your positioning since the Ballista need to be near the Ordinator and with a 3" move a ballista nest is just a sitting target. It's better to spread them out. The Azyros also buffs melee attacks

Gavriel needs a list with at least 2 extra command points to guarantee the charge (and to increase the range of your charge to improve your wrapping).

If you're running a Vexillor then I think I would rather drop Gavriel and take Incantor + Cogs instead.  A 7" rerollable  charge that requires casting cogs first is not as reliable as the guaranteed charge Gavriel route, but it's a more versatile route since you can take Staunch Defender and have wizards.

I think if you run Gavriel you gotta go all-in on his mechanic because you're losing a lot by not taking Staunch Defender.

Edited October 4, 2018 by PJetski

[Mark Williams]

11 minutes ago, PJetski said:

I think I would always take an Azyros over an Ordinator. Even though the Ordinator raises their accuracy more, it restricts your positioning since the Ballista need to be near the Ordinator and with a 3" move a ballista nest is just a sitting target. It's better to spread them out. The Azyros also buffs melee attacks

Gavriel needs a list with at least 2 extra command points to guarantee the charge (and to increase the range of your charge to improve your wrapping).

If you're running a Vexillor then I think I would rather drop Gavriel and take Incantor + Cogs instead.  A 7" rerollable  charge that requires casting cogs first is not as reliable as the guaranteed charge Gavriel route, but it's a more versatile route since you can take Staunch Defender and have wizards.

I think if you run Gavriel you gotta go all-in on his mechanic because you're losing a lot by not taking Staunch Defender.

Gavriel doesn't have to be your general. I thought this was required too. You can get the best of both worlds.

[Requizen]

Disagree on number of CPs and Vexillor.

Gav with 1 extra CP is a 3" charge. Have a Vexillor there (easy to get in range with either a run or teleporting himself), and that's 3" with reroll, which is about as reliable as you can get (chance of rolling snake eyes twice in a row is pretty tiny, like .07% or something?). Even no extra CP with a reroll is a 6"rr, which is around a 92% success chance. 

Cogs + Wizard + Vex gets you Staunch and an artifact, sure, but Cogs are so hard to get off unless you're investing in other ways of getting it off, plus it buffs your opponents and stuff. I'm not really a fan by any means, though it might work for you.

[PJetski]

9 minutes ago, Mark Williams said:

Gavriel doesn't have to be your general. I thought this was required too. You can get the best of both worlds.

I never said he needed to be your general.

Gavriels command ability only works on HAMMERS OF SIGMAR units. If you want that keyword on your units you have to play HAMMERS OF SIGMAR stormhost, and then you can't take Staunch Defender because there is a mandatory Command Ability for each Stormhost.

You have to give up Staunch Defender to use Gavriel properly.

6 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Disagree on number of CPs and Vexillor.

Gav with 1 extra CP is a 3" charge. Have a Vexillor there (easy to get in range with either a run or teleporting himself), and that's 3" with reroll, which is about as reliable as you can get (chance of rolling snake eyes twice in a row is pretty tiny, like .07% or something?). Even no extra CP with a reroll is a 6"rr, which is around a 92% success chance. 

Cogs + Wizard + Vex gets you Staunch and an artifact, sure, but Cogs are so hard to get off unless you're investing in other ways of getting it off, plus it buffs your opponents and stuff. I'm not really a fan by any means, though it might work for you.

Having +9 to charge isn't just about making the 9" charge, its also about wrapping the enemy properly to tie it down and ensuring all your models are in range to attack.

Why even take the Vexillor? For 120pt you could take 2 command points to guarantee +6" to your charge, and have 20 points to spare.

Re: Cogs. If you're deep strike charging then you generally don't mind if your opponent has +2 to charge. You can always switch it next turn.

I'm going to keep experimenting with Gavriel, but I don't think 200pt (100 + 2 CP) and restricting yourself to a bad Stormhost is worth putting 15 evocators into melee range from reserve.

Edited October 4, 2018 by PJetski

[Mark Williams]

25 minutes ago, Requizen said:

I don't think Gav with Evos is a one trick pony, but I think it will evolve into something else. Rather than being something you build the list around, it might be one element of it. For example:

Gavriel
Ordinator
Relictor
Vexillor

Judicators
Judicators
Liberators

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Evocators x10
Evocators x5
Skinks
Prosecutors

While not an Optimized list, definitely something I've been fiddling with. Enough drops to put Evos, Ballistas, Ordi, and Gav in the sky. You can do things like drop in shooting units first to clear the screen and create a "Drop Zone" so to speak, or you can drop the Evos first to charge in and use the shooting to clear up, or leave Ballistas on the table to threaten fast enemies/Alpha Strikes, or leave the Evos down to counter charge and drop the Ballistas to backfield snipe... less all in on getting the melee unit through on turn 1, though if you can, it's still just as strong. Could potentially drop some Evos for more bodies, but like I said, work in progress.

