AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

[Baron Wastelands]

17 hours ago, Mayple said:

Absolutely. Using two weapons will also give you (for some reason) re-roll to hit when firing your guns (as it gives re-roll to hits in general, not only when attacking in close-combat) - so that will add up big time when used on several tyrants, and really help the ranged punch  

This is precisely what happens when they change something in the matrix. 

 

Yes, double clubs will outdamage other builds unless you take traits and artifacts. The average damage against 4+ save is:

double clubs with brawlerguts 5.9 wounds; double club with giant breaker 7.1 wounds (MONSTERS ONLY); double club with any other big name 4.7 wounds.

massive club with brawlerguts 5.5 wounds; massive club with giant breaker 5.9 wounds (MONSTERS ONLYJ; massive club with any other big name 4.2 wounds. 

gutgouger with brawlerguts 5.8 wounds; gutgouger with giant breaker 5.5 wounds (MONSTERS ONLY); gutgouger with any other big name 4.1 wounds.

The order is still the same for 3+, 5+ and 6+ saves in each case.

In addition, while I’m very cheerful about this talk of multiple tyrants, I feel compelled to point out that the msu 3xironguts will generally do more damage that any of the tyrants without traits/artifacts, and have more wounds. The only tyrant build (without traits and artifacts) that pulls ahead very slightly on damage is double-clubs with giantbreaker (and therefore only against monsters). 3 Ironguts do 6.7 wounds on average against 4+ save.

[sorokyl]

29 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

 

In addition, while I’m very cheerful about this talk of multiple tyrants, I feel compelled to point out that the msu 3xironguts will generally do more damage that any of the tyrants without traits/artifacts, and have more wounds. The only tyrant build (without traits and artifacts) that pulls ahead very slightly on damage is double-clubs with giantbreaker (and therefore only against monsters). 3 Ironguts do 6.7 wounds on average against 4+ save.

3

Great point! I am not sure why I didn't think about this. I may still bust out the 2nd tyrant ocasionally just to give the model some love. 

[Kramer]

27 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

This is precisely what happens when they change something in the matrix. 

 

Yes, double clubs will outdamage other builds unless you take traits and artifacts. The average damage against 4+ save is:

double clubs with brawlerguts 5.9 wounds; double club with giant breaker 7.1 wounds (MONSTERS ONLY); double club with any other big name 4.7 wounds.

massive club with brawlerguts 5.5 wounds; massive club with giant breaker 5.9 wounds (MONSTERS ONLYJ; massive club with any other big name 4.2 wounds. 

gutgouger with brawlerguts 5.8 wounds; gutgouger with giant breaker 5.5 wounds (MONSTERS ONLY); gutgouger with any other big name 4.1 wounds.

The order is still the same for 3+, 5+ and 6+ saves in each case.

In addition, while I’m very cheerful about this talk of multiple tyrants, I feel compelled to point out that the msu 3xironguts will generally do more damage that any of the tyrants without traits/artifacts, and have more wounds. The only tyrant build (without traits and artifacts) that pulls ahead very slightly on damage is double-clubs with giantbreaker (and therefore only against monsters). 3 Ironguts do 6.7 wounds on average against 4+ save.

Nice write up, thanks

ill add for consideration on a tyrant vs. Iron guts. Different footprint, can be good and bad. Iron guts do diminish after 4 wounds. And of course the hero keyword.

i don’t know, I like to try something different. I have the man eaters that are currently gathering dust but will be perfect as different tyrants. 

Maybe: 

3x tyrant 480

1x butcher 140

12 bulls 400

6 guts       360

20 gnoblars 100

1480 & traits etc to be decided. 

[Baron Wastelands]

7 minutes ago, sorokyl said:

Great point! I am not sure why I didn't think about this. I may still bust out the 2nd tyrant ocasionally just to give the model some love. 

I should say I do take multiple tyrants 😁 On the plus side, they have a smaller footprint, are automatically immune to battleshock, and having a back up bully is useful. So am just trying to inform the debate, really ☺️ Damage output doesn’t take into account range either, of course - a tyrant with 2 or 3” range can stand behind/ in the middle of other units and hit with impunity, which is also useful.

I do think 5 might be too many, however, based on the analysis ...

*edit* @Kramer sorry, posting at the same time! Good point that ironguts diminish whereas a tyrant keeps swinging, too.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Baron Wastelands

[PlasticCraic]

28 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

In addition, while I’m very cheerful about this talk of multiple tyrants, I feel compelled to point out that the msu 3xironguts will generally do more damage that any of the tyrants without traits/artifacts, and have more wounds. 

