AoS 2 - Gutbusters Discussion

[Chris Tomlin]

Morning all,

Here is the new thread for discussing Gutbusters. Whilst traditionally we haven't seen that much chat about them on here, with the imminent release of AoS 2 (and a lot of the info already being out there), I feel that we may see a bit of a resurgence for these big lads. 

Moving forward, this will be the main thread to chat about and discuss Gutbusters in the new edition. I still wholly encourage people to keep their own threads/army blogs within this sub forum and I also think those are a great place to share some photos as I know not everyone frequents the Painting & Modelling section (like me!). But this thread is purely for discussion around the faction, things such as (but not limited to) tactics and list building etc. You all know the drill, we've been doing it on this forum since inception!

I'm not actually sure that we ever had a dedicated thread for Gutbusters previously, so it's time to make history! Please note that it is completely acceptable to include the likes of Firebellies and Maneaters in these discussions. Still madness to me these are separate. That said, I haven't actually seen the GH2018 yet, so perhaps they've been brought back into the general Ogor fold.

Really excited to see what we can come up with as a community and I look forward to reading all your ideas and thoughts.

Chris

[peasant]

fantastic! do you feel gutbusters will experience  a comeback? Im waiting to.know about the points change in gh18

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

Are ogors worth having a solo army or are they best as an allied detatchment eg bulls for soaking up wounds and doing good damage in melee or leadbelchers for rage? Is having all ogors then  a bit of magic from grots viable? I love destruction and have a huge orcs and goblins and ogor army but I've been mainly using moonclan grots as they seem the most competitive. Are ogors competitive? Can they compete with death and stormcast etc?

(Btw the ogors im referring to are bulls (don't know what they've been renamed to), leadbelchers, ironguts, a trapper model and a tyrant.)

Any help is appreciated plus I think that this will start good conversations in this thread.

[amysrevenge]

I am over the moon that Maneaters are dropping to 200, so that you can get 6 as allies at 2000 Matched Play.  It doesn't seem like much, but straying from the universal Ogor statline of 4+/3+ only as far as 3+/3+ makes such a difference.

[amysrevenge]

4 hours ago, fanatical-mushroom-addict said:

Are ogors worth having a solo army or are they best as an allied detatchment eg bulls for soaking up wounds and doing good damage in melee or leadbelchers for rage? Is having all ogors then  a bit of magic from grots viable? I love destruction and have a huge orcs and goblins and ogor army but I've been mainly using moonclan grots as they seem the most competitive. Are ogors competitive? Can they compete with death and stormcast etc?

(Btw the ogors im referring to are bulls (don't know what they've been renamed to), leadbelchers, ironguts, a trapper model and a tyrant.)

Any help is appreciated plus I think that this will start good conversations in this thread.

I think losing Mystic Shield as  +1 to save hurts Ogors (bulls) more than a lot of other units.  I've been on the good side twice now of a squad of Ogors with ironfists in cover with (old) Mystic Shield as they defend against a horde of wimps (dryads and moonclan grots).  Both times they ended up bouncing far more mortal wounds back than they took in wounds themselves (save on 3+, bouncing mortals on 4+).  Losing the additional save bonus (and with the possibility of the ability changing from "6 or more" to "unmodified 6") really hurts.

As far as competitiveness goes, it's not pretty really in AoS1.  I never did manage a win against an experienced tournament player playing a practiced list (I played a Changehost and it was... one-sided).  I'm hoping that somehow the shakeup of the game will make them at least a little more competitive, but I'm not super optimistic about it.

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

That’s a grim picture but thank you for your honesty. I just hope they get a major buff or something in the new edition. I’ll keep the save thing in mind when fielding them... if I ever play something other than moonclan or skink hordes

[StoneMonk]

Not running pure Gutbusters to start, but wanting to use it as the core.
Starting with 2 Butchers but might go to 3 or 4 - a big Arcane Mess Hall of ogor wizards - healing on cast or unbind, healing other units, buffing units, and casting endless spells on top of that, unbinding like a boss, and like foot of gork you want voracious maw to work!. Just wish there was some way to buff their magic.
2 Tyrants seem fun - one to take on heroes the other to take on hordes...

9 Ironguts in a single pack, bullied by the tyrant

2x 3 Ogor ("bulls") msu units (chaff chaff chaff chaff) and 20 moonclan grots with bows for battleline shooting.

I need to branch out for some variety and don't have enough pure gutbuster converted up to do 2k.