I was just about to make this point, but you made it for me. I feel like people are thinking that the opponent has nothing else and it's all about countering Gav. Gav is a threat, that forces you to play a certain way. From there, you can build your army around countering what your opponent will have to do to counter you. In this way, battles become a bit more predictable and you don't have to prepare for as many different scnenarios. If your opponent messes up their deployment, you can just go for the easy kill. And if they play smart, then you can enter into a deeper game. Either way, I don't think you can assume that if you stop it with a screen, you'll easily win.

[Mark Williams]

1 minute ago, PJetski said:

I never said he needed to be your general.

Gavriels command ability only works on HAMMERS OF SIGMAR units. If you want that keyword on your units you have to play HAMMERS OF SIGMAR stormhost, and then you can't take Staunch Defender because there is a mandatory Command Ability for each Stormhost.

You have to give up Staunch Defender to use Gavriel properly.

My bad, I misunderstood what you were saying. I thought you were talking about the 6+ damage save from Hammers.

[ShepHammer]

43 minutes ago, Requizen said:

Gavriel
Ordinator
Relictor
Vexillor

Judicators
Judicators
Liberators

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Evocators x10
Evocators x5
Skinks
Prosecutors

I know that you mentioned that this was a rough draft of a list, but I was hoping to get your reasoning for a couple of the units included.

Can you talk a bit about the relictor and the prosecutors?  For the relictor, which prayer would you be taking and what would be his role in this list.  For the prosecutors, what is their primary responsibility?

[Requizen]

12 minutes ago, ShepHammer said:

I know that you mentioned that this was a rough draft of a list, but I was hoping to get your reasoning for a couple of the units included.

Can you talk a bit about the relictor and the prosecutors?  For the relictor, which prayer would you be taking and what would be his role in this list.  For the prosecutors, what is their primary responsibility?

Relictor with Translocation because it's always useful. I like his heal, especially if he can jump up to the Evocators to support them, and the -1 to hit is super useful. I think he's probably the best all-around Hero in the army, though he doesn't have a super role like some choices (Castellant with big units, Heraldor with Fulminators, etc). 

Prosecutors... honestly I just wanted another unit that shot and only had 110 points to play with. Like I said, work in progress. 

[Killamike]

This past month I've placed 1st in a 50 man event and 3rd in an 80 man event. Both with 5 major wins, I can say that in every game 3 balistas with an ordinator was hands down MVP. 

They are fantastic screens to block objectives and put out a crazy amount of shooting. The buff range is quite large and fairly easy to work with. 

Evocators hit like trucks due to the mw output. 

I will be adding in some skinks as we do need some cheap screens. 

[XReN]

12 hours ago, Mark Williams said:

You’re trying to separate this out into a hypothetical closed bottle situation. A screen of 30 disposable models? With what army are you doing this with? Are you going to spend 3 turns hiding behind your screen while the sce player shoots your screen down and then charges past them anyway once they are no longer 30?

This isn’t a discussion about whether or not a strategy is invincible and whether or not it can be countered if you know it’s coming and have hours to prepare a defense with a custom tailored army.

In a random game setting,  I explained how the Gav bomb works and how it wins games. To say it’s no big deal and easily countered is disengenuois. You have to deploy your army like a complicated jigsaw puzzle to keep from getting gutted first turn, and as the game wears on and you’re trying to capture objectives and weather return fire from various other sources, something is going to open up or get exposed.

 I feel like people saying it’s no big deal maybe haven’t played against a competent opponent using it yet.

You already separated it by implying that there will be close to no screen in your "random game setting". To answer your question about what armies can throw away 1 big unit of chaff, or multiple small units: mixed skaven, fyreslayers, death, FEC, bonesplitters, Free Guild, slaanesh, seraphon, DOK and that's only armies that will guaranteed have enough models in every list. 

It IS a big deal, BUT it IS easily countered, at least 1st turn, then, by saying that "oh, SCE will shot you whille you turtle" you are separating it even more.

Surecharge is scary as hell, but you can't say it bypasses screen like it's not there. 

[Mark Williams]

38 minutes ago, XReN said:

You already separated it by implying that there will be close to no screen in your "random game setting". To answer your question about what armies can throw away 1 big unit of chaff, or multiple small units: mixed skaven, fyreslayers, death, FEC, bonesplitters, Free Guild, slaanesh, seraphon, DOK and that's only armies that will guaranteed have enough models in every list. 

It IS a big deal, BUT it IS easily countered, at least 1st turn, then, by saying that "oh, SCE will shot you whille you turtle" you are separating it even more.

