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Gaz Taylor

AoS 2 - Disciples of Tzeentch Discussion

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Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Pyrofane Cult
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Shrouded in Unnatural Flame
- Artefact: Chainfire Amulet
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
Fatemaster (120)
Gaunt Summoner of Tzeentch (240)
- Lore of Change: Arcane Transformation
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Lore of Fate: Bolt of Tzeentch
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
20 x Kairic Acolytes (200)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
6 x Tzaangor Enlightened on Disc (360)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 125

Immediate thoughts are I need a balewind for extra range on the gaunt summoner and I've squandered my enlightened both times. I'm debating dropping 3 enlightened and spell portal for a balewind and wytchfire coven too get the artefact rerolls on the GS spells, but I would really miss the combat potential of 6 enlightened and I can only see the hero phase shooting being useful turn 2. Should I give the current list another go and just drop the portal for balewind?

Edited by Warmill

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@Warmill I always say it's worth testing a list 3-5 times against different armies before you change anything. Has it worked out at all for you? What glaring issues have happened if not?

Personally I like having 6 Enlightened.. lets them keep their hitting power up a bit longer\better since they will likely get hit before they can attack and having 3 is risky. I usually go 6 or none at all because of that reason. I don't know that the GS needs a BW but yeah that 12" range is tough.. I guess if your meta is running a lot of Hordes then it would probably be worth it? Those 6 Enlightened are probably just as likely to wipe said horde unit though if you give them the +1 attack agenda and charge the side of a unit to limit what can pile into it.

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1 hour ago, Gwendar said:

@Warmill I always say it's worth testing a list 3-5 times against different armies before you change anything. Has it worked out at all for you? What glaring issues have happened if not?

Personally I like having 6 Enlightened.. lets them keep their hitting power up a bit longer\better since they will likely get hit before they can attack and having 3 is risky. I usually go 6 or none at all because of that reason. I don't know that the GS needs a BW but yeah that 12" range is tough.. I guess if your meta is running a lot of Hordes then it would probably be worth it? Those 6 Enlightened are probably just as likely to wipe said horde unit though if you give them the +1 attack agenda and charge the side of a unit to limit what can pile into it.

Yeah as I say I've only played 2 games as tzeentch, I do like the combat potential of the enlightened so I would be sad to lose that, but then I figure 3 is enough to snipe heroes?

The issue I've found after 2 games is everything is 18" range so if the opponent hangs back they can really limit the effect of a round of spells and shooting, and spell portal only goes so far. To be honest I'm not totally sold on the battalion at 160 points but the rerolls on the summoner to help get arcane transformation might make the difference. Either way I can't wait to get a lot of games in to test it out!

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1 minute ago, Warmill said:

Yeah as I say I've only played 2 games as tzeentch, I do like the combat potential of the enlightened so I would be sad to lose that, but then I figure 3 is enough to snipe heroes?

The issue I've found after 2 games is everything is 18" range so if the opponent hangs back they can really limit the effect of a round of spells and shooting, and spell portal only goes so far. To be honest I'm not totally sold on the battalion at 160 points but the rerolls on the summoner to help get arcane transformation might make the difference. Either way I can't wait to get a lot of games in to test it out!

No worries! It's tough to say... 3 Enlightened could do that but if you wanna kill those 5-6 wound support heroes then you already have a Lord of Change + Portal and his 18" shot with Chainfire Amulet can put out a decent amount of mortals. Personally I would much rather have a unit of 6 who can actually deal with an equally strong threat, like 20 Hearthguard, 30 Witch Aelves... etc, etc.

As for the range issue, that's just kinda commonplace really. People should always be premeasuring to stay out of range, but they likely can't do that the whole game. Pyrofane + Witchfyre is okay, but it isn't top-tier by any means as it's mostly just a quantity of low quality shots. I meant to ask about Arcane Transformation though.. who did you plan to cast that on? I'm not sure if you were aware but you can only give the buff to a Hero, which isn't entirely useful since none really benefit from +1 Bravery, movement or +1 attack.

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37 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

No worries! It's tough to say... 3 Enlightened could do that but if you wanna kill those 5-6 wound support heroes then you already have a Lord of Change + Portal and his 18" shot with Chainfire Amulet can put out a decent amount of mortals. Personally I would much rather have a unit of 6 who can actually deal with an equally strong threat, like 20 Hearthguard, 30 Witch Aelves... etc, etc.