Hoping to add a gitmob doomdiver for some artillary. Also throwing in a Huskard on Thundertusk for some more shooting...also getting a durable monster in there.

Any suggestions? throw me some shade for doing mixed?

 

Edited June 21, 2018 by StoneMonk

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

Leadbelchers leadbelchers leadbelchers! They are fantastic models which shoot well from mid range and they can sit behind the bulls and iron guts and fire into whatever you need for as many turns as you need. Durable and effective. I’d go with them as soon as you can as they are just wonderful and thematic. Also maybe going for a big blob of moonclan grots or something for chaff instead of ogors may be cheaper idk and they’re definitely worse in combat and will get shredded by battleshock but they will look cool and can actually do a lot of damage with 40+ grots and possibly some buffs. I’d go moonclan for Battleline and chaff and they’re magic is cheap, then have leadbelchers tyrants and iron guts for elite and the ‘killy’ parts of the list. I’ve never used a butcher and don’t know what they’re like but having moonclan shamans never hurts (if u can fit it in idk how allies works rlly I just do whole faction lists)

[amysrevenge]

1 minute ago, fanatical-mushroom-addict said:

Leadbelchers leadbelchers leadbelchers! They are fantastic models which shoot well from mid range and they can sit behind the bulls and iron guts and fire into whatever you need for as many turns as you need. Durable and effective. I’d go with them as soon as you can as they are just wonderful and thematic. 

They also have rend -1 in close combat, which even normal ogors do not.  I am continually surprised every time they get stuck in...

[Mohojoe]

Horrible truth is gutbusters are possibly one of the lowest tier competitive army these days. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t play them but compared to the new shinies it’s a handicap. That being said we can still run some aggressive lists and hopefully the new spells might even the playing field slightly. 

As already said, bulls with iron fists are a must. I had great fun running units of 12. 

Leadbelchers never worked for me, though I tried to run them most often as MSU units. The standing still rule didn’t do a huge amount for me, though that could be due to my own poor placement. 

One of our main combos is a huge unit of gnoblars and use Bully Of The Firs Degree from our tyrant on them, to ensure they aren’t wiped by battle shock. 

Battle shock is one of our worst enemies. Every time you lose a model it’s a large chunk of your points. 

Thunder tusks for reliable character sniping. 6 mortal wounds on a 2+ is the best thing we have going for us and it’s from an ally haha. 

I like using gargants with my hordes as they tend to draw fire but can also do a bit of damage if they make the fight. This could just be because I love the models though. 

Really keen to see what new combinations people find with the new version. May your hunger be sated and your bellies grow vast! 

[PlasticCraic]

Great post @Mohojoe 

The warscrolls are mostly pretty decent, the problem is that's basically all you get.  I really don't see why they couldn't have been given some Allegiance Abilities last year, let alone this year.  But it is what it is.

That absence of Allegiance Abilities is probably the biggest thing taking the shine off 2.0 for me personally (along with Bonesplitterz not being properly retooled for combat).  Other gripes are that the coolest model in the range (Ironblaster) with the coolest weapon profile name in AOS (The Cannon of the Sky Titans) is still hot garbage.  1 shot hitting on 4s for 120 points is still terrible, and it now has lost its only access to +1 to hit (Damned) and importantly, cannot shoot at all if locked in combat (minimum range is 6").

We have no summoning which at face value means we will probably be facing armies who were already significantly better than us, who now have 200 points of extra stuff.

We also have no Batallions whatsoever (they took away the points for our only one), so you will virtually never have choice over who goes first, and no way to access those Command Points without handicapping ourselves points.  Generally we lack rend.

On the plus side...They can be surprisingly anti-meta, in that the strengths they do have are not things that people usually tool up to deal with.  A lot of people will think about how they deal with expensive wounds behind unbreakable armour saves, and how they will clear off hordes.  We are generally neither (with the exception of our Grots).  If Endless Spells become a thing for example, you will laugh in the face of multiple D3 (or even D6) mortal wounds.  They can whack 6 mortals into a unit and kill 1 whole Ogor, and Battleshock isn't going to help them much there.  Because we have terrible armour saves, our wounds are generally fairly cheap, so opponents get pretty poor value out of mortal wounds.

We are also very modular in that we do not depend on a single trick or synergy, so you cannot bring down the whole house of cards by sniping out a key hero.  Losing your Tyrant (if you run one) does hurt (especially if you have been using his Command Ability), butreactive Battleshock could help us in that scenario.

60x Grots at 270 points is quite the bargain.  Butchers are amazing, if very dicey.  It's all about those Great Maw war stories.  12x Ogors look amazing on the table.  Ironguts could be more viable at 180 points.

