AoS 2 - Beasts of Chaos Discussion

[decker_cky]

I think you're right re phantasmagoria allowing a two drop army.  Issue with phantasmagoria is that it always feels like you're spending 200 pts to reduce drops, add a magic item and add a command point. Since I tend to already have 3-4 wizards, and often have a bonus dispel from gave spawn command ability, the dispel only comes up once or twice per game (and since most dispel attempts fail, it often does nothing).

Edit: how would the character / unit work in terms of ally points when taking a them in a tzeentch army? Probably needs an faq.

Edited September 21, 2019 by decker_cky

[Myrdin]

Nice to see we finally get our first named character, thats actually somewhat useful !

Still a long way to go but its more than we had before his release. 7+ cast is...slightly more difficult than I`d like, but that +1 to Hit effects does wonders for our army that has no real other internal combat buffs to speak off. 

Now it depends how it all shakes down... can yo take him instead of a Bray Shaman, and still fill the Battalion requirements, or cant you ?

Does the Allherd impede you from using him in non Allherd army ? Personally I dont think so, I believe if you take him in the other 2 greatfrays, he gets their respective keyword and but has his Allherd one as an extra (even if it should do nothing), rather then him being Allherd exclusive. A quick GW FAQ addressing this would be nice though.

Would be great to see more "expansions" for our army in this way, from other specialists games. For example a Warcry BoC Warband added, that also has a good solid Warscroll for us to make use of. Would love to see Wargor standard Bearers make a glorious return together with their even more glorious +1 To Hit for all friendly BoC units within X. 

[SwampHeart]

4 hours ago, Myrdin said:

can yo take him instead of a Bray Shaman, and still fill the Battalion requirements, or cant you ?

You cannot. He does have the Great Bray Shaman keyword but the battalions don't look for Keywords they look for units. The only exception to this is Phantasmagoria which just looks for Heroes. 

[Maddpainting]

So... after playing insane about of games, at local levels, and even some at GT events, i want to get your input on this.

First a disclaimer b.c others dont understand unless i put this first: I am not talking about if our summoning is bad or good, i am not comparing our summoning to others, this has nothing to do with if it is good or not, but only if using the Herdstone to gain more PC points is valued correctly.

I'm also assuming that each player skill is at least a high mid table (top 25%) given there can still be a mistake or two, but each player understand each others armies.

When summoning we get 1 PC + D3 for each sacrifice, but in order to sacrifice we need 1 or 2 things, 1 Hero and maybe 1 unit, 1 hero able to sacrifice will only get 5 no matter what for 90-100pts. Optionally you can have 2 units or a larger hero with more wounds, either way its about 160pts to be able to get all 5 rounds to sacrifice. B.c we are assuming each player knows each army well summoning turn 5 is almost pointless unless its a Chimera or you have Cogs, for right now lets assuming you are trying to get objectives and max turn summoning is turn 4. 

Here is what i have a problem with, and where i feel our internal balance to sacrifice isnt ... well balanced.  When you have units sitting back, depending on the mission this can be fine to not fine, so it is full missions based, RNG, which also lends me to not like our balance even moreso.

Here is how i am looking at it now. 

1 Shaman, 1 unit of Ungors, this is 160pts, over the course of 4 turns i will sacrifice 4 times, on average that is 8, i just spend 4 turns killing off a unit and leaving another unit back, those units are equal to the point values that i could summon, (8 points is 160pts of summoning). But b.c i didnt do anything with 2 units (or very little) i basically gave myself a time gate to use those points. 

Instead i could just use those points into something else, example, 1 unit of EToD, now i have a strong unit on the table and i am able to use them turn 1. I can still use another basic shaman i take anyways to hit first D3, then run him up the table, now i'm D3+1 turn 1 and i have a unit already on the table doing something else.

B.c we are assuming the other player is somewhat skilled, summoning for us isnt as strong as having units start on the table, their is the Chimera tho that has a slightly better chance to do something, or centigors to move next turn really far, but thats part of the problem, you most likely will have to sit an extra turn, if you summon a Chimera turn 3 (need 7 on 2D3, which is above average) it still might not do anything for 1 turn, a good player will just screen out the best summoning spots and if you dont shoot and charge, all you did was kill a throw away unit.

So my point is, you are not gaining enough of an advantage to warrant using the herdstone sacrifice after turn 1.