As for the range issue, that's just kinda commonplace really. People should always be premeasuring to stay out of range, but they likely can't do that the whole game. Pyrofane + Witchfyre is okay, but it isn't top-tier by any means as it's mostly just a quantity of low quality shots. I meant to ask about Arcane Transformation though.. who did you plan to cast that on? I'm not sure if you were aware but you can only give the buff to a Hero, which isn't entirely useful since none really benefit from +1 Bravery, movement or +1 attack.

Ah I meant arcane suggestion for the -1 to hit and wound, it's awesome on 40 skinks as they're basically totally gimped 🤣

 

I think yeah the battalion is a bit too much and I'll try keeping the extra enlightened and just squeeze in a balewind, I'm not worried about being 100% top tier as this army is a painting project, I'd just like to optimise it based on what I like about the army.

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@Gwendarif i remove changecaster and balewind,  what artifact you suggest to give to my fatemaster/shaman? I was thinking secret eater on fatemaster..:)

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42 minutes ago, Warmill said:

Ah I meant arcane suggestion for the -1 to hit and wound, it's awesome on 40 skinks as they're basically totally gimped 🤣

 

I think yeah the battalion is a bit too much and I'll try keeping the extra enlightened and just squeeze in a balewind, I'm not worried about being 100% top tier as this army is a painting project, I'd just like to optimise it based on what I like about the army.

Ah, yeah Arcane Suggestion is wonderful, especially in combination with Geminids and Be'lakor. That said if they're buffing the Skinks to do MW's on unmodified 6's (which is generally the case) then it won't really do much to them.

@Tizianolol None of the artifacts they can take are amazing by any means, but I think Paradoxical Shield on the Fatemaster would be humorous since he would be on a 2+ in melee and shooting with that.

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So I've been painting up this list:
Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Guild of Summoners
Mortal Realm: Ghyran

Leaders
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- Artefact: Brimstone Familiar
Tzaangor Shaman (150)
- General
- Command Trait: Prophet of the Ostensible
- Artefact: Everspring Diadem
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
Great Bray Shaman of Tzeentch (100)
The Blue Scribes (120)

Battleline
10 x Gors of Tzeentch (70)
10 x Gors of Tzeentch (70)
20 x Tzaangors (360)

Units
3 x Tzaangor Enlightened (100)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
3 x Tzaangor Skyfires (200)
10 x Ungor Raiders of Tzeentch (80)

Battalions
Phantasmagoria of Fate (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Chronomantic Cogs (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130

And after finishing my first Tzaangor shaman I'm looking to swap out the other for something else 😅. The only things I have left to paint are the second Tzaangor shaman, and the two endless spells (and a second Lord of change to summon). The list has exactly 9 spells at the moment if both Tzaangor shaman's chug their energy drinks.

How unrealistic would it be to pimp out a Magister instead? I'd need to roll a double, but I could have the Magister attempt to cast balewind, cogs, and his warscroll/Lore spell. Plus I could take an extra endless spell (maybe tome of eyes) or a command point.

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Hello, is there some good magic oriented list for tourney tzeentch? Im know that flamers are meta choice, but im want good magic based list with endlesses and pinks

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23 hours ago, Ganigumo said:

How unrealistic would it be to pimp out a Magister instead? I'd need to roll a double, but I could have the Magister attempt to cast balewind, cogs, and his warscroll/Lore spell. Plus I could take an extra endless spell (maybe tome of eyes) or a command point.

1 wizard can only attempt to cast 1 Endless spell per turn, so he couldn't do Balewind and Cogs in the same turn if that's what you were implying. The Magister is okay, but I've had the best success with the Disc version in Hosts Duplicitous where it can summon a Chaos Spawn with it's spell and that's pretty great when Kairos is doing the same thing. I feel like if you're going to have Enlightened and Skyfires, it makes more sense to have a Shaman with them.

If you want a casting turret, the Changecaster makes more sense on a Balewind (Pink Fire and Bolt of Tzeentch means 2 different d6 MW spells at 24") and only needs to roll a 9+ to cast another spell and doesn't have a chance of exploding.
 

20 hours ago, Tizianolol said:

In melee how it work? Its +4 on save roll?

I assume you're talking about the Fatemaster? He already gets a 2+ save in melee vs anything that can't fly or has the monster keyword. Put Paradoxical Shield on him and you get +4 to saves in melee (Paradoxical Shield gives +2 to all saves) but you have to RR all successes. In effect that means that if something was hitting him with 0 rend, he would only fail on 1's.

Against shooting the Paradoxical Shield would give him +2 and have him doing the same thing; only failing on 1's assuming 0 rend. I hope that makes sense? Just remember when you roll saves you apply RR's first and then modifiers which is very important in working out the above. Many people modify the save in their head first but really you should be rolling your natural save and then modifying it after you RR any dice if you have the ability to do so.
 

