AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

[Tizianolol]

Thx! And after battleshock i can duplicate pink that run away or not?

Edited October 20, 2020 by Tizianolol

[RUNCMD]

6 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Thx! And after battleshock i can duplicate pink that run away or not?

Yep, only if you have the Pink Horror holding the banner. It's all outlined on the warscroll how it works.

[Gwendar]

So, you all wanna see a potentially oppressive list? Discussed some of this in Discord last night and figured I'd bring it here.
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (440)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
 

It isn't something I think I would ever run IRL as it would likely require about 120+ Blue Horrors due to the returning of models\healing causing a lot of Pink-Blue splits. Not a lot of raw power, but you're really just teleporting that unit of 20 in range of the Changeling and giving them an auto-charge, take an objective and then count as double models. Your opponent now has to chew through an inescapable100+ wounds worth of Horrors that are -2 to hit in melee and -1 to hit at range.

Stack the other Horrors on objectives (who can also be -1  to hit) in such a way that they can't get to them and just sit there for a few turns while they try to whittle down the Horrors.

[SleeperAgent]

49 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

So, you all wanna see a potentially oppressive list? Discussed some of this in Discord last night and figured I'd bring it here.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Changeling (140)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Fluxmaster, Herald of Tzeentch on Disc (130)
- Artefact: Aspect of Tzeentch
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality

Battleline
20 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (440)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)

Units
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Emerald Lifeswarm (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 89
 

It isn't something I think I would ever run IRL as it would likely require about 120+ Blue Horrors due to the returning of models\healing causing a lot of Pink-Blue splits. Not a lot of raw power, but you're really just teleporting that unit of 20 in range of the Changeling and giving them an auto-charge, take an objective and then count as double models. Your opponent now has to chew through an inescapable100+ wounds worth of Horrors that are -2 to hit in melee and -1 to hit at range.

Stack the other Horrors on objectives (who can also be -1  to hit) in such a way that they can't get to them and just sit there for a few turns while they try to whittle down the Horrors.

Stuff like this is why I see another nerf down the road.  I think they should just let pinks dying generate normal fate points. Then raise the summoning cost on pinks and lower some other things.

Best case, pinks get a minor nerf. Worst case, Hosts Duplicitous gets nerfed like Petrifex did.

[Gwendar]

6 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Stuff like this is why I see another nerf down the road.  I think they should just let pinks dying generate normal fate points. Then raise the summoning cost on pinks and lower some other things.

Best case, pinks get a minor nerf. Worst case, Hosts Duplicitous gets nerfed like Petrifex did.

I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing?

I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control.

Edited October 21, 2020 by Gwendar

[Ganigumo]

3 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing?

I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control.

I haven't played with them, so I might be wrong, but I think pinks are mostly fine, its the interaction with healing that puts them WAY over the edge, although I'm not sure what the solution to that is, other than not being able to heal them at all, the fact that there is potential healing on the warscroll, and we can forcibly trigger it with destiny dice certainly doesn't help.

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

I haven't played with them, so I might be wrong, but I think pinks are mostly fine, its the interaction with healing that puts them WAY over the edge, although I'm not sure what the solution to that is, other than not being able to heal them at all, the fact that there is potential healing on the warscroll, and we can forcibly trigger it with destiny dice certainly doesn't help.

True, but even with Fold Reality alone you have the potential to get back 5 wounds per model restored.. and yeah, get a 1 on BS to get even more. I can see the Banner getting changed (even though all other daemons do the same thing I believe) but Fold Reality would need to be completely re-written or just not be used on Horrors which... would then make it a non-include except in Hosts Arcanum or Conflag with big units of Screamers\Flamers.

A lot of lists aren't actually bringing healing or Multitudinous Host. I think a decent medium would be just make them split evenly.. the fact you have to buy 2 boxes of Blues\Brims per 1 box of Pink just sucks. That said, it would kill their some of their sales if they did that so who knows.. as it stands you want to wipe the whole unit if they have Fold Reality\-insert return slain models here- but putting them at only 30 wounds total vs 50 drastically lowers their ability to survive a lot of hammers out there while still being a reasonably good screen\wound block.