Also non Allherd, we can only summon an average of 15 points of 5 turns, thats 340pts at best if you summon 1 Chimera, if you dont then 300pts is what you get, and that is if you sacrifice 2 units. But thats if you summon turn 5, turn 4 is 12 points which is 240-260pts. You are throwing away and doing nothing with 2 units to summon an extra 80-100pts. Is doing all the work worth 80-100pts?
Or is it better to forgo that idea and just having 1 better unit to start with?

Edited September 24, 2019 by Maddpainting

[FunkyPunk]

2 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

So... after playing insane about of games, at local levels, and even some at GT events, i want to get your input on this.

...

In my opinion you’re 100% right. From my 6or so games with the army, I’ve never really felt like there was an advantage to holding my GBS+ungors at the herdstone past turn 1. I’d use it as a good way to get a gavespawn spawn in the right place, or a unit of ungors on an objective late game.  The original unit is often off doing things like blocking movement or grabbing objectives,  while the GBS needs to hoof it to buff key combat units.

Edited September 24, 2019 by FunkyPunk

[SwampHeart]

2 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

So... after playing insane about of games, at local levels, and even some at GT events, i want to get your input on this.

Feel the same way about here as everyone on FB does. You don't understand how to use BoC summoning so it seems really bad to you because you're evaluating a point for point summoning and not understanding the tactical value of adding units in as needed in specific spots. 

[Maddpainting]

27 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

Feel the same way about here as everyone on FB does. You don't understand how to use BoC summoning so it seems really bad to you because you're evaluating a point for point summoning and not understanding the tactical value of adding units in as needed in specific spots. 

There is 2 things here.

1) Points
2) purpose

1) You have to put value on everything, each ability, each unit, everything. Without value you can not balance it. Just like 1 CP is valued at 50pts, just like battalions are valued based on what they give. Ignore the value of an  ability is a terrible way to try to balance or look at the balance of something.

2) How do i not understand how Summoning works? You get points, you summon, you pick X unit(s) to place on a board edge. You pick the units and when to summon based off how the game is going, where the objectives are, where the enemy is.  Also the D3 roll is random, so you cant reliably count on it. You dont count of Summoning to win you the game like other armies (HoS, FeC, Seraphon, Sylvenath, Resumoning units like DoT, Death, etc..), its suppose to be a sideboard of tools for us.

So instead of saying "you dont understand" please explain why, why do you think i have it wrong, why do you think you cant put value on it?

I am 100% fine if you think i am wrong, but only if you talk to me about why. 
 

[SwampHeart]

1 minute ago, Maddpainting said:

1) You have to put value on everything, each ability, each unit, everything. Without value you can not balance it. Just like 1 CP is valued at 50pts, just like battalions are valued based on what they give. Ignore the value of an  ability is a terrible way to try to balance or look at the balance of something.

You absolutely don't. Summoning is a situational ability and to try an evaluate it on a point for point basis is an abject failure. If you spend 150 points to summon a 60 point Ungor unit that takes an objective in Better Part of Valor and burns that objective for the win it doesn't matter how many points it cost to buy. 
 

2 minutes ago, Maddpainting said:

2) How do i not understand how Summoning works?

Because, as above, you're attempting to assign a points value to a situational use ability. Some games summoning is a clutch ability that can win the board position and in some games it does very little. The idea that you think you should always be getting X points for Y investment is flawed thinking - you absolutely cannot properly value the game output of BoC summoning because it is flexible and changes from game to game. 

[Maddpainting]

25 minutes ago, SwampHeart said:

You absolutely don't. Summoning is a situational ability and to try an evaluate it on a point for point basis is an abject failure. If you spend 150 points to summon a 60 point Ungor unit that takes an objective in Better Part of Valor and burns that objective for the win it doesn't matter how many points it cost to buy. 

You are giving an example of 1 mission out of many, and i can still do that without needing to use more time on the herdstone, turn 1 will get at minimal 2PC, more likely 3, then i go away from the herdstone and never look at, it does the same thing you are saying.

And you still didnt explain how i dont understand it, i gave my input on what summoning is for us, and you basically said the same thing that i said, but you added "cant put point value to it" If we understand the mechanic, can compare that mechanic to other uses, we can now estimate the value of that mechanic. If you feel you personalty can not put a value on it for XYZ reason that is fine but that doesnt mean i "dont understand how summoning works" 
 

Edited September 24, 2019 by Maddpainting

[decker_cky]

I think, generally, at least 2 turns of sacrifice will be worth it. In some match-ups or scenarios, sacrificing all game can be worth it. 