7 hours ago, simakover said:

Hello, is there some good magic oriented list for tourney tzeentch? Im know that flamers are meta choice, but im want good magic based list with endlesses and pinks

I run this more than anything and I have pretty good success with it:
 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Treason of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)

Units
6 x Tzaangor Skyfires (400)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 92
 

Now, if you want you can easily sub out the Skyfires and 10 Acolytes for another 10 Pinks and that would leave you at 1720. You can more Pinks or another Wizard and some Blues or something like that. I like having the Skyfires (or Enlightened if you want to go melee heavy against tougher units) to have another source of hero removal and it gives me a fast unit that can clear off lightly held objectives or go on the offensive pretty well against any 1 wound 5-6+ save type of units.

It's a heavily magic based list where the whole goal really is to generate FP to keep up blues\pinks. Be'lakor + Kairos is a pretty nutty combo as they can both shut down units while there is a collective -2 to hit and wound that can be thrown out here as well. On top of all that, enemy units can't retreat from anything they're in combat with which means the 1-2 Chaos Spawn you're throwing out per turn can easily keep units pinned down and unable to move.



Alternatively I've been thinking of trying this in Hosts Arcanum as you can shunt forward Kairos and\or a Lord of Change 6" and be in range to hit stuff with their spells without the need for a Spellportal.. but that's still in the theorycrafting stages 😉

Edited by Gwendar

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@Gwendar thx! I didnt immagine that. So if enemy hit fatemaster wirh paradox shield in melee. If he deal 3 wounds at -1 rend . I roll : 1,2,3 . I pass two saves (2,3) , but i have to reroll ,  my results are 1,2. Only one wound pass (1) . Is it right?;) thx a lot

 

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53 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

@Gwendar thx! I didnt immagine that. So if enemy hit fatemaster wirh paradox shield in melee. If he deal 3 wounds at -1 rend . I roll : 1,2,3 . I pass two saves (2,3) , but i have to reroll ,  my results are 1,2. Only one wound pass (1) . Is it right?;) thx a lot

Well, technically you would fail all of them and you wouldn't reroll them since they didn't succeed. All in all though, yes only 1 wound would go through because of the natural 1 you rolled. Let me try to break it down for you:

1. When you make saves, you always roll for your unmodified save, which in this case is a 4+. If you rolled a 1, 2 and 3, then you would fail all 3.
2. Rerolls now come into play, but since you failed all 3, you wouldn't "reroll any successes" from the Paradoxical Shield because none of them succeeded.
3. After rerolls, you apply modifiers (-'s and +'s to your save). This would mean that you apply your +4 to save and their -1 rend which altogether is +3 to your save.
4. Since natural rolls of 1 always fail before modifiers then even though you have a 1+ save you would still fail on any rolls of 1. The 2 and 3 you rolled would both pass, so you take 1 wound total (from the 1 that you rolled).


Luckily, GW has shifted away from RR'ing "failed" rolls because that makes the whole interaction even more of a pain. Anyway, it's still something I have to break down to my local guys every now and then because it's natural to just say "okay so that's -2 rend and I have a 3+ save so I need to roll 5's". That's fine to do so long as there are no RR's involved. Hopefully all that made sense 😅

Edited by Gwendar
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@Gwendar I totally forgot each wizard can only cast 1 endless spell a turn, i might need to go over the list again to be sure. I should just suck it up and paint the shaman I guess.

The enlightened are kind of like filler here too, I figure I can stick them right behind a units of gors so they can fight after I take a charge.

I've been toying with the idea of cutting both the second shaman, and the enlightened, which would let me bring in curseling, alongside another unit of bodies, or maybe balefire taurus.

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Got a 1 game per week 2k league starting today with the ability to change lists per opponent. Now, I probably won't do that as I want to develop all-comers lists rather than tailor... but I think these are some variants I will be running throughout.

