Vasshpit Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Yeah, i feel like our heroes ethereal save could go to a 3+ and be fair and not OP at all. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Not even all the heroes, just the named ones 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) 50 minutes ago, Tropical Ghost General said: Not even all the heroes, just the named ones PREACH Honestly our named charscters are unbeleivably frail for what they cost. Oly is 280 for 7 wnds 4+ save? The slaves to darkness Mammoth is 300 something for 22 wounds. Edited October 22, 2018 by Neck-Romantic 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 Lady O is 240pts and against super low bravery, single wound models she's awesome. Only trouble is that there aren't that many single wound low bravery models about ?. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dmorley21 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 There's some legitimate gripes with the book, but I feel like the gameplay for this army is different than what's been discussed. This isn't an alpha strike army or an attrition army; it's a hybrid of the two. We can deep strike to set up mismatches and take out or hurt key units. Our troops in general are fast, tanky against non-mortals, and can hit hard. Hit the enemy and board in strategic spots. Set up mismatches so that our units can be as effective as possible. Then after that initial wave, it becomes a battle of attrition with our ghosts being able to outmaneuver most opponents. But we won't win the battle of attrition unless we deep strike first IMO. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espy85 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 you're right. but it is not enough. our units do not strike as hard as they seem and they die too easily. yesterday 40 chainrasp were eliminated in one turn by 4 enlightened, without buff. I had given an extra attack and the second save, but nothing, 40 lost models, even before a turn I lost ten hexwraith. the problem is not so much the attack, that can be good, our weak point is really the war of friction. we are too weak. what you suggest is what I did with tzeentch yesterday, but it did not help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 38 minutes ago, Espy85 said: 40 chainrasp were eliminated in one turn by 4 enlightened, without buff ? Tbh I have found that my current winning streak has been solely to getting 4 or 5 10+ charges off in a game. Up until those charges have happened, it's been seriously playing on the back foot. The last game against bloodbound (where my grims went nuts with their charges), I had 60 grims, kurdoss and a GoS in deepstrike, I then had 20 rasps, 16 glaives, another GoS, a torment and a cairn wraith on the board. My opponent almost tabled me in turn one with his blood thirster covering 30" easily. At the end of turn one I had 8 glaives, the torment and the GoS left on the board and they had left me no where to bring my deepstriking units, literally no where at all. They got priority on the 2nd turn and if it hadn't been for some seriously lucky saving rolls, they would have tabled me and won before I could bring on my deepstriking units. In my second turn literally the only place I had to bring in the deepstriking units was on the very edge on my own board edge. Luckily the 30 grims got a 10+ and killed the bloodthirster that had wrecked me. I then got priority for turn 3 (just) and was able to bring everything else on, then rolled 4 x 10+ with 2 units of grims, kurdoss and a GoS. Those two turns of 5 x 10+ won the game without a shadow of a doubt. But had it not been for pure luck, I would have been tabled turn 2, because the models on the board had no staying power, and that's with me getting healing spells off every turn, I literally got minced and it's not a one off thing, it happens repeatedly in games, I get munched so easily by either sheer weight of numbers, get spammed with lots of mortal wounds or having incredibly high damage attacks getting through. Without the 10+'s I would be losing every game by turn 2 or turn 3 and it's frustrating that the only battleplans that you can make are based on getting those 10+'s to happen, knowing that in the majority of toe-to-toe matches you'll be losing every time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 WoT is a fun and thematic rule... but is also the fulcrum by which we win or lose. And I feel it is weighted quite heavily in our points cost. You balancw WoT against Deepkins turn-by-turn shenanigans for example. Take away WoT and we will SERIOUSLY underperform. Take away their escalating rules and they can still perform more than adequetly. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 @Neck-Romantic hitting the nail on the head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miguel_fernan Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 10 minutes ago, Neck-Romantic said: WoT is a fun and thematic rule... but is also the fulcrum by which we win or lose. And I feel it is weighted quite heavily in our points cost. You balancw WoT against Deepkins turn-by-turn shenanigans for example. Take away WoT and we will SERIOUSLY underperform. Take away their escalating rules and they can still perform more than adequetly. This is so true. I dont think I`ve ever won a game when I didnt at least got 2 good wrath of terror charges. Btw Tomorrow I have the second game of my league (won first one), Ill report how it goes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espy85 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 after trying a horde army with large units, from the next game I think I'll change perspective by focusing on small units. the idea will be to assault. why spend 320 pts x 20 dreadscythe? and then they attack in 10 and die on the counterattack. better, I think, deploy 2 units of 10 that attack in 2 different phases using the ambush attack. in this way I will go to deploy more units that will allow me to control the field and put more units in ambush. I did a similar thing in the first game and despite losing the game was balanced. always against tzeentch. next week game against the dok 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) I have a few ideas on some things they could tweak. Olynder; +1 to cast and dispell. Shes supposedly touched by Nagash and elevated and whatnot, and DeathPope is known best for his +3 to cast and dispell. Doesnt make sense Reik can cast spells better than our Lady. Reikenor; cast 2 spells. Let us actually get some mileage out of his improved casting, take Lifestealer and actually be able to heal his self harm periodically. If thats too strong perhaps 1 spell if he +3's, 2 if he +1's Change our Heal OR Rez to function like Invocation. Jesus. Slight point reduction to Revenants and Dreads (making them 2 wounds would be CATASTROPHIC unless they change our heal mechanic) Give Spirit Hosts and Hexwraiths either a slight cost reduction or a discount for full squads. Knight of Shrouds (on foot) +1 to hit aura free rather than a command point Shroudguard Battalion buff applies to the Leader model chosen as well Small terrain peices (or endless spell) that gives an extra d3 models revived when a unit is affected by Spectral Lure or STorment ability, or reroll armor saves. Dreadblade Harrows reworked. They need to