Spoilsport 😝

A couple of counterpoints:

- You have a window of 4 wounds+ where you have lost an Irongut, but you haven't lost any output from the Tyrant until he is in his grave 

- He has a better save so it will take 16 damage to kill him on average, i.e. the same as the Ironguts

- This gets even better with the 3+ save Big Name (or even the extra wound)

- The extra speed Big Name can give you something you don't have too

- You cannot lose him to Battleshock (rare as it is on MSU Ironguts)

- Access to rend -2 is rare and precious.  Against armies like Sylvaneth and Seraphon it can be priceless

- He is 20 points cheaper

So although you are right, and Ironguts is probably the smart choice, I don't think you can go as far as saying they are strictly better.

But yes they are probably taken more often for a reason!

[PlasticCraic]

Haha triple jinx, overlapping comments!

[Baron Wastelands]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Spoilsport 😝

A couple of counterpoints:

- You have a window of 4 wounds+ where you have lost an Irongut, but you haven't lost any output from the Tyrant until he is in his grave 

- He has a better save so it will take 16 damage to kill him on average, i.e. the same as the Ironguts

- This gets even better with the 3+ save Big Name (or even the extra wound)

- The extra speed Big Name can give you something you don't have too

- You cannot lose him to Battleshock (rare as it is on MSU Ironguts)

- Access to rend -2 is rare and precious.  Against armies like Sylvaneth and Seraphon it can be priceless

- He is 20 points cheaper

So although you are right, and Ironguts is probably the smart choice, I don't think you can go as far as saying they are strictly better.

But yes they are probably taken more often for a reason!

Save is the same?

the extra big names give you more utility, of course, but then you don’t get to use the damage increases and they fall further behind.

not saying ironguts are better, necessarily, just that most of the time will do more damage. 😁

[Kramer]

1 minute ago, PlasticCraic said:

Haha triple jinx, overlapping comments!

Haha the thread has never been as active.  

 

2 minutes ago, PlasticCraic said:

 

- He has a better save so it will take 16 damage to kill him on average, i.e. the same as the Ironguts

 

- Access to rend -2 is rare and precious.  Against armies like Sylvaneth and Seraphon it can be priceless

At the first point. They both have four up right? Unless he’s a Fateseeker for three up which was your next point. 

Do very much agree with the -2 rend. I play my ogors mostly against dispossessed and it makes such a difference. 

[PlasticCraic]

2 minutes ago, Baron Wastelands said:

Save is the same?

 

1 minute ago, Kramer said:

At the first point. They both have four up right? Unless he’s a Fateseeker for three up which was your next point. 

You guys are both right, my mistake.  You do need Fateseeker to put him on a better save.

I think it's probably fair to say that MSU Ironguts are a smarter option overall, but multiple Tyrants is fun and has enough utility that it's not strictly worse.

I've got 5 spare Brutes gathering dust, I'm totally gonna do a head swap and run a 6 Tyrants list!  Maybe run them all with Gutgougers and hope for a couple of Brawlerguts 

[Mayple]

There's also "look out sir" giving shooting -1 to hit against a tyrant, where it does not receive penalties versus Ironguts, since we're discussing durability.

[Mutter]

After reading all these posts, I now have the craving to create a '5 Ronin' type army with five tyrants ...

[amysrevenge]

Playing a 1500 game against a newer player tonight, he's got Archaon and some Khorne fodder.  So tempting to max on Tyrants, but no, I'll do a normal list.  You actually get a nice simple mix at 1500, Tyrant + Butcher + 6 Guts + 9 Belchers + 12 Ogors.  Might get more mileage out of 2x3 Guts, but I'm going with 1x6 (I also don't need to play games with banners and bellowers that way, I think I only have 1 Gut bellower painted right now).

[sorokyl]

2 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

 I think I only have 1 Gut bellower painted right now).

As someone who only has second hand ogor models, what technically is a gut bellower? The normal bellower arm and a 1 handed weapon?  What differentiates it from a ogor bellower, a helmet?   I just pick a model with his mouth open to call the bellower. 

[amysrevenge]

I only have Mantic ogre models so it's different.  Converted with the GW Bellower head and arm.