Duplicitous full-casting:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Duplicitous

Leaders
Chaos Sorcerer Lord on Manticore (260)
- General
- Command Trait: Will of the Phantom Lord
- Artefact: Brand of the Spirit Daemon
- Lore of Fate: Infusion Arcanum
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Magister on Disc of Tzeentch (140)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
10 x Kairic Acolytes (100)
- 7x Cursed Blade & Arcanite Shield
- 3x Cursed Glaives

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 80

A new iteration on my magic-based Duplicitous builds.. swapping out Skyfires for more bodies and Wizards to generate even more bodies. Not much forward board presence, but interested in trying it out nonetheless. If it doesn't work after a couple games, I'll probably switch back to the Skyfires at the cost of some Pinks and the Sorc Lord or something as that's consistently done better anyway. "Ain't broke don't fix it" kind of thing 😉


Arcanum Chaos Knights:

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Hosts Arcanum

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Spell Hunters
- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm
Kairos Fateweaver (400)
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
Chaos Sorcerer Lord (110)
- Lore of Fate: Arcane Suggestion
Be'Lakor (240)

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)
3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)

Units
10 x Chaos Knights (320)
- Ensorcelled Weapons

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Darkfire Daemonrift (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 99

Definitely more experimental in nature... I'm kind of splitting focus here which means this is the most likely list to get tweaked. I initially had it with no LoC and a Pink. Lord of Change + Kairos in Hosts Arcanum means you can use the 6" extra movement at the start of the game on them to get all those 18" spells in range of something if an opponent deploys poorly.


Eternal Changehost (with Bridge!):

Spoiler

Allegiance: Tzeentch
- Change Coven: Eternal Conflaguration

Leaders
Lord of Change (380)
- General
- Command Trait: Coruscating Flames
- Artefact: Shroud of Warpflame
- Lore of Change: Fold Reality
Changecaster, Herald of Tzeentch (110)
- Artefact: Aura of Mutability
- Lore of Change: Bolt of Tzeentch
The Blue Scribes (120)
- Lore of Change: Tzeentch's Firestorm

Battleline
10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)
6 x Flamers of Tzeentch (280)

Units
1 x Exalted Flamers of Tzeentch (100)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)
10 x Brimstone Horrors of Tzeentch (60)

Battalions
Changehost (180)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Balewind Vortex (40)
Umbral Spellportal (70)
Soulscream Bridge (100)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 82
 

So I mean... yeah it's a Changehost with Flamer spam, but it has a Bridge. I've talked about it a lot but not sure if it was ever posted. While I will almost always be choosing who goes first, the Bridge does allow everything to teleport right up the board and get the Flamers in range.. so it kind of works like most CoS lists that take 20+ Irondrakes across a Bridge. I wouldn't say it relies on a double turn but it definitely really wants it in which case it can almost always seal the game then and there. Scribes can auto-cast Bridge on a 2+, Flamers delete 1-2 units at a minimum and Kairos + Balewind Changecaster have plenty of range to MW off 1-2 Heroes.

Don't know that I'll bring the Flamer list that often.. but my plan is to get at least 1 batrep in with each list. First up is against Idoneth, so not sure which to choose in that instance, but I think the control based casting list would be the most interesting to try in that scenario. Been another slow workday so I figured I would just drop these here for some more discussion 😅

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@Gwendar my only feedback is really on your Arcanum list, and swapping out the Chaos Knights for Chaos Chosen, and for the sole reason of Base Size and being able to maximize the output. I think the Base Size of the Knights in a block of 10 is not really worth it, for 10, but two blocks of 5 is. Getting the Chaos Chosen in though and maximizing their output is even better, especially if with the extra points you took a bridge to get them where you want? Also, the sorc on foot would be able to keep up with them easier than the Knights.

Most interested to see how your Duplicitous list goes! Looks tasty and fun as! Also if you got all spells off, double turn and then summon in another two units of Blue or unit of Pinks thats just awesome! I'm finding that Blues are the best bang for buck in terms of summons at the moment with the magic heavy lists. Also love seeing Chaos Sorc Lord on Manticore in any Tzeentch list! Spesh with Kairos!

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Toying with this Pyrofane Cult/Witchfyre Coven list for a Tournie I have coming up soon. There's a few things that are wrong with it for good reason, the fact that the Pyro Cult artefact is on the Fatemaster who has no shooting attack to start, but this is to be able to give the aura of mutability to the Fluxmaster on Disc to buff the Pinks. Couple that with the Pinks inbuilt spell of +1 to Hit, also possibly re-rolling their shots if deployed with the Fatemaster correctly, and then also the Fluxmaster adding +1 to wounds from the Artefact it's making them a bit more nastier, in a single block of 10. Put the big unit of 30 Kairics behind the pinks so they don't get charged, along with the Fatemaster and you have some pretty decent block of shooting and also magic from the Flux if he does his inbuilt (if not needing to do Fold = very risky play haha).

Both the Shards and the Shackles to slow the enemy down and also the Shards mechanic is less likely to come back at you if you decide to take the turn if winning the roll off, which I much prefer. Shackles doing their slow movement which is great just need to make sure you dont end up anywhere really.