 

[Kazimer]

I think summoning can be given a point value, and the choices in thr summoning chart have an obvious curve to them. Mind you, some things in the same slots are cheaper than others but that certainly doesnt make them the better choice.

AoS is different from 40k where points are a lot less fine and finnicky and the placement of models and general tactics of the movement phase are far more important compared to the importance of list building and the shooting phase of 40k. Im not saying youre comparing the 2, but people who try to pin down things like this usually are.

[Maknakt]

Hey,

 

im struggling with the brass despoilers rules, wether i can use a bloodsecrator or not and with which alliengence, artefcats and traits...

Thanks a lot.

 

[SwampHeart]

24 minutes ago, Maknakt said:

im struggling with the brass despoilers rules, wether i can use a bloodsecrator or not and with which alliengence, artefcats and traits...

You have 2 choices when using Brass Despoilers. You can either play the army as Beasts of Chaos with Beasts of Chaos allegiance abilities (Herdstone, Frays, spells, etc.) or you can play the army as Blades of Khorne using Blades of Khorne allegiance abilities (Judgements, Bloodtithe, artifacts, etc.). If you choose to play the army as Beasts of Chaos you may not take a Bloodsecrator as he is not a legal ally for BoC. If you choose to play the army as BoK you may since he is a legal unit selection in a Blades of Khorne army. 

[SwampHeart]

15 hours ago, Maddpainting said:

And you still didnt explain how i dont understand it, i gave my input on what summoning is for us, and you basically said the same thing that i said, but you added "cant put point value to it" If we understand the mechanic, can compare that mechanic to other uses, we can now estimate the value of that mechanic. If you feel you personalty can not put a value on it for XYZ reason that is fine but that doesnt mean i "dont understand how summoning works" 

You understand mechanically how summoning works but its very clear you don't understand how it works tactically. I understand this is a language barrier concern but I mean to say you are using summoning poorly - not that you don't know the rules for it. That said this isn't an argument worth continuing as you have a position that you don't wish to change and I'm not going to rehash the same argument you've had with actual tournament winning BoC players from FB. Think what you like about our summoning - I'm not going to try and change your mind anymore. 

[Maddpainting]

4 hours ago, SwampHeart said:

You understand mechanically how summoning works but its very clear you don't understand how it works tactically. I understand this is a language barrier concern but I mean to say you are using summoning poorly - not that you don't know the rules for it. That said this isn't an argument worth continuing as you have a position that you don't wish to change and I'm not going to rehash the same argument you've had with actual tournament winning BoC players from FB. Think what you like about our summoning - I'm not going to try and change your mind anymore. 

Its not about whinning or changing minds, but understanding each other, i dont understand you place and you dont understand mine. 
No one said anything but "you are wrong b.c you think in numbers" you cant talk to people like that b.c then i can just say "well Gors are better than ungors b.c you think in numbers' but then they talk about the numbers. I will for sure change if someone talks about it, as in WHY they think that way, everyone just say "you get 400 summon points, i think we are better summon than others" and not the method of how those points are used, and you dont get 400pts that would be 7-8 turns of game rolling average D3's.

If you would just talk, tell me counter points i would listen, hard to listen when we are talking about 2 different things, so again in very black and white, simple to read

Why do you think you get more value out of using the herdstone sacrifice everyturn and why do you think doing so to summon in 1 more unit or 1 slightly better is worth it over ignoring that mechanic of the game after turn 1? And if you think it is worth ignoring time to time, do you think it should be looked at b.c it is being ignored?

PS i also am doing well at tournament, only 2 GT tho (going to more this next year, i couldnt do the last 2 b.c my car broke down) and went 3-2 and 3-1, both during the height of FeC/DoK meta, i think that is pretty good for a BoC player at that time without a "meta list" (I dont like EToD so i only played with 6 of them).
 

[Kazimer]

Firm debates aside, are Chimeras good? They seem like a gigantic glass cannon. Are they better off being summoned around turn 2-3 with Allherd since their +2 charge effectively makes it 50/50? Or should I utilize their 12" fly to get into combat  on turn 2 (turn 1 if I go second and my opponent moves up the board) at the risk of ranged and magic blowing it away?

[decker_cky]

7+ to charge is a 60/40 proposition (58.33%, to be precise). With a reroll, there's an 82.6% chance of successful charge. 

I think you want a chimera on the table to start in anything but allherd, to be honest. Darkwalkers can teleport to charge for a command point, and Gavespawn can give it an extra attack on each of 4 profiles with the command ability near a spawn. 