[SleeperAgent]

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I'll be honest, I would much prefer that and I wouldn't feel like I would need to bring along as many. I'd rather see them split into a single Blue than 2 but I don't know if they'll change that. Right now, the fact that I have to buy\build\paint\transport 2-3x the amount of Blues to Pinks is just dumb. What you're proposing would be a bit closer to how they used to work anyway... just make each dead Pink worth 2 and Blues worth 1.. maybe Brims worth nothing?

I agree though, I think Pinks are what need to be looked at. 220 points for 50+ wounds is nuts.. a lot of the strongest punchy units in the game are still only putting put 35-45 damage on average with some cases easily clearing 50-70 damage. HD is strong, but Conflag and lately Hosts Arcanum have been stronger.. but Conflag is just good because Flamers are good while Pinks are just incredible in general. Not being able to retreat is a big deal, but so many units are already losing out on a whole turn even if they could retreat since they can't shoot\charge barring a few exceptions.. the most they can do is run onto an objective to regain control.

Oh believe me I feel your pain. I am currently building Tzeentch and so tired of how many models I have to build. They took away the fate points because they didn't balance the summoning costs, just like with Slaneesh.  They need to either let them generate fate points, or only break down 1-1-1. Regardless,  with Hosts Duplicitous its going to be a nightmare for armies without teleports.

[Ganigumo]

1 minute ago, Gwendar said:

True, but even with Fold Reality alone you have the potential to get back 5 wounds per model restored.. and yeah, get a 1 on BS to get even more. I can see the Banner getting changed (even though all other daemons do the same thing I believe) but Fold Reality would need to be completely re-written or just not be used on Horrors which... would then make it a non-include except in Hosts Arcanum or Conflag with big units of Screamers\Flamers.

A lot of lists aren't actually bringing healing or Multitudinous Host. I think a decent medium would be just make them split evenly.. the fact you have to buy 2 boxes of Blues\Brims per 1 box of Pink just sucks. That said, it would kill their some of their sales if they did that so who knows.. as it stands you want to wipe the whole unit if they have Fold Reality\-insert return slain models here- but putting them at only 30 wounds total vs 50 drastically lowers their ability to survive a lot of hammers out there while still being a reasonably good screen\wound block.

I think the idea of a unit of with lots of wounds, and a low save is good, and horrors are one of the only true "anvils" in AOS (most other "anvils" either being bad, able to grind out combat effectively, or just beasts in combat (HGB). If there was an easy way to limit healing to only heal 1 wound (maybe splitting only works the first time the model is slain?) but the rules would get complex.

I agree its a pain you need 2 boxes of blues/brims for every box of pinks though

[Gwendar]

2 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

Oh believe me I feel your pain. I am currently building Tzeentch and so tired of how many models I have to build. They took away the fate points because they didn't balance the summoning costs, just like with Slaneesh.  They need to either let them generate fate points, or only break down 1-1-1. Regardless,  with Hosts Duplicitous its going to be a nightmare for armies without teleports.

There's a reason I generally run no more than 10-20 Pinks in my lists. I'm just in favor of 1-1-1 rather than them generating FP.. I feel that even in HD they would be toned down a bit just because they would be easier to 1-shot the whole unit. With 50+ wounds as explained above, there's a lot of units that can't 1 shot them and then 1 Fold Reality later and you have problems again.

1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:

I think the idea of a unit of with lots of wounds, and a low save is good, and horrors are one of the only true "anvils" in AOS (most other "anvils" either being bad, able to grind out combat effectively, or just beasts in combat (HGB). If there was an easy way to limit healing to only heal 1 wound (maybe splitting only works the first time the model is slain?) but the rules would get complex.

I agree its a pain you need 2 boxes of blues/brims for every box of pinks though

Yeah, I don't think they need to get more complex.. splitting horrors as is has confused opponents into thinking you're doing some shady stuff. Ah well... we'll see what they do. The next big FAQ should be in December.. perhaps they'll do more than just another points increase.

I really, really wish they would just learn to update the scrolls during these FAQ's and not force people to wait 1-2 years for their new battletomes. 