Also deploying the Enlightened behind the unit of 10 Kairics (very much the weakest part of the army in the list being a unit of 10) so that they can avoid the charge if they are charged, the kairics can take the beating then the Enlightened get the re-rolls potentially.

The other block of 20 Kairics holds up a bit better on it's own, but I think honestly could use the support of something like the Blue Scribes to hold an objective (CP for Battleshock) and giving the Scribes the Chance to either cast Tzeentch's Firestorm or even Bolt on the 2+) is great.

I just don't know if Pyro/Witchfyre lists should be taking the LOC at this point given how high the Battalion costs, the cost of the LOC and also what you need to make it a bit more viable. Also after using a block of 30 Kairics, I honestly think it is the ONLY way to go now with this combo, and if you can maximize the size of their units you should everytime. It really hurts not getting a discount on them though - even a 40 point discount would be welcomed in my mind, because it leaves a lot of room for adding things in.

Not sold on the Endless Spells, but honestly, running and charging is something that just hurts hard Turn 1 for Tzeentch, so most of the time i'm finding that im going first and blocking the Enemy's movement or even just forcing them to not go places and filtering them into the big blob of 30 kairics and the Pinks, is really helpful! That board control is really critical atm with the local and emerging wider meta im finding.

Honestly the best way I've found to use Enlightened is to hold them back a bit, don't just push them out front straight away and make the opponent fear them for longer. Also because of their movement, snagging late game objectives is HUGE, same with the Fluxmaster running over somewhere, dumping some blues, then heading somewhere else later. Always put the Blues in front of him though - learnt that the hard way :s.

image.png.f4dced7368618561cdfc1a62dff5f8d1.png

Any and all feedback is appreciated / welcomed! Still tweaking it atm, but i'll mostly be sticking to the above and tweaking as needed.

Side note: Previous list has included x6 Flamers and 1 Exalted, hiding behind a line of Kairics and also coupled with the Fluxmaster, which instills a lot of fear as well, but it doesn't really cut the mustard too well I have found, albeit I could be playing it wrong.

 

Edit: stuffs.

Edited by RUNCMD

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30 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

@Gwendar my only feedback is really on your Arcanum list, and swapping out the Chaos Knights for Chaos Chosen, and for the sole reason of Base Size and being able to maximize the output. I think the Base Size of the Knights in a block of 10 is not really worth it, for 10, but two blocks of 5 is. Getting the Chaos Chosen in though and maximizing their output is even better, especially if with the extra points you took a bridge to get them where you want? Also, the sorc on foot would be able to keep up with them easier than the Knights.

Most interested to see how your Duplicitous list goes! Looks tasty and fun as! Also if you got all spells off, double turn and then summon in another two units of Blue or unit of Pinks thats just awesome! I'm finding that Blues are the best bang for buck in terms of summons at the moment with the magic heavy lists. Also love seeing Chaos Sorc Lord on Manticore in any Tzeentch list! Spesh with Kairos!

Yeah, I've ran that exact list before in Duplicitous with 2x10 Chosen, Sorc Lord and Chaos Lord for fight-twice and, yeah Bridge which I think is almost required by comparison with how slow they are. I enjoyed it just because 10 Chosen can easily put out 20-30 damage with at least 10 of these being MW's and the other unit is there as backup and can take the +1 hit agenda or something.  The "theoretical" damage on Knights is obviously higher but.. the issue's are exactly what you've stated and if they don't wipe a unit in 1 go then the lances turn into noodles. I'll give them a shot with Lances and another with Swords and see how they do.. I can't directly swap them without sacrificing some other stuff but you've definitely made me rethink it. 


100% agree with Blues though.. I only ever save for Pinks if I feel I'm in a position to, but 10 Blues are usually there when I need them, if that makes sense. Kairos + Be'laor is just nuts on it's own for the ability to shut down 2 units. The Manticore gives a little more punch with Infusion since he'll probably be getting stuck into something weak to tie it up. Combine that with 2 Chaos Spawn a turn and Pinks\Blues and.. yeah, it has the potential to play objectives pretty well and keep units frozen in place. Like most things in this game though it can get really hurt by shooting heavy armies.. a big reason I like to take 6 Skyfires is because it forces my opponent to second guess giving me T1; they can outrange my spells, but those 6 Skyfires will more than likely be able to kill any hero\chaff unit they want if I go 1st which isn't something you can really do with Enlightened as well.
 

15 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Any and all feedback is appreciated / welcomed! Still tweaking it atm, but i'll mostly be sticking to the above and tweaking as needed.

Side note: Previous list has included x6 Flamers and 1 Exalted, hiding behind a line of Kairics and also coupled with the Fluxmaster, which instills a lot of fear as well, but it doesn't really cut the mustard too well I have found, albeit I could be playing it wrong.