[Kazimer]

29 minutes ago, decker_cky said:

7+ to charge is a 60/40 proposition (58.33%, to be precise). With a reroll, there's an 82.6% chance of successful charge. 

I think you want a chimera on the table to start in anything but allherd, to be honest. Darkwalkers can teleport to charge for a command point, and Gavespawn can give it an extra attack on each of 4 profiles with the command ability near a spawn. 

How is it 60? 7 is exactly half on a 2d6 roll, and in AoS its not as if you have that inch like in 40k, its half an inch meaning you gotta roll exactly the distance.

[decker_cky]

21/36 (58.33%) of possible results when rolling 2d6 result in a roll of 7 or higher.  7 is the average roll on 2d6, but 21/36 results on 2d6 are 7 or higher. 

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm#.XYztvUZKiUl

 

[Slave2Chaos]

@Blightlord it still all falls under Beast of chaos allegiance ... so you can at least use all the cool stuff the book offers.

 

warheard / thunderscorn / Brayherd are all sub categories  of beasts of chaos. You get their respective bonuses regardless of what’s in your list ... Just need the particular keyword ... page 60 of the battletomb probably explains it better.

[Kazimer]

1 hour ago, decker_cky said:

21/36 (58.33%) of possible results when rolling 2d6 result in a roll of 7 or higher.  7 is the average roll on 2d6, but 21/36 results on 2d6 are 7 or higher. 

http://www.thedarkfortress.co.uk/tech_reports/2_dice_rolls.htm#.XYztvUZKiUl

 

Ah, yeah sorry I forgot the dice probability changes when you add in more dice, not as simple as a 1d6. Fair enough!

[Sauriv]

Has anyone tested the combo of going Darkwalker, start with chimera on the bord; turn 1 cast cogs and start the teleportation on the chimera; turn 2, try cast taurus, have chimera appear and charge alongside other stuff in ambush? 

It feels quite reliable i think, chimera having +4 to charge and e.g.  Bullgors charge in with a +3

[Maddpainting]

34 minutes ago, Sauriv said:

Has anyone tested the combo of going Darkwalker, start with chimera on the bord; turn 1 cast cogs and start the teleportation on the chimera; turn 2, try cast taurus, have chimera appear and charge alongside other stuff in ambush? 

It feels quite reliable i think, chimera having +4 to charge and e.g.  Bullgors charge in with a +3

I used to do this stuff all the time, my adepticon list heavily used some of these tactics. The players (all but 1) knew the tactic and made it very hard to use tho. So i instead just let them go first (I had a 2 drop) and sat back a bit farther to try for turn 1 charges and double turns. I dont like the Taurus (yes it is good, but i ever get it off, they auto stop it, or have + to deny, or i just fail at casting it, at least Cogs i can cast it out of range). 

But yes Chimera with an additional +2 to charge is amazing, it was more worth it to keep it in a more safe spot turn 1 and use it to counter the opponent, unless they have shooting, SCE and some Skaven players it really doesn't last long on the table.

Oh PS: I still do for fun games, we are playing Forbidden power these next few weeks, and i am taking 3 Chimeras with Cogs, b.c my Narrative relic gives a Run and Charge aura to all friendly units. But for events i no longer start with 1, HoS, SCE, Skaven, etc.. it just isn't worth it for events.

Edited September 26, 2019 by Maddpainting

[Myrdin]

So talking about Chimeras.... Can a monster benefit from cover via friendly model, when its another monster ?

eg> you stuff you Chimera behind a Gorghon, making it hard to target with LoS shooting and spells. Would that work ?

Also very interesting idea with the Cogs. I dont like using endless spells thus never really thought of using them in conjunction with the Chimera for a cumulative +4 to charge (didnt think of it as a stacking bonus).

Will have to try this out when I get back to playing (been indulging in some smaller games like Warcry lately 😛 so my AoS is on the back burner for the moment. Want to get back to it once CoS launches though) my Beasts again.

[Maddpainting]

Cover rules are very simple, if you are full in/on cover you get cover, unless you are a monster/war machine with 8 or more wounds. Otherwise you cannot have cover sadly.

I also play IDK, and this is why i dont like the Sharks at all, unless its 80pts (compare to what they are now 120pts) the i would use them b.c they are monsters with 10 wounds, and the army gets cover for being in the open (its a army and unit ability), but they dont benefit from it.

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