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, sorokyl said:

As someone who only has second hand ogor models, what technically is a gut bellower? The normal bellower arm and a 1 handed weapon?  What differentiates it from a ogor bellower, a helmet?   I just pick a model with his mouth open to call the bellower. 

The head is The only difference as far as I remember without checking the models itself. 

 

[amysrevenge]

11 hours ago, amysrevenge said:

Playing a 1500 game against a newer player tonight, he's got Archaon and some Khorne fodder.  So tempting to max on Tyrants, but no, I'll do a normal list.  You actually get a nice simple mix at 1500, Tyrant + Butcher + 6 Guts + 9 Belchers + 12 Ogors.  Might get more mileage out of 2x3 Guts, but I'm going with 1x6 (I also don't need to play games with banners and bellowers that way, I think I only have 1 Gut bellower painted right now).

Bad news and good news.

Bad: I forgot that I pulled 1000 points out of my Ogor battlefoam. Had to run a second string list: Tyrant, 2x Butcher, 6x Ogor, 6x Belcher, 6x Guts, Giant.

Good: Guts hit Archaon pretty hard before he took them down. Then Archie charged and killed the Giant, who then fell on him and took his last wound. Made my day. Heck, made my week.

[James S]

Added my guide to the Honestwargamer site. Had to change the name since someone took my title. Lol. Let me know if it reads ok. Thanks guys!

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/bulls-on-parade/

[James S]

Evening all! Had an awesome game tonight. Tried out my 5 Tyrant list against Destruction Monster Mash! Here's some pics and my video battlereport. As always, critique, questions, and criticisms are always welcome!

 

 

[sorokyl]

that destruction list you played looks really neat!

Ok, playing 2k Gutbusters for the first time this weekend, here's my list:

Allegiance: Gutbusters - Mortal Realm: Ghyran
LEADERS
Butcher (140) - Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
Tyrant (160) - Pair of Clubs, Bashers or Slicers
Butcher (140) - Pair of Stump Blades and Great Cauldron
Tyrant (160) - General - Command Trait : Wild Fury - Great Gutgouger - Artefact : Ghyrstrike
UNITS
12 x Ogors (400) - Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
40 x Grots (200)
20 x Grots (100)
3 x Ironguts (180)
3 x Ironguts (180)
BEHEMOTHS
Thundertusk Beastriders (340) - Beastclaw Raiders Battleline - Allies
TOTAL: 2000/2000

Couple of notes:
I am playing 1v2 against LoN Death/FEC.  I suspect 2 min size units of ghouls, and 2 units of skeletons. Either Nagash or Arkhan+VLoZD and then a FEC big boy
I am doing 40 grots instead of 3x20 because I just want to get a feel for the difference in unit size, having a 20 and a 40 on the board should help
Bringing a Thundertusk to try and help bring down one of the big boys. I'm not going to be able to get any casting done until Arkhan or Nagash is dead.  I figure I can shoot something for 6 and then dive into with a tryant and 3 guts, and hopefully bring it down in 1 turn. 

Any criticisms on my list? I have pretty much any BCR/Gutbuster unit available, and some other Destruction stuff (Hag, Giant, orcs, goblins, etc). 
I do not have more bulls painted. Going to work on that later on. for 2x12 lists... 
Are butchers still worth it assuming they are likely casting against Arkhan or Nagash for the first 2 turns at least

Edited November 27, 2018 by sorokyl

[James S]

8 hours ago, sorokyl said:

Are butchers still worth it assuming they are likely casting against Arkhan or Nagash for the first 2 turns at least

I used to run 3. After playing games against Nagash, Arkan, and Lords of Change, I dropped down to two. Remember we take them for the cauldron roll. The magic is just a bonus and nothing to be relied on. Until we get a way to increase our casting, that's just the way it is.

[James S]

Hey all! Been quiet on the Gutbuster front. Big shout out to Mick at the Irish GT for placing 1st at the tournament. Yep! Ogors took home the gold.

Had a huge game day at the house yesterday. Had some club mates doing Twitch streaming, two games worth. Can check out Sons of Slambo.

Also had a second table going. Got to fight Gnarlroot Sylvaneth. Guy I played just finished 2nd or 3rd with this list at a 20 player one day event. Used my tournament list. Here’s some pics from deployment and first comment with be the link to the video battle report.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6WJ8i7nz2X0

Edited December 3, 2018 by James S

[PlasticCraic]

3 hours ago, James S said:

Hey all! Been quiet on the Gutbuster front. Big shout out to Mick at the Irish GT for placing 1st at the tournament. Yep! Ogors took home the gold.