[SleeperAgent]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

There's a reason I generally run no more than 10-20 Pinks in my lists. I'm just in favor of 1-1-1 rather than them generating FP.. I feel that even in HD they would be toned down a bit just because they would be easier to 1-shot the whole unit. With 50+ wounds as explained above, there's a lot of units that can't 1 shot them and then 1 Fold Reality later and you have problems again.

I mean, I'm already working on lists that maximize minuses to hit. 30 wounds would become nigh impossible to remove.

And I hate that by buying 4 start collecting boxes I have to buy EIGHT blue/brim boxes to get full value.

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, SleeperAgent said:

I mean, I'm already working on lists that maximize minuses to hit. 30 wounds would become nigh impossible to remove.

But to some extent I almost think that's okay, no? To me, Tzeentch is at it's most unique when it's playing in a control\debuff style of play.. but even then I typically find Flamer Spam to be "better" just by wiping 2-4 units off the table per turn. I think if they go too heavy handed, then there could be a major drop in players as it would lost it's uniqueness.

We don't have a super strong CC setup outside of ultra-fragile Enlightened and the shooting is good in 1 particular setup (to a lesser extent, Pyrofane is decent in this regard too) but I've always felt the best lists should be all about summoning, shutting down and debuffing with the majority of damage being from spells. If any of that got tone down then I would really consider shelving them.

My 6 wizard list is so strong not because of HD or Horrors, it's mostly because of Be'lakor and Kairos being able to just say "sit down" to 2 units in 1 turn.. or 2 turns for Be'lakor if they get a double.

[RUNCMD]

I don't think Pinks splitting into blues/brims will ever get us fate points,  it would make it easier to summon in other items and just ultimately spam them, like screamers or flamers. Also if they went back to the old method of Blue and Brim points, it'd mean FAR too much overhead in tracking everything again and it'd ****** a lot of people off. Pissed me off when I played the old tome.

I see what everyone is saying regarding how they need a re-work, but honestly, a single unit of Pinks and the way it works now is a fantastic screen and is just that. Sure if you stack them into 2 big blobs it means that you can just hold an objective and the opponent has to chew threw them but this is totally a synergy of the army, the lore and also part of GW's profits

I think I'm more interested in seeing GW bring more balance to the Mortal/Tzaangor side of the army before just squatting the Horrors because as someone mentioned above, they are a great Anvil, one of the best in the game, and as Gwendar Mentioned, the army is all about control of the board, and that takes a lot to master in it's own. Anything with big shooting (where I feel the meta is going atm in a lot of armies), or Melee can easily take down a single unit of Pinks and Blues and Brims in a turn, especially with rend. If they do split evenly though they need to come down in points.

I couldn't agree more with this though:

2 hours ago, Gwendar said:

I really, really wish they would just learn to update the scrolls during these FAQ's and not force people to wait 1-2 years for their new battletomes. 

Across their whole range!

[Ganigumo]

@RUNCMD Agreed on the mortal/arcanite bit. After reading an article by Jervis in the most recent white dwarf they invited readers to suggest what they think points should be at. I didn't touch daemons much with my suggestions (although I regret not suggesting an increase for blue scribes).
My suggestions for Tzeentch were:
LoC down 30 (Changehost up 30 to compensate)
Alter-kin Coven: down 60 , this battalion's effect is super weak, the organization isn't good, and Cult of the Transient form is easily the weakest subfaction, which this battalion is aimed at. If the composition isn't changed to 1+ kairics and 1+ tzaangors at least let us take this in multiples.
Acolytes down 10: Tzeentch mortals are weak comparable to the daemon half, making the battleline a bit cheaper should help

Tzaangors: Same cost, but unit size is 5-30. AFAIK Tzaangors are the only warscroll in its "position" (2 wound semi elite infantry) that can't be taken in 5s, and 15 seems like a sweet spot between keeping their +1 attack and the points cost.
Tzaangor Enlightened (on Foot): down 10, Battleline if Tzaangor General. The only reason to really take these guys is to lessen the cost of battalion requirements, this makes them more competitive and helps Tzaangor heavy builds reach battleline easier.
Tzaangor Skyfires: down 30-40? Shooting isn't costed at a premium anymore, and the damage output on these guys is pathetic in comparison to flamers, which are in the same book. Even arcanite builds would probably want to take flamers over skyfires.

