Let's Chat Sylvaneth

[Aezeal]

31 minutes ago, Mirage8112 said:

Eh. If I have a choice between the two, I'll take the TLA first. There's always good reason to take the TLA in a balanced list because you're right, he does offer a bit more than a TL for 40 pts. 

But players are getting too hung up on the fact that he's slightly better; and it is only slightly. He can call woods to the table, but only on a  4+ which is a 50/50 shot, not to mention that the range is super restrictive. Every citadel base has to be within 15" of him and not within 3" of any other models. Truth be told, I've never had this ability make a substantial difference in game. In the first rounds its too early to tell where woods will be useful (and the TLA is rarely within 15" of a useful spot), it's too hard to place the woods in a useful way mid-game because models are usually in the way, and late game it's too late to really contribute.

Yes, the TLA is a caster and can take an item. But because he's a caster, he's probably taking caster items which means he's not likely to be in CC, because you'll want to hold him back and play a support role. Although the TLA isn't bad in CC, if your taking a TLA, he's likely your general. It's not smart to put your general on the front lines, because you're just begging for the enemy to put everything he has into removing any chance you have to use a command ability.

Plus, being a caster isn't that much of a bonus for us. All of our characters are casters; Alarielle, the wytch, wraith, TLA, and Drycha. We aren't hurting for casters hero, we're hurting for reasonably priced CC specialists. Durthu is an option, but at 400 pts the TL is far easier to fit into a list. And at 260 pts, add a 100 pt caster sporting regrowth and the regular TL becomes harder to shift than Durthu, is 40 pts cheaper and holds up better under sustained damage. 

The fact that he isn't a hero isn't a loss either, because in the standard meta-battalion your likely already taking 3 hero's anyway and the 100 pt hero benefit from items more than a TL would. 

The reason players don't use the regular TL is they don't understand how to maximize the tradeoffs. List building is all about using different unit rolls/abilities to create openings for hammer units to cause damage. Just because 1 thing is good in a list doesn't mean 4 of the same thing is better. sometimes more is just more. 

I always go gnarled warrior in oaken armor on my TLA (but I run gnarlroot with Drycha and 2 wyches so I have enough casters anyway). As long as the enemy doesn't have rend 2 he's just going in there and tie something up while casting and shooting.

For melee power going hunters gives more damage output and more wounds and only a slightly worse save.

Anyway while you have a lot of arguments which SEEM valid I must say I just disagree with most of them.

[Mirage8112]

2 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Anyway while you have a lot of arguments which SEEM valid I must say I just disagree with most of them.

lol. Can't argue with that I guess. 

[Aezeal]

8 hours ago, Mirage8112 said:

lol. Can't argue with that I guess. 

I can go into detail

Calling woods is great if you don't have much casters since it means not needing the spell on that or the acorn. 

Casting is 1-2 mw on characters which is important I think.

Being a tough hero in 3 places of power is also major (last game my goblin opponent had 2 x 4 wound shaman an 1 x 5 wound general... all his giants and mangles squigs couldn't have made him win that.) Even if you have 2 or 3  wyches the tla is a great addition because wyches in the middle of the table die quick if targeted. 

With a Wych backing him up he might be good.. but Durthu can get healed too and wyches can die. Durthu likely has either briarsheat  or oaken armor which even without a healer makes him much tougher except against mw.

And as I said... why compare to Durthu and not against 4.5 scythe hunters anyway. A bit more models for some scenarios, much more wounds, can be healed to a lesser degree. If not done damage output math but I think hunters wouldn't be worse (guessing,  correct if wrong). 

 

[DantePQ]

Mirage8112 you're right, but still it doesn't explain why nobody uses Treelord, like nobody. I've seen many tournament lists and never seen TL. 

You got to take Treelord and Wych that's 360, for that amount of points you got TLA who is slightly worse in combat, but can take more damage(gnarled warrior, oaken armour), has nice spell, great command ability and thanks to his great defense can't be taken out easily (unlike Branchwych). 

As a CC unit he isn't great as you can take Hunters (and he isn't better then 3 Scythes Hunters and 5 tree-revs). 