Plenty of good points there altogether and I'm pretty inclined to agree... I think you always need at least 1 unit of 30 Kairics but I've liked 2x30, I do see plenty going for 30-20-10 like you have though.

A few things though; do you really feel like Aura is going to help that much with only the Pinks benefitting from it? It usually gives them another 2-3 damage but that's about it. I think if you kept the 6 Flamers and Enlightened it would be worth it, but not sure in this regard.. of course both options outside of Conflag without that -1 rend feel a bit worse anyway. I will say though, I do enjoy a LoC just because he can actually do quite a bit of damage with that Artifact; he consistently throws out 2-4d3 MW's everytime he shoots and has a nice spell\utility to boot.. but yeah, I don't think he's necessary.

Curious to hear how it goes for you.. I'm currently trying to get some games scheduled for tomorrow if all goes well.. just realized I haven't wrote a batrep since August so I gotta fix that 😅

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4 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

if they don't wipe a unit in 1 go then the lances turn into noodles.

LOL - I can imagine 10 of the darkest knights fighting with pool noodles!

6 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

Kairos + Be'laor is just nuts on it's own for the ability to shut down 2 units.

Totally agree, and I haven't had much of a chance to actually use this combo - but i'm painting my Kairos Bird up and on the hunt for a good Belakor kit bash so it'll happen one day! Also i agree with your comments re: giving you turn 1 and also the spawns coming in! Love the Kairos combo with Magister on Disc.

9 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I think if you kept the 6 Flamers and Enlightened it would be worth it, but not sure in this regard.. of course both options outside of Conflag without that -1 rend feel a bit worse anyway.

Couldn't agree more. The Aura on the flamers is well worth it because I shoot with the Exalted first into the Horde/dangerous units, then with flamers still getting the buff on the Exalted. The 2+ to hit is fantastic, but having no rend makes it a lot easier to save against. I def see your point though on whether or not taking the Aura is worth it... thing is though, given the Hero's I have it's really only viable to give the Fatemaster an Artefact which is the Spiteful Shield (giving the DD on a 6 to save) which is also nice I guess... and possibly worth it, but I also don't get him into too many combat situations if I'm honest, because I'm trying to leaverage him for his movement / summoning... But you're making me think @Gwendar and wanting to play more games lol.

Yeah I should have a game penciled in this week coming so I'll see how the list goes. Look forward to your batrep if you do one!

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5 minutes ago, RUNCMD said:

Giving you turn 1 and also the spawns coming in! Love the Kairos combo with Magister on Disc.

Couldn't agree more. The Aura on the flamers is well worth it because I shoot with the Exalted first into the Horde/dangerous units, then with flamers still getting the buff on the Exalted. The 2+ to hit is fantastic, but having no rend makes it a lot easier to save against. I def see your point though on whether or not taking the Aura is worth it... thing is though, given the Hero's I have it's really only viable to give the Fatemaster an Artefact which is the Spiteful Shield (giving the DD on a 6 to save) which is also nice I guess... and possibly worth it, but I also don't get him into too many combat situations if I'm honest, because I'm trying to leaverage him for his movement / summoning... But you're making me think @Gwendar and wanting to play more games lol.

And that in combination with Skyfires means you really gotta be careful of placement. I try to build lists with the idea that I don't care if you give me T1 or not, but that one really goes deep into that idea. I see a lot of people playing those spells wrong though and setting up the Spawn within 3" of the last slain model which can usually means it's dead that combat phase.. but since it just needs to be within 3" of the unit you can literally place it anywhere and keep them and potentially other units around it from moving or shooting at anything but it.

Well, you could always just give your Fatemaster the Paradoxical Shield for some shenanigans that I described previously.. you basically get him on a 2+ save all the time (barring rend obviously) which is nice since people will want to kill him to stop the RR's.. then you can just give Chainfire to whoever else.

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10 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

you could always just give your Fatemaster the Paradoxical Shield for some shenanigans

This was my other thought, and I'm trying that tonight at a 1500 point event, so will see if that one is worth it in the end.

 

11 minutes ago, Gwendar said:

I see a lot of people playing those spells wrong though and setting up the Spawn within 3" of the last slain model which can usually means it's dead that combat phase

It's all to do with wording right! a lot of people miss that and it can be a huge tactical advantage to tie up two or so units. The worst and most underated thing I think is tying up a huge unit, like 6 Enlightened, with something like two Gors! it's happened to me before and now my Enlightened are wasted stuck with two gors when they need to be killing something bigger and scarier!!! So a Spawn tagging some units is suuuuuuper helpful for sure!