Yeah how cool is that! Good on him.  I noticed he used 2x3 Ironguts too (like you do).  And only 1 Butcher. 

Whereas I run multiple Butchers, a big unit of Ironguts, and moan when I don't get the +1 to hit.  That's why he's the champ!

He has written an excellent write up on the Honest Wargamer, and I would encourage everyone to check it out:

https://thehonestwargamer.com/aos-list-rundowns/gutbusters-bustin-guts/

[Pitloze]

I kinda want to expand my BCR into mixed Ogor. I have 3 SCB worth of BCR. What would be a decent 2k list using BCR and Gutbuster units?

[sorokyl]

1 hour ago, Pitloze said:

I kinda want to expand my BCR into mixed Ogor. I have 3 SCB worth of BCR. What would be a decent 2k list using BCR and Gutbuster units?

2 tricky parts here for truly mixed Ogor: 

1. If you don't take Gutbusters allegiance, only Ogors are battleline. Ogors work best in Large groups, so you'll probably have at least 1 unit of 3 as a tax. 
2. Gutbusters only have 1 unique command ability, and all of the BCR abilities only affect BCR units. 

Now, You can always ally one into the other:

BCR -  would make great use of grots, because one of their challenges is they need bodies.  A block of 12 Ogors is also a perfect 40 points.  A butcher would give them a spell, and they also benefit from the cauldron buffs.  3 great options for BCR allies. 
Gutbusters - I guess mournfang could add some speed,  but what gutbusters really need help with is shooting and magic.  A thundertusk  can be useful but in general that's seen as an overpriced unit I think. Also, new players hate getting snowballed, and experienced players can neuter it pretty easily, so it's a risky pick.   BCR doesn't provide magic.  I guess mournfang could add some speed, or a Thundertusk adds some range. 

If you want to experiement, a low risk one would be 2 boxes of Ogors, that's pretty cheap, gives you a block of 12 for 400 points (max allies).  Gnoblar grots are expensive, out of stock, and not great models, though I think they would probably be a slightly better ally.    A Butcher with Cauldron is also a good next pick up (if you can find the other butcher for much cheaper, make your own cauldron)

[Pitloze]

3 hours ago, sorokyl said:

2 tricky parts here for truly mixed Ogor: 

1. If you don't take Gutbusters allegiance, only Ogors are battleline. Ogors work best in Large groups, so you'll probably have at least 1 unit of 3 as a tax. 
2. Gutbusters only have 1 unique command ability, and all of the BCR abilities only affect BCR units. 

Now, You can always ally one into the other:

BCR -  would make great use of grots, because one of their challenges is they need bodies.  A block of 12 Ogors is also a perfect 40 points.  A butcher would give them a spell, and they also benefit from the cauldron buffs.  3 great options for BCR allies. 
Gutbusters - I guess mournfang could add some speed,  but what gutbusters really need help with is shooting and magic.  A thundertusk  can be useful but in general that's seen as an overpriced unit I think. Also, new players hate getting snowballed, and experienced players can neuter it pretty easily, so it's a risky pick.   BCR doesn't provide magic.  I guess mournfang could add some speed, or a Thundertusk adds some range. 

If you want to experiement, a low risk one would be 2 boxes of Ogors, that's pretty cheap, gives you a block of 12 for 400 points (max allies).  Gnoblar grots are expensive, out of stock, and not great models, though I think they would probably be a slightly better ally.    A Butcher with Cauldron is also a good next pick up (if you can find the other butcher for much cheaper, make your own cauldron)

Yeah I don't like the grots models at all. But I can see them being strong on the table top. I also don't see a way to paint them up quickly since they have some unique details here and there.

Using your suggestion of buying two boxes I came up with this list:

Allegiance: Beastclaw Raiders

Leaders
Huskard on Stonehorn (340)
- Blood Vulture
Icebrow Hunter (140)

Battleline
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
4 x Mournfang Pack (320)
- Gargant Hackers
Stonehorn Beastriders (320)
- Option: Blood Vulture

Units
12 x Ogors (400)
- Pairs of Ogor Clubs or Blades
- Allies

Battalions
Jorlbad (160)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 400 / 400
Wounds: 127

It really hurts not being able to add the butcher. But if i go destruction I would have to split up the Ogor unit. Maybe the icebrow hunter can be protected inside the unit of 12 Ogors. I dunno.