I still think that his main problem is his cost at 220-225 he would be a great option and interesting alternative to hunters. I guess Durthu is his too expensive as well as he is slow, CC-only, very expensive model, I stopped using him in favor of more Scythes (as they could be backed up with command ability, mistic shield, regrowth and gnarlroot spell)

On the other hand, TL isn't that bad so maybe the possibility to include new shiny Duardin units is worth taking him (as Battalion abilities are great for Sylvaneth army)

[Aezeal]

2 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Mirage8112 you're right, but still it doesn't explain why nobody uses Treelord, like nobody. I've seen many tournament lists and never seen TL. 

You got to take Treelord and Wych that's 360, for that amount of points you got TLA who is slightly worse in combat, but can take more damage(gnarled warrior, oaken armour), has nice spell, great command ability and thanks to his great defense can't be taken out easily (unlike Branchwych). 

As a CC unit he isn't great as you can take Hunters (and he isn't better then 3 Scythes Hunters and 5 tree-revs). 

I still think that his main problem is his cost at 220-225 he would be a great option and interesting alternative to hunters. I guess Durthu is his too expensive as well as he is slow, CC-only, very expensive model, I stopped using him in favor of more Scythes (as they could be backed up with command ability, mistic shield, regrowth and gnarlroot spell)

On the other hand, TL isn't that bad so maybe the possibility to include new shiny Duardin units is worth taking him (as Battalion abilities are great for Sylvaneth army)

You are just saying why he isn't right and why I am right unless I read your whole post incorrectly.

Anyway. Thing is.. you'll still need a general in Ironbark. I'd still consider the TL a tax and he's hard to fit in 1500 point games especially that way.

Durthu isn't that slow if you put a forest in the middle and use an acorn inyour own deployment zone (place it 2"from him so it's allowed there and then teleport for being within 3"). Anyway I don't use Durthu either since I play 1500 mainly and I WANT a TLA and I think drycha is better value for points than Durthu. 

[The World Tree]

 

Hey all,

quick Alarielle question. Does her Soul Amphorae ability heal wounds back to a unit? EG. would a Dryad unit that has suffered 5 casualties bring back D3? Or does it only work on models that have taken wounds but yet to be removed as casualties (Kurnoths, for example)? The wording says models, so I'd assume the latter...

[DantePQ]

It does not bring back units, it only heals wound. But Gnarlroot spell works that - you can bring back models. 

[Mirage8112]

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Mirage8112 you're right, but still it doesn't explain why nobody uses Treelord, like nobody. I've seen many tournament lists and never seen TL. 

The fact something isn't widely used has nothing to do with anything. I've used a TL in my Gnarlroot tournament list and he worked just fine. The thing about Tournament lists is often you won't see any of a particular unit until somebody finds a build for it. Then it starts popping up everywhere. I might point out you don't see the Dreadwood alpha strike list on the table very much; but it doesn't mean it's not competitive or tournament viable. 

 

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

You got to take Treelord and Wych that's 360, for that amount of points you got TLA who is slightly worse in combat, but can take more damage(gnarled warrior, oaken armour), has nice spell, great command ability and thanks to his great defense can't be taken out easily (unlike Branchwych). 

What you (and everybody else) seem to be missing is I never said you should take a TL over a TLA. I also never said the TL was better than the ancient. What I said was, if I have a choice, I take the ancient first. Then if i need a medium-level support monster the TL is a good choice for what he does. He has  a place in balanced list.

I'd argue that a TL, a witch with an acorn and ranuu's lamentiri and regrowth for a spell ca basically do everything the TLA can do, is more tanky, more resilient and better in CC. It's also more flexible. With the TL standing 18" in front of the Wytch, nothing is capable of getting to her without first going through him. she can support him until he can handle the fight himself and she can teleport across the board and support something else. 
 

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

As a CC unit he isn't great as you can take Hunters (and he isn't better then 3 Scythes Hunters and 5 tree-revs). 

Depends. I can think of a number of situations where I'd rather have the Treelord. 
 