Overall this would open up a lot of arcanite builds. Tzaangor Coven would get a ton of points to play with overall (thanks to having 3 battleline in the battalion and being able to take those Tzaangor units in 15s instead of 20s to be useful), and cult of the transient form would still be pretty mediocre, but could get a lot of artifacts and CP. Pyrofane would just save points on all of those kairics which would be helpful and they're probably the strongest arcanite build anyways.

[RUNCMD]

@Ganigumo a lot of interesting suggestions there and I like a lot of them! Interesting that they are asking people to come and comment, which is a great way to stay in touch with the player base and get real time info/data.

Some of my thinking based on what you have said:

- LOC coming down, couldn't agree more. Not because I want to include it in more lists but because I actually want to field more than 1 and not feel like I've just blown close to half of my 2k points.

- Blue scribes going up, don't think it's needed. They're only really dangerous on the Balewind (IMO) which I feel will get removed from matched play in AOS 3.0 anyway. We should enjoy it whilst it lasts! Also, they're  massive glass canon and really only that great in the first maybe 2nd round?

- I'm guessing your comment about Vanilla Tzaangs being able to be taken in units of 5 also means they would see the points drop relevant to that unit size and it would be at a bit more like 90 points for 5?

- Enlightened on foot as Battleline is TS is General, ohh boi, let me roll these D6's to see how many mortal wounds my bank account will suffer if that is the case! Hope there's a resale market for those discs!

- Alterkin down 60 - yeah I'm about this.

- Kairics down 10 - I'm also about this. OR a discount for taking 30... why there's no bargain on taking a blob of 30 is beyond me.

- Skyfires down in points will see a lot more use and also make the Battalion's more viable for sure.

Some suggestions I wish I could make (noting some of the ones you made above are also what I would make):

- Overhaul of Cult of the transient form regarding the ranges in which the "adding Tzaangor to a Tzaangor Unit" works

- Making the Ogroid (in addition to the Shaman) as general open up Tzaangor Enlightened on Foot as battleline

- Revamp of the Omniscient Oracles Battalion. Most laughable battalion in the book I think for what it costs and what you get. I really want to run this Battalion and coupled with your suggestion of drop in points for LOCs and Kairics, well it'd be fun to see on the table.

- Tzaangor Coven come down by 20 points due to current high cost of the units if they dont change the points for taking the units needed

- Discounts for taking max blobs of anything really...

 

But anyways, this is just a wish list Christmas FAQ list LOL.

I think if I could ask GW to do anything though it would be to change the speed at which they are releasing things like new tomes, take the time to play test things a lot more (minimum 4-5 months, idk) with proper external play testers (sign NDAs if they have to), lower the cost or at least drop this massive Tariff they have for Australian buyers/players (feels bad man) and also change this mentality of win at all costs I feel is seeping into AOS atm... I also think that this is coming from the 40k scene as well, as that seems to be struggling to maintain its player base (I say this only from what I am seeing in my local scene and also across Australia) as more and more players are coming over to AOS.  I feel that the win at all costs mentality comes from releasing things so fast and the latest meta armies... also It's becoming harder and harder to just keep up with the speed of things being released... does anyone else feel this? Whilst I know it's great for an ecosystem/game, it can also be pretty detrimental. I feel if they did a bit more of this that things would be more balanced? Maybe

Edited October 21, 2020 by RUNCMD

[Ganigumo]

@RUNCMD My ultimate fix to cult of the transient form would be to have a minor buff to tzaangors, and let you add the returned tzaangors to the kairic unit, as wierd as it would be ruleswise.

[Gwendar]

3 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

I don't think Pinks splitting into blues/brims will ever get us fate points,  it would make it easier to summon in other items and just ultimately spam them, like screamers or flamers. Also if they went back to the old method of Blue and Brim points, it'd mean FAR too much overhead in tracking everything again and it'd ****** a lot of people off. Pissed me off when I played the old tome.