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Prob i have a game in tts with a friend im 2 days.  My first tzeentch game!! Im Loving this book so mutch. I think there are many combos amd feel like its pretty competitive too!

Guys you speak many times about kairos belakor combo. What combo do you mean?:) i know you summon spawns with kairos spell. But why enemy cant retreat from them?

Edited by Tizianolol

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59 minutes ago, Tizianolol said:

Guys you speak many times about kairos belakor combo. What combo do you mean?:) i know you summon spawns with kairos spell. But why enemy cant retreat from them?

Hosts Duplicitous prevents units within 3" from retreating from any Hosts Duplicitous unit. So yeah, being able to summon 1-2 Chaos Spawn a turn just within 3" means they have to spend their shooting or combat phase trying to kill it, meaning they aren't shooting or charging at your other units. Just keep in mind you have to kill a model in order to summon it.. which Kairos can usually do with it being a flat 6 MW's to start, but the Magister on Disc is a bit more random with it being d3 MW's (and thus best used against 1-2 wound models to safely kill them and get the Chaos Spawn).

Be'lakor + Kairos is just really good at the shutdown game. Be'lakor's ability is a once per game thing that makes 1 unit unable to cast, move, charge or attack unless they roll a 5+ anytime they try to do any of those things. So if you think those 20 Hearthguard or 6 Stormfiends are going to move\charge\shoot at you when it's their turn, you can use that and hopefully shut them down completely for that turn.

Kairos works well in conjunction because he has a once per game ability to change a dice roll and it cannot be re-rolled or modified.. so usually that means if something rolls to charge and gets it, you could change a 6 to a 1 and potentially prevent it from charging. Combine the 2 of them and you have the ability to just say "no thanks" to 2 units doing anything to you for 1 turn.

Edited by Gwendar
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Had a 1500 point game last night against Gloomspite. Ran a watered down list with the Pyro/witchfyre coven that I posted above, most notably including the 30 block of Kairics, x 2 ten man units of Kairics, Fatemaster,  x1 unit of 6 Enlightened on disc, Tzaangor Shaman and Fluxmaster on disc. We played The Blades Edge, where whoever is taking 2nd turn after round 1, gets to burn and objective.

Had a lot of success with the big block of 30 doing some heavy wounds on units getting the re-rolls of hits in both shooting and also melee from fate-dude, which is great, 1 10 man unit of Kairics didn't even get touched which was seriously a huge benefit as they were doing some great shots here and there even without re-rolls. Enlightened did what they did and my opponent didnt realise they re-roll everything if something within 3inches fights first (I probs should have remembered to tell him tbh because he hadnt played Tzeentch before so that's a mental note to myself) but he didn't make that mistake again.

I got the win, only just, but I played very sloppy and burnt the wrong objectives (making hard decisions in friendly games is also quite challenging lol) and also made some mental notes about the list I ran which are:

- Pyrofane is great for the +1 to hit for the shooting coupled with the re-rolls from the Fatemaster. Couple with this for the inbuilt CP spend to re-roll wounds and you're doing a lot of Damage.

- Need to remember to do the extra mortal wounds to a unit if it suffers any wounds from shooting as part of the coven, I really didn't use this and always forget it.

- Using Kairics as a screen, the 10 man blob, to protect the Enlightened and also holding the enlightened back til maybe 2nd or 3rd round (at the latest 3rd round) is really doing me a world of good instead of flying them up the board Turn 1 and trying to wreck face UNLESS its just something suuuuper scary that will def wreck face. *Looks at OBR and their Harvesters/Multi arm guys*

- The high movement of stuff on discs that our Hero's can make is amazing for mid to late game objective snagging and dumping a blob of say 10 Blues, coupled with the agenda of everything counting as two models - def never under estimate this!

- For anything with Witchfyre/Pyrofane coven orientated you need to buy an extra Command point. Im pretty much sold on this. and Ill explain why later.

- In the list I took last night there was so much that I dindt use, like spiteful shield on my Fatemaster which gives him the Destiny Dice on saves of 6's. This is suuuuper important to do if youre taking a save of 12 wounds, which I did, and he died, and I didnt get any Destiny Dice.

- NEVER be afraid to use DD for spells to get your summoning up. Also let people have mystic shield. its really not that scary tbh and is cheap summoning points.