5 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I still think that his main problem is his cost at 220-225 he would be a great option and interesting alternative to hunters. I guess Durthu is his too expensive as well as he is slow, CC-only, very expensive model, I stopped using him in favor of more Scythes (as they could be backed up with command ability, mistic shield, regrowth and gnarlroot spell)

I wouldn't argue against a points reduction if GW wanted to give it to us. But as he right now, the TL finds a place in my competitive Sylvaneth lists just fine. @scrubyandwells and I have had some conversations about the thoughts behind the pointing of models in the sylvaneth battletome, specifically in regard to hunters, the TLA and Tree-Revenants. And I think a points reduction in regard to the TL would be too much of a buff for us. Right now you have t build a list around him rather than just throwing him in because he's cheap.

The mentality of, "1 unit of hunters is good, so 4 must be even better, right?" is lazy list building. I (personally) feel a lot of players get trapped by that approach and it leads to one dimensional armies. And one dimensional armies often end up in "rock scissors paper" match ups. Scissors are awesome,until you run into a bunch of rocks....

 

8 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Calling woods is great if you don't have much casters since it means not needing the spell on that or the acorn.

The problem is that a lot of time, getting the woods on the table is crucial to surviving a charge or holding an objective. I don't like having crucial rolls depending on a 50/50 shot. That's how you lose games.  

 

8 hours ago, Aezeal said:

Being a tough hero in 3 places of power is also major (last game my goblin opponent had 2 x 4 wound shaman an 1 x 5 wound general... all his giants and mangles squigs couldn't have made him win that.) Even if you have 2 or 3  wyches the tla is a great addition because wyches in the middle of the table die quick if targeted. 

Not sure what your point is here. As I said above the TLA usually finds a spot in my list first. He's not auto-include for me, but he's potato exclude either. Would adding the HERO keyword make him little better? Sure, being able to take artifacts is always nice. Does he really need that keyword to be playable in a competitive list? No.

 

9 hours ago, Aezeal said:

And as I said... why compare to Durthu and not against 4.5 scythe hunters anyway. A bit more models for some scenarios, much more wounds, can be healed to a lesser degree. If not done damage output math but I think hunters wouldn't be worse (guessing,  correct if wrong). 

Because you can't buy 4.5 scythe hunters. You buy 3 or 6. Theorycrafting odd unit sizes, is nice, but it's not helpful considering the way we incorporate models into a list. A regular TL is usually gets the last 300 pts in my lists. At that point I usually have a bunch of hunters so I could either add more hunters or a TL. I find the TL handles those combat situations that Hunters aren't quite right for. 

Also "damage output", isn't always the best way to judge a model's usefulness. As I've said before, sometimes a model's usefulness is about creating opportunities for maximize damage. That's called synergy. Sometimes the MVP's of my games don't remove a single model. 

 

6 hours ago, DantePQ said:

On the other hand, TL isn't that bad so maybe the possibility to include new shiny Duardin units is worth taking him (as Battalion abilities are great for Sylvaneth army)

Agreed. Depending on what the duardin units bring to the table, Ironbark might be a tough nut crack.

 

[DantePQ]

That's why agree In part agree with you, I know it's a lot of theory but there are rumors that it's almost certain that Hunters will go up in price (and that would make your Dreadwood list unplayable wich is a shame as I when I played with it I loved it) and I doubt we will gety any points reductions (but it's my gut feeling)

Question is whether would you take TLA or TL (for example having 300 spare). It's my opinion but Sylvaneth is very Battalion-centric army so in majority of cases (unless you're playing battalion free - I've seen it with spam of Hunters) Battalion will determine your playstyle :

- In Gnarlroot you have great tools to play defense and Bow Hunters seem to do great, Dreadwood is whole different story, as well as Winterleaf. And those 3 are mostly played, it's just hard to fit TL into them. For 280 you can have Drycha and she's nice tactical tool doing things that no other Sylvaneth units can do. 