I see what everyone is saying regarding how they need a re-work, but honestly, a single unit of Pinks and the way it works now is a fantastic screen and is just that. Sure if you stack them into 2 big blobs it means that you can just hold an objective and the opponent has to chew threw them but this is totally a synergy of the army, the lore and also part of GW's profits

Definitely don't go back to the old way... I think just having generate FP is okay.. maybe only from Pinks\Blues? I'm not really calling for them to be nerfed, but I don't think it would hurt a ton just having them split into 30 wounds over 50. If GW is going to gut them, that's just my most preferred way of doing it.. They'd still be a great screen and more units would be able to 1-shot them, which at 50 not a ton can if you have a CP to BS immune them.
 

3 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

Tzaangors: Same cost, but unit size is 5-30. AFAIK Tzaangors are the only warscroll in its "position" (2 wound semi elite infantry) that can't be taken in 5s, and 15 seems like a sweet spot between keeping their +1 attack and the points cost.

Tzaangor Enlightened (on Foot): down 10, Battleline if Tzaangor General. The only reason to really take these guys is to lessen the cost of battalion requirements, this makes them more competitive and helps Tzaangor heavy builds reach battleline easier.

Tzaangor Skyfires: down 30-40? Shooting isn't costed at a premium anymore, and the damage output on these guys is pathetic in comparison to flamers, which are in the same book. Even arcanite builds would probably want to take flamers over skyfires.

Lots of good stuff to breakdown there but I'll do it in the below response to RUNCMD's response to you.

I still think Tzaangors warscroll is mostly okay, but I think the cost on them needs to come down... or literally just give them somewhere to fit in where they would be buffed like Conflag and Pyrofane do for shooting. Transient Form should be a pure Tzaangor coven, not another one for Kairics who may turn into a Tzaangor you have nearby.

I'll tell you what though, if they lowered the cost and made the foot Enlightened battleline that would 100% have me sold into building into a CC based list with them.

I'm (of course) going to agree\disagree with Skyfires 😉. Yes, I do think they need a reduction.. but I don't think it's fair to compare their shooting to Flamers. They're just more of a "sniping" unit rather than "delete that entire block of 40" unit, and that's okay. For that cost you're getting something that can potentially snipe out 5-wound heroes at a 40" threat range, get +1 attack from the Agenda and clear 4+ save screens of 10-30 (depending on save) in CC.

With an Exalted, 12 Flamers outside of Conflag and not getting Aura of Mutability is 660 points and can put out ~21 damage on average. 6 Skyfires with +1 attack can do ~23 and a better potential to delete that little hero giving Stormfiends RR all hits and wounds and +1 damage. 
 

2 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

- LOC coming down, couldn't agree more. Not because I want to include it in more lists but because I actually want to field more than 1 and not feel like I've just blown close to half of my 2k points.

- Blue scribes going up, don't think it's needed. They're only really dangerous on the Balewind (IMO) which I feel will get removed from matched play in AOS 3.0 anyway. We should enjoy it whilst it lasts! Also, they're  massive glass canon and really only that great in the first maybe 2nd round?

 

I think if I could ask GW to do anything though it would be to change the speed at which they are releasing things like new tomes, take the time to play test things a lot more (minimum 4-5 months, idk) with proper external play testers (sign NDAs if they have to), lower the cost or at least drop this massive Tariff they have for Australian buyers/players (feels bad man) and also change this mentality of win at all costs I feel is seeping into AOS atm... I also think that this is coming from the 40k scene as well, as that seems to be struggling to maintain its player base (I say this only from what I am seeing in my local scene and also across Australia) as more and more players are coming over to AOS.  I feel that the win at all costs mentality comes from releasing things so fast and the latest meta armies... also It's becoming harder and harder to just keep up with the speed of things being released... does anyone else feel this? Whilst I know it's great for an ecosystem/game, it can also be pretty detrimental. I feel if they did a bit more of this that things would be more balanced? Maybe

LoC could definitely go down a bit more.. Kairos is objectively better in every way and only 20 more points. The reason you tend to see LoC is because GoS or Changehost requires it... and that's usually it (maybe a HA list with both since they get nudged 6" forward)

I also disagree on Scribes going up.. for most people they're just a RR battery and I find a Changecaster to be a much better option to put on a BW. For sure though.. our time with it is likely soon to end. I wouldn't be surprised if it went away in the Winter FAQ honestly.