Surecharge is scary as hell, but you can't say it bypasses screen like it's not there. 

I feel like you’re putting words in my mouth and inventing an argument you disagree with so that you can project it onto me and then say how wrong I am. I’m not even sure how to respond to this because I feel like I’m being made to defend an argument that I never even feel I made in the first place.

My experience playing against Gav lists are thus...

The first time you play it, you underestimate how far back they can charge and how much reach the 3” lightning blast can have with even 1 model extended past or around the screen. You lose your countercharge unit “accidentally” and a wing of your army folds on itself. It becomes difficult to recover at this point and you often lose at this point as they’ve taken out the unit you needed to counter them that you were trying to protect.

You feel a bit like a sucker, so the next time you overcompensate by spreading your units back further. At that point you’re locked in your deployment zone and it’s difficult to move forward or out of it without exposing your units. The game then turns into attrition where your two shooting units are whittling away at each other, and they are freely moving around the board capturing objectives. The longer their unit stays in scions, the more CPs they get so if there’s even a gap in your line at some point they’ll just shoot through it with a 16-17” charge.

It’s not that it can’t be countered, it’s just that it’s more complicated than just simply countering it. There’s multiple layers of strategy wrapped up in playing with or against the list, and you can build an army around it that can deliver other threats that compliment and enhance it.

Beyond, that I don’t even know what we’re talking about anymore, or what point I’m supposed to be defending.

Edited October 5, 2018 by Mark Williams

[Bellfree]

11 hours ago, Requizen said:

I don't think Gav with Evos is a one trick pony, but I think it will evolve into something else. Rather than being something you build the list around, it might be one element of it. For example:

Gavriel
Ordinator
Relictor
Vexillor

Judicators
Judicators
Liberators

Ballista
Ballista
Ballista

Evocators x10
Evocators x5
Skinks
Prosecutors

While not an Optimized list, definitely something I've been fiddling with. Enough drops to put Evos, Ballistas, Ordi, and Gav in the sky. You can do things like drop in shooting units first to clear the screen and create a "Drop Zone" so to speak, or you can drop the Evos first to charge in and use the shooting to clear up, or leave Ballistas on the table to threaten fast enemies/Alpha Strikes, or leave the Evos down to counter charge and drop the Ballistas to backfield snipe... less all in on getting the melee unit through on turn 1, though if you can, it's still just as strong. Could potentially drop some Evos for more bodies, but like I said, work in progress.

The problem with building a list like this is the actually fairly high opportunity cost involved in bringing Gavriel at all. He's 100pts of useless once the +charge range is no longer valuable and he forces you to take hammers of sigmar as your stormhost which means he also costs you a relic(the HoS relic is so terrible it doesn't even count) and forces you to forgo a great command trait like staunch for an extremely mediocre one.

A list like the one you've built here could quite possibly be better off taking a better stormhost(or just the generic relics+CT) and taking just the reroll charges chance. Also, using the ballista to clear  would be incredibly risky because you'd  have to drop the ballista within 18 first and basically watch them die(you're not clearing anything with the 36" fire mode, even with the ordinator) and you'd be looking at the +charge range from Gav being canceled out by the distance lost by clearing their frontline.

The reason people commit to Gavriel when they take Gavriel is because of how little actual synergy he has with other strats. In this list, if you don't drop any of the ballista+evos what's left honestly isn't worth killing for your opponent so they'll just camp on objectives and force you into a bad deployment. If you drop the ballista first, you have to put yourself within striking distance to have any real chance at doing damage, which means you risk losing nearly a quarter of your list outright. If you drop the evos first they'll have to grind through any screens your opponent has and survive a counter before the supporting fire can come in to bail them out(unless you get a super lucky double turn), if you drop both the evos and the ballista at the same time, killing their chaff will just result in longer charges. If you full commit to the single turn hammer blow and drop the Ballista within 18 of their heavy hitters or buff characters and cut the head off of the hydra quickly, that could work but you're really trusting the heart of the cards there. By taking the Ballista you're essentially leaving the Evos out on an island praying that you can kill so much stuff in a single turn that your opponent doesn't notice that you have ZERO buffs for them. Even just unbinding them could see them permanently trapped against a wall of plaguebearers or skeletons if your dice are bad enough.

In a weird way, by splitting your focus you're putting EVEN MORE pressure on your Evos to do tons of damage.