And I know that TL is nice unit and in right hands can be awesome in same cases I'd prefer him to Durthu because he is much cheaper and I'm quite excited as I love new Dwarfs models (but I don't want to start new Army - I have money and place saved for Aelves) so I'd love to use some of them. And as I said Ironbark bonuses are great for Sylvaneth (bravery boost and re-rolls for Tree-Revs making easier for them to take out some strategic warchmine or leader)

[Nico]

The Ironbark buff is weak for Revenants as you can get reroll wounds simply by chilling on Mystical terrain and using the once per phase reroll to reroll the inevitable 1. Then you're off to smash something in the movement phase.

[Nico]

The thing that the Treelord adds is the stomp (cheaply) which can help protect Dryads or Kurnoths that are chilling near him.

[DantePQ]

3 minutes ago, Nico said:

The Ironbark buff is weak for Revenants as you can get reroll wounds simply by chilling on Mystical terrain and using the once per phase reroll to reroll the inevitable 1. Then you're off to smash something in the movement phase.

It's not that bad as you don't have Mystical Terrain close very often and when going after crucial leaders or warmachines somethimes re-roll is already used for charge distance. It isn't great buff but can be useful. 

Stomp is indeed very nice but the question is for 260 what would you take Drycha or TL ? I think it's easy choice. But of course TL is also quite good but right now I think there are better alternatives to use for 260. 

[Mirage8112]

4 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I know it's a lot of theory but there are rumors that it's almost certain that Hunters will go up in price (and that would make your Dreadwood list unplayable wich is a shame as I when I played with it I loved it) and I doubt we will gety any points reductions (but it's my gut feeling)

Goodness. People are so dramatic.

Firstly, I haven't seen any official indication that GW is changing the point cost of hunters (have I missed something?). I know some people have strong opinions that hunters are undercosted (with various justifications), but I find a lot of fault with their logic. On top of that, none of the points values in the new Stormcast Battletome have changed (if they were making a overhaul of points overhaul game-wide, wouldn't you expect a alteration or two to the Stormcast?).

Secondly, the longer the game is in play, the more I'm convinced hunters are pointed accurately. They are extremely powerful against the old armies but well in line with all the new releases. The slight points alteration was mostly for compendium armies or legacy units. Hell, it was one of the new AoS armies (fyreslayers) that got a points decrease.  

Thirdly, if the hunters were to go up in cost slightly, Dreadwood would still be perfectly playable. You'd have to cut 3 hunters to make the points fit, but only at a loss of 10 wounds in the first alpha strike. That means you'd be dropping 45-50 wounds instead of 55-60; still more than enough to wipe out whatever you wanted to wipe out, and you'd (likely) be able fit a 100 pt hero in which would actually balance the list slightly. (the main reason it doesn't have another hero now is because the points cost is uneven; 60pts left over. ) 

And lastly, if the hunters did go up in price, it's likely T-rev would go down slightly and possibly spites as well. Resulting in (mostly) a wash for us Sylvaneth players. 

As @Nico pointed out, the reason hunters are so hated is because of Hunters + Hurricanium combo dominating in a mixed order list. If that's really what's driving all this, the problem could easily be fixed with a slight increase to the Huricanium. If its not too substantial (between 20-60pts) it would make mixed order hunter shooting harder to spam, and it's effect on a gnarlroot list fairly easy to adjust to. 

But again, we'll just have to wait and see. As I said, I don't find the arguments for a point increase convincing. 

[Aezeal]

Personally my single unit of 3 bow hunters usually seems to underperform.

The hurricanum deserves a price increase for sure.

[Shorewood]

On 3/18/2017 at 7:55 PM, Aezeal said:

Personally my single unit of 3 bow hunters usually seems to underperform.

The hurricanum deserves a price increase for sure.

This is exactly what i've experienced.  I would be rather ticked off if they hamstring us sylvaneth players at the alter because a no longer supported unit in a mixed order army makes them a little too strong.  