This kind of thing about their speed comes up on discord often enough.. I just don't see them changing it. With trying to balance to gigantic game systems I really think they're just stuck in a neverending loop.. people always say "well at least it isn't as bad as 40k where people may only have a tome for 3 months" but I think AoS could quickly be approaching that. With these new books coming out (apparently the AoS equivalent to Psychic Awakening) then it could change things for the good or for the worse.

Tomes just seem to be a mixed bag of thrown together stuff sometimes and it seems to be a pattern with certain rules writers doing better jobs than others. I never expect true balance.. but in this day and age, giving more than 3 points changes\FAQs a year is pathetic. There's no excuse for the updates to not be more frequent and include more.. for so many units, a points drop isn't enough and they need small or large tweaks to be taken.

[RUNCMD]

1 minute ago, Ganigumo said:

@RUNCMD My ultimate fix to cult of the transient form would be to have a minor buff to tzaangors, and let you add the returned tzaangors to the kairic unit, as wierd as it would be ruleswise.

It would fit the lore though if the Tzaangors were added to the Kairic unit.

[Ganigumo]

Scribe's true power is the 2+ spell that can't be unbound, and that is very valuable IMO, which is why I could see them going up a bit.

[RUNCMD]

4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

This kind of thing about their speed comes up on discord often enough.. I just don't see them changing it. With trying to balance to gigantic game systems I really think they're just stuck in a neverending loop.. people always say "well at least it isn't as bad as 40k where people may only have a tome for 3 months" but I think AoS could quickly be approaching that. With these new books coming out (apparently the AoS equivalent to Psychic Awakening) then it could change things for the good or for the worse.

Tomes just seem to be a mixed bag of thrown together stuff sometimes and it seems to be a pattern with certain rules writers doing better jobs than others. I never expect true balance.. but in this day and age, giving more than 3 points changes\FAQs a year is pathetic. There's no excuse for the updates to not be more frequent and include more.. for so many units, a points drop isn't enough and they need small or large tweaks to be taken.

Agree mate on a whole lot, but I respectfully disagree regarding the neverending loop. BUT i will put the caveat that I've only been in the hobby for about 2-3 years now so im still very green compared to vets who have seen the transition from old world to AOS.

Couldnt agree more with some of the tomes being a mixed bag of being thrown together hey. I felt that a lot of the Son's of Behemat reflected a bit of this and some of the stuff was actually quite lazily written. Also, you're point re: 3 points changes/FAQS is spot on... if theyre willing to do that they may as well actually do some solid FAQing and assist with warscroll updates where needed.

The amount of books and rules coming out has me a bit nervous as well. Im keen on entering into tournaments, but not if I have to bring a book shelf with me just to play and be up to date with all the rules. It gets a bit much. I mean look at what they have just announced for Warcry (granted I dont play) but thats an extra 4 books on what seems like 3-4 that are already out?

Hopefully this broken realms is more in line with what we saw with Wrath, which is alright as it isn't a HUGE difference to the way we play... unlike the Realm Rules we got that are pretty average and lack luster.

[RUNCMD]

5 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Scribe's true power is the 2+ spell that can't be unbound, and that is very valuable IMO, which is why I could see them going up a bit.

Correct, however I don't think this justifies them going up. It's great to couple this with tzeentch's firestorm or something high to cast but if he isnt on a balewind most of the time the re-rolls are what they are usually taken for I feel.

[Gwendar]

10 minutes ago, Ganigumo said:

Scribe's true power is the 2+ spell that can't be unbound, and that is very valuable IMO, which is why I could see them going up a bit.

Sure, but I guess it's hard for me to gauge in an era of hyper-charged wizards +2-4 to cast with or without RR's being out there.. or Teclis not even needing to roll. At most I can see 160, more than that and you're really stretching  the value.
 