[TomParry84]

Hello Everyone,

 

Want to try something a bit different, thoughts on this please:

Lord Arcanum on Gryph Charger (G): Wind Runner, Azrite Halo, Stormrage Blade 240

Castellant: 100

Heraldor: 100

Relictor: Translocation 100 

10 Sequitors: Prime with Greatmace, 4 x Greatmace, 5 x Maul and Shield  240

10 Sequitors: Prime with Greatmace, 4 x Greatmace, 5 x Maul and Shield  240

5 Sequitors: Prime, 2 x  Greatmace, 2 x Maul and Shield 120

10 Evocators, Tempest Blade and Stormstave, Celestial Blades 400

3 Palladors: Prime, Javelins and Boltstorm Pistols 200

3 Palladors: Prime, Javelins and Boltstorm Pistols 200

 

Endless Spell: Chronomantic Cogs 60

 

Wounds: 133

Extra Command Points: 0

 

Heroes: 4/6

Batteline: 3/3+

Other Units: 3

 

Total Points: 2,000/2,000

[Kubrick54]

Love the Palladors! Great way to capture objectives with your list.

[Mikeboll]

12 hours ago, Killamike said:

This past month I've placed 1st in a 50 man event and 3rd in an 80 man event. Both with 5 major wins, I can say that in every game 3 balistas with an ordinator was hands down MVP. 

They are fantastic screens to block objectives and put out a crazy amount of shooting. The buff range is quite large and fairly easy to work with. 

Evocators hit like trucks due to the mw output. 

I will be adding in some skinks as we do need some cheap screens. 

Nice to hear! What was your list? Im glad to hear you had some success with the balistas. I Think shooting still can be a thing. I have 15 juds in my current list and just love them.

[Requizen]

6 hours ago, Bellfree said:

The problem with building a list like this is the actually fairly high opportunity cost involved in bringing Gavriel at all. He's 100pts of useless once the +charge range is no longer valuable and he forces you to take hammers of sigmar as your stormhost which means he also costs you a relic(the HoS relic is so terrible it doesn't even count) and forces you to forgo a great command trait like staunch for an extremely mediocre one.

A list like the one you've built here could quite possibly be better off taking a better stormhost(or just the generic relics+CT) and taking just the reroll charges chance. Also, using the ballista to clear  would be incredibly risky because you'd  have to drop the ballista within 18 first and basically watch them die(you're not clearing anything with the 36" fire mode, even with the ordinator) and you'd be looking at the +charge range from Gav being canceled out by the distance lost by clearing their frontline.

The reason people commit to Gavriel when they take Gavriel is because of how little actual synergy he has with other strats. In this list, if you don't drop any of the ballista+evos what's left honestly isn't worth killing for your opponent so they'll just camp on objectives and force you into a bad deployment. If you drop the ballista first, you have to put yourself within striking distance to have any real chance at doing damage, which means you risk losing nearly a quarter of your list outright. If you drop the evos first they'll have to grind through any screens your opponent has and survive a counter before the supporting fire can come in to bail them out(unless you get a super lucky double turn), if you drop both the evos and the ballista at the same time, killing their chaff will just result in longer charges. If you full commit to the single turn hammer blow and drop the Ballista within 18 of their heavy hitters or buff characters and cut the head off of the hydra quickly, that could work but you're really trusting the heart of the cards there. By taking the Ballista you're essentially leaving the Evos out on an island praying that you can kill so much stuff in a single turn that your opponent doesn't notice that you have ZERO buffs for them. Even just unbinding them could see them permanently trapped against a wall of plaguebearers or skeletons if your dice are bad enough.

In a weird way, by splitting your focus you're putting EVEN MORE pressure on your Evos to do tons of damage.

I very disagree with a few points in this assessment.

1) Gav is not useless after the drop. He still can use his CA later on other units, and he's better than many 100 point Heroes we have - 3+rr1s save makes him more durable than most things, and the MW shield and a reliable D2 weapon makes him actually fairly dangerous in combat as long as you're not charging Evos/Brutes/etc. Plus, as a non-Behemoth Hero (and therefore can get LOS) with a good save, he's not shabby at Duality of Death/Three Places of Power. 

2) The assumption that Ballistas that drop in rapid fire range immediately die is, in my opinion and experience, very false. They're far more sturdy than you might realize, especially if you can drop in cover, and if you space them out, the opponent can't charge all three at the same time. Abuse spacing on models. Also, 18" means they're out of charge range of most units the next turn. You need at least a 6" move or run/charge to get into range to make the charge, and even then it's not an easy distance unless you're a fast unit like Cav. Not to mention that they should obliterate most units that they shoot at (forcing 14 Rend-2 saves is pretty hard to survive), meaning the closest units to charge them will likely be even farther away.

3) Dropping the Ballistas and Evos simultaneously could end up in a situation where you force bad positioning/a longer charge, but that's extremely situational and depends heavily on the opponent deploying in that way, in which case you can always change your game plan. 

I'm stress testing a version of it this weekend, but honestly I have much higher hopes than this thread haha.