 

To my point of the CP. Taking a blob of kairics in 30 is great because of the extra Bravery you get putting them at 8 until they take some wounds, no problem. But honestly, you REALLY want that blob to stay around for as long as possible. If you play that unit right its going to be the work horse of the unit and the opponents i have played seem to focus most into it forgetting about the other 2 units of 10 which free's them up a bit. Even if you 2nd turn round 1 and you have an army up in your face, you'll be spending that CP on re-roll hits and then one on battleshock, unless you can DD it but then you'll still lose some anyway - again all down to what you lose/how much really. Which is what I found is annoying because if you burn both CPs turn 1, you're always on the back foot post Turn 2 for anything that you may need to auto run, auto Battleshock pass and various others. Which leads me to either A) buy the extra CP or (B) try out the guild of summoners coven.

Guild I like the look of a lot and the reason for that is because I can make the fatemaster my general, giving him the ability to roll a dice in my hero phase and then on a 4+ get the extra CP. Super handy if Ive just spent one for the Fatemaster to re-roll hits. Whilst I dont get the +1 to hits for shooting and re-roll wounds in the shooting phase at all for a CP spent, its honestly not toooo bad because they are hitting on 3s to wound and still re-rolling. The loss of the extra D3 mortals on a unit that takes any wound after they have been shot might also be key - BUT IM A DERP AND NEVER USE IT ANYWAY SO I WOULDNT KNOW :D

the real kicker is that the Fatemaster gets given the Artefact of the units wholly within 12 inches are immune to battleshock. THAT is worth it in my opinion for Kairics atm, even given the bigger blobs bravery and what not, they will still HUGELY benefit from it, also, put a unit of pinks in the front and then you have the screen you need to protek the unit. It works in my mind anyways ;)

The other real nice thing is that even if you dont buy the extra CP in this coven, you can still use one of the others your more free to use on the Enlightened IF youre playing in Chamon. This is the inbuilt CP ability and you add 1 to hit rolls for them in combat, coupled with the shaman's +1 they hit a lot more effectively now even without the re-rolls. quite nice tbh.

Then we go onto the summoning. Adding in another 2 cast or even 1 cast Wizzo, and then you get the scribbles on a balewind and you potentially have an LOC on the board. Im conflicted about this tbh. Im becoming a huge fan of Blue being on the board for objectives. BUT the LOC, if kept at a distance but within spell range, and behind a screen unit *Looks at that block of 10 kairics to soak up some wounds* is kinda survivable and also has some decent movement. Plus the extra two spells (which you wont benefit from straight away but can be clutch to do MWs because of his inbuilt spell AND the Spell you give him when he comes onto the board, can really do some damage. But you wont expect to do this until turn 2 or even 3 really, depending on how those spells go! Against Lumineth I dont see this being viable at all.

Chamon seems to be my favourite realm to play in atm. The extra save spell is great and quite easy for us to get, the extra +1 to hit in the combat phase is nothing to scoff at if you can afford the cost of the CP (hoping guild will help with that) and also every scenery piece is entangling which stops a lot of horde and faster armies being up in our face and alot of the time I'm finding lists that im running dont need to be riiiiight up in the face of the opponent unless its enlightened and then you can DD them because they cant be modified! So im about it.

Anyways - this is more a mind dump really, hope it helps peeps. Still sorting out artefacts that I think are best but im really keen to try the Guild coven with my list im running atm and will def try and post results if I have a game with it and can remember everything of the game :)

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@RUNCMD Nice to hear it worked out.. and solid points all around. I've found one of the biggest issues with Pyrofane is just how CP heavy it is. When I play Duplicitous or Arcanum, I can pretty easily just save them up and they really only get used for the odd at the double, inspiring presence or whatever special ability that coven has. With Pyrofane, I really want to RR wounds, but when you're already spending a CP for the Fatemaster and then potentially another as you've said it can really bleed you dry fast.

I've given Summoners a look at instead of Duplicitous in my 5-6 wizard lists.. but overall I just don't know how worth it it ends up being. I can stay in HD and then get free RR's to all daemon wizards (which frees up the Scribes to use spells on a 2+ that isn't just Boon of Tzeentch) and make everything tarpit indefinitely... or I can get 1, maybe 2 Big Birds per game.. and even then it can't do anything really until the subsequent turn other than shoot or charge. I'm interested to see how it works with a pseudo Pyrofane setup. There was actually a Summoners list that took a small 10 person tournament going 5-0 a couple weeks ago.. so it can definitely work. I think if you plan to run it, then you most certainly need to be bringing at least 5-6 Hero wizards and try to achieve 10-12 casts per turn so you can get 2 LoC's out by T2\3.

I assume you already know of it, but you may wanna look at https://aosreminders.com/ for any memory issues with rules... or you can be like me and use it, but never look at it while you play 😅

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