5 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Agree mate on a whole lot, but I respectfully disagree regarding the neverending loop. BUT i will put the caveat that I've only been in the hobby for about 2-3 years now so im still very green compared to vets who have seen the transition from old world to AOS.

Couldnt agree more with some of the tomes being a mixed bag of being thrown together hey. I felt that a lot of the Son's of Behemat reflected a bit of this and some of the stuff was actually quite lazily written. Also, you're point re: 3 points changes/FAQS is spot on... if theyre willing to do that they may as well actually do some solid FAQing and assist with warscroll updates where needed.

The amount of books and rules coming out has me a bit nervous as well. Im keen on entering into tournaments, but not if I have to bring a book shelf with me just to play and be up to date with all the rules. It gets a bit much. I mean look at what they have just announced for Warcry (granted I dont play) but thats an extra 4 books on what seems like 3-4 that are already out?

Hopefully this broken realms is more in line with what we saw with Wrath, which is alright as it isn't a HUGE difference to the way we play... unlike the Realm Rules we got that are pretty average and lack luster.

I worded that poorly I think.. I mean games like these are always going to be in a never-ending loop or else it dies 😅. I just have an issue with half-baked books and units being thrown out while other clearly get more attention or vastly different power levels in terms of rules.. and thats frustrating. I think perfect balance is impossible, but they can do far better.

SoB was a letdown for me and so many others, especially with you all since they gouged the price so much on you all. It was the same with Gitz and BoC, even with Nurgle; all books "made with 2nd edition in mind" yet there was a noticeable power increase right after. They've shown that they can completely re-write scrolls with the Plague Monks.. so why is it so difficult to give units 3+ to hit or change\add a wording? I can't name the amount of units that would be vastly improved if they just hit on 3's and not 4's.. but I digress.

I get your point with books... I was kinda suggested into 40k recently but the more I look at it and what I need to buy\remember\read up on etc has really pushed me away from it.. and I really fear for AoS going the same way eventually. Broken Realms will be the key that really shows what their plans are I think. I play a couple of other wargames (ASoIaF, Armada and Legion) so if I ever got burnt out, I have stuff to fall back on.. but AoS is always my main game and I'd hate to see them lose sight.

[SleeperAgent]

7 hours ago, RUNCMD said:

I don't think Pinks splitting into blues/brims will ever get us fate points,  it would make it easier to summon in other items and just ultimately spam them, like screamers or flamers. Also if they went back to the old method of Blue and Brim points, it'd mean FAR too much overhead in tracking everything again and it'd ****** a lot of people off. Pissed me off when I played the old tome.

I don't mean, splitting generates fate points. I meant that rather than petty vengeance, killing a pink EITHER splits into a blue, OR the controller generates a fate point. So the controller has the option. Combine that with a 1-1-1 split and they could come down to 140-160 points. This way people who want the 30 wound anvil can have it, but a lot more summoning lists could come out. Getting a free 30 fate points turn one because you got alpha striked and all your pinks are gone is a cool thing imo.

[Tizianolol]

Guys i have a question about Casting kairos spell ( that can create spawns) on a unit of 10 arkanauts/ admiral  garrisoned into a ironclad.what happen in this case?

[Gwendar]

8 hours ago, SleeperAgent said:

I don't mean, splitting generates fate points. I meant that rather than petty vengeance, killing a pink EITHER splits into a blue, OR the controller generates a fate point. So the controller has the option. Combine that with a 1-1-1 split and they could come down to 140-160 points. This way people who want the 30 wound anvil can have it, but a lot more summoning lists could come out. Getting a free 30 fate points turn one because you got alpha striked and all your pinks are gone is a cool thing imo.

Ah, see I really like that. Although FP costs would need changing of course.

No one would want another Slaanesh before their 6 month FAQ where you kill all the Keepers just for them to get 1-2 back next turn 😅

2 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys i have a question about Casting kairos spell ( that can create spawns) on a unit of 10 arkanauts/ admiral  garrisoned into a ironclad.what happen in this case?

It would just come in within 3" of the garrison