[DantePQ]

Myabe that's why even if they go up in price Sylvaneth will get decrease on some units (Spite and Tree-Revs, TL, branchwraith, maybe Alarielle or on some Battalions) that would make sens. Otherwise that would be huge nerf to Sylvaneth 

[Mirage8112]

4 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Myabe that's why even if they go up in price Sylvaneth will get decrease on some units (Spite and Tree-Revs, TL, branchwraith, maybe Alarielle or on some Battalions) that would make sens. Otherwise that would be huge nerf to Sylvaneth 

Any price decrease in T-rev's or spites is basically a wash for the dreadwood list. Dropping 20 pts on revs and spites (so 80 pts a piece) gives the list 120 pts to spare. More than enough to accommodate a whopping 40 pt increase per unit in the hunters. So the list would remain unchanged. 

[DantePQ]

Yeah I know, it's just theory right now but I think it's possible that Hunters will go up in price but I guess. I just think that both Tree Revs and Spite-Revs should go down in price just because Sylvaneth doesn't have much flexibility optionwise. I just hope gyus at GW see it.

BTW Mirage what do you think about changing Alarielle for TLA with Moonstone of Hidden Ways and Lord of Spites/Gnarled Warrior and Drycha in Dreadwood list that would enable to charge even with 3 units in turn 1, also enables to cast more spells and take better advantage of Drycha-Spites synergy. Also makes it easier to win "Three Places of Power" and losing one of those leaders deosn't hurt that much

[Shorewood]

what more concerns me as someone who enjoys more casual games and doesn't bring "the meta list" is that the increase in the Hunter's cost will make making a list even more challenging than it already is.  

[Chris Tomlin]

Morning boys and girls,

For anyone who may be interested, I played my first 3 games with Sylvaneth this past Saturday at Warchiefs Warpath II, a SCGT warm up event. I discussed my games and thoughts on this weeks episode of The Black Sun Weekly.

Whilst the games perhaps didn't quite pan out as I may have hoped, it was great to get the army on the table. I think they will be very rewarding to play once I've had a few more games. Throwing the SCGT battleplans into the mix certainly didn't make things any easier on me!

It is still currently my intention to take these to the SCGT, though I will have to work on my build (Currently using the standard Chris Tomlin™ build, made popular by @Lez and @Dan Heelan!)

The episode is clean/family friendly.

Hope you enjoy if you check it out!
Cheers,
Chris

[Zhorphorus]

@Chris Tomlin please can you share your list with the few of us at work!

[Chris Tomlin]

@Zhorphorus - This is truly innovative, so get ready to have your mind blown brother! I don't have the time to wade through 61 pages, however I'm entirely confident you won't have seen the likes of this before  ...

Leaders
Treelord Ancient (300)
- General
- Trait: Gnarled Warrior - Sylvaneth
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour
- Deepwood Spell: Regrowth
Spirit of Durthu (400)
- Artefact: The Oaken Armour
Branchwych (100)
- Artefact: Acorn of the Ages
- Deepwood Spell: Verdant Blessing

Battleline
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
5 x Tree-Revenants (100)
10 x Dryads (120)

Units
6 x Kurnoth Hunters (360)
- Scythes
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows
3 x Kurnoth Hunters (180)
- Greatbows

Battalions
Gnarlroot Wargrove (80)
Household (20)
Free Spirits (40)

Total: 1980/2000

Going forward, I am interested to drop Durthu and Free Spirits (although I found that move useful tbh) for Drycha and 3 more bow armed Kurnoth Hunters. This is the new build I'm working on. @Lez trialled it for me on Saturday!  

[Paul G]

Cool episode @Chris Tomlin, would be cool to hear your thoughts once you've used Drycha a little!

Has anyone used a list with TLA, Durthu and Drycha in?

[Chris Tomlin]

19 minutes ago, Paul G said:

Cool episode @Chris Tomlin, would be cool to hear your thoughts once you've used Drycha a little!

Has anyone used a list with TLA, Durthu and Drycha in?

Thanks @Paul G 

I'm pretty sure @Forestreveries has used those 3 in a list before.

[Ratatatata]

26 minutes ago, Chris Tomlin said:

Thanks @Paul G 

I'm pretty sure @Forestreveries has used those 3 in a list before.

I´ve tried it - it was a bit hit and miss. There´s loads of points in those three characters and the army struggles a bit with bodycount. But Drycha and Durthu sure can cause mayhem together.