BE something. Give them mortal wounds, or an aura, or an impact charge, or small squad size. Imagine them as 2 to 6 with 5 wnds being rezzed by Oly or RotSH Mourn cost reduced to 240 Edited October 22, 2018 by Neck-Romantic 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tropical Ghost General Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 (edited) @Neck-Romantic I want to like those suggestions but TGA won't let me, I've hit my like button limit for the day (again!). Have you sent this to the aos gw rules team. It's always worth sending suggestions like this is, as they do tend to go through them. Edited October 22, 2018 by Tropical Ghost General Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espy85 Posted October 22, 2018 Share Posted October 22, 2018 @Neck-Romantic, I add, more impact on the Bravery, the enemy units take a further -1 on the turn they are loaded or alternatively suffer a further -1 if within twelve by an ambush unit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) I would be all over Harrows if they were squads of 2 - 4 with 5 wounds, with their current stats. 2 for 160 points maybe? 4 for 300? Edited October 23, 2018 by Neck-Romantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espy85 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I would do 2x160, 4x320, 6x400. However I doubt that they do, I believe that at first the Harrow were already designed to be a unit of two models, but at last the GW has changed to not kill the Hexwraith, they would no longer sold and in the list we would all choose the Harrows. To the list of changes I would also add the keywords hero for the Black Coach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) I feel their small unit size would prevent them from totally userping the hex... and they do no mortals. Their interesting melee profile and teleportation, plus synergy with Knights would make for a tough, elite squad. Give the Knight RotSH and off we go! I would run the hell out of it! I would go full Deathriders with it actually, kinda feels like exactly what we need. Use the army trait to summon a torment along for the ride as he gets gradually left behind (or when you hit the melee) and use his heals as 1 harrow soaks damage Edited October 23, 2018 by Neck-Romantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vasshpit Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) 38 minutes ago, Espy85 said: I believe that at first the Harrow were already designed to be a unit of two models, but at last the GW has changed to not kill the Hexwraith, they would no longer sold and in the list we would all choose the Harrows. Its a damn shame that rules are affected sooo much by sales. Its kinda sad really. I really do understand theyre a business but its kinda gross when you see things done in this manner. On the other hand, i wasn't there when the decision was made so I do not pretend to know all the details. But this act seems to rear its head more than I appreciate. Edited October 23, 2018 by Vasshpit Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) mKoS 6 for 400 adjusted Harrows 10x Hexwraiths 10x Hexwraiths 10x Chainrasps Black Coach Black Coach Deathriders 1950 points Sounds like zany fun! Edited October 23, 2018 by Neck-Romantic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Espy85 Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 I would replace the chainrasp with a chronomatic cog. To increase the speed, but in general yes, I would like to play it. @Vasshpit If sales affect the rules is not a problem, it happens in all battletomes, Vhordrai and Bloodseeker Palanquin serve to sell other Coven Throne and VLOZD to those who already own them, but on an army with so many choices and well done does not create damage, if instead you retouch an army shortly before its exit and it already has few choices, then it creates damage. I would also like to talk to the playtesters, to understand how effectively they played with this battletome... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morremerry Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 (edited) Hey, I was wondering about the spell Soul Cage. It says that Quote ...In addition, until the start of your next hero phase, that unit cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so, 1. Does this mean that if the debuffed target with soul cage is the only unit left from the opposing player that can still fight, that it can do so even if there are several Nighthaunt units fighting it who haven't fought yet? Or 2. Does it mean that even though it's the only/last unit that can fight from the non-Nighthaunt player that all the Nighthaunt units can still fight before it can fight? English isn't my native language so understanding these wordings in the rules is sometimes difficult. I play Nighthaunt and to me it seems like it's case 1 but it would be a lot cooler if it were case 2. Edited October 23, 2018 by Morremerry spelling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashes Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Regarding the underperformance of Nighthaunts some of you mentioned is this purely something that happened at tournament play? Because so far in my games (casual) everything felt quite balanced (ok against my DoK buddy it’s hard, but due to me better focusing on objectives it often worked out for my ghosts). I also get this feeling from most of the current battlereports on YouTube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neck-Romantic Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 @Morremerry Yes, soul cage only change the order of the enemy's activations, if you have 5 units in combat, but they have 2 and one is Caged; they activate the caged unit last but still before the rest of yours. Or, for example, if youre playing against Deepkin, and you cage a unit on turn 3, since they always go first, technically they activate the caged unit last... but still before any of yours. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morremerry Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 Thank you for clarifying! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kokoshi Posted October 23, 2018 Share Posted October 23, 2018 2 hours ago, Morremerry said: Hey, I was wondering about the spell Soul Cage. It says that 1. Does this mean that if the debuffed target with soul cage is the only unit left from the opposing player that can still fight, that it can do so even if there are several Nighthaunt units fighting it who haven't fought yet? Or 2. Does it mean that even though it's the only/last unit that can fight from the non-Nighthaunt player that all the Nighthaunt units can still fight before it can fight? English isn't my native language so understanding these wordings in the rules is sometimes difficult. I play Nighthaunt and to me it seems like it's case 1 but it would be a lot cooler if it were case 2. To me it has to be translated as the second option : "cannot fight in the combat phase unless all other enemy units that are eligible to fight have already done so". First option would have been "unless you have fought with all other allied units eligible to fight". So RAW a Deepkin unit would not be able to fight before you have fought with all your units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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