I'm also excited about allying in multiple Fungoid Cave Shamans and having some fun with Endless Spells.  They are a dirt cheap wizard with access to 2 rerollable casts each in those crucial early phases.  Investing in a Portal means you can safely cast from a corner of the board out of unbinding range, so Nagash and Arkhan can just stare at them impotently with their sexy +3 to unbind.  This can overcome our lack of long range sniping and rend, while bypassing Look Out Sir.  Could be a really useful tool.

Overall Gutbusters are not in a great place competitively, and the 2.0 changes look like a very mixed bag.  No Allegiance Abilities, no free summoning and only very modest points tweaks. 

So as much as I love these guys, I couldn't in clear conscience recommend someone to buy into the army right now for a few reasons.  Sustained and consistent lack of support makes me nervous.  In fact they have been proactively unsupported, being frozen out of Stoneklaw's Gutstompas for example, and having their only Batallion removed from Matched Play.  Leaving Maneaters and Firebellies in their own micro factions is straight up bizarre.  And the fact that GW still sell them on squares 3 years down the track means there is a significant extra tax there.

But if you have a collection lying around, I would certainly encourage anyone to take them out for a spin.  They are still one of the coolest armies around, look absolutely baller on the table and can give people a real shock sometimes.  

Edited June 22, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[Mohojoe]

It baffles me that they have been ignored when they are so popular, and compared to a lot of the armies, have a pretty wide model range! 

To most players starting the game, elite armies are very attractive. Quick to paint and with a fairly cheap entry price they are the perfect way to get into the game! 

At this point I’m almost ready for them to be swallowed up by BCR just to have them survive! 

On a slight side note, is it just worth playing mixed Destruction and using the units for their strengths? And with the new artefacts has any one found any cool combos yet? 

In case you can’t tell I’m desperate for someone to throw us a bone! I don’t mind being the underdog competitively but I would like to at least be relevant! 

[PlasticCraic]

For anyone intersted, Michael from Doom and Darkness has started up a campaign in the Gutbusters AOS Facebook group for Maneaters and Firebellies to be given the Gutbusters keyword in the next FAQ.  It wouldn't matter that they are separate factions in the GH18 - if they get the keyword, you can throw them in without eating up your allies slots (similar to Marks of Chaos in STD).

They would sell so many!  They must be the most beloved Finecast models (not the most hotly contested accolade, I know!).  

Doom has posted up a very positive and constructive message that he is asking people to copy and paste on all social media channels, just to try and get the message to GW that these are still a very popular faction and we want to buy more.  Like @Mohojoe points out, they are still popular: It's actually incredible how many people still love these guys - with just a small amount of support, they could blow up. 

And it should be pretty low hanging fruit, since they already have a decent range of models, with all the Battleline and artillery already in plastic.  Go on GW, throw us a little bone!

Edited June 22, 2018 by PlasticCraic

[Tanka]

I think PlasticCraic covers it perfectly. It would not take much to give those passionate gutbusters players a few new toys to play with going in to 2.0

Battalions, allegiance abilities and some shared key words among the minor factions (maneaters and firebellies) would make a huge difference.

Facehammer did declare that the realm specific magic items are legit for matched play, perhaps there will besomething there that may help our butchers or tyrants be a little more flexible.

[amysrevenge]

Good news bad news from the gaming table last night gang.

Good news:  I handily won a game (Starstrike battleplan, 2000 pts) last night with the ol' Buttgusters

Bad news: It was against Tomb Kings #NotARealArmy

[Mohojoe]

29 minutes ago, amysrevenge said:

Good news bad news from the gaming table last night gang.

Good news:  I handily won a game (Starstrike battleplan, 2000 pts) last night with the ol' Buttgusters

Bad news: It was against Tomb Kings #NotARealArmy

What were you running? 

[amysrevenge]

Usual garbage (was actually 2020 but my opponent also went slightly over 2000)

Tyrant/Butcher/Butcher

12 Ogors, 6 Ironguts, 9 Leadbelchers, 3 Maneaters

Ironblaster

I was able to deploy well, putting ironfist Ogors up against rend-less Skeletons (Destruction move got me into some nice defensible terrain for cover woot), and Ironguts up against Ushabti where I could swing first.  Maneaters tanked the snakes surprisingly well, and Ironblaster actually tanked the Sphinx for a while (ended a combat phase on 1W remaining which held it up for a whole next turn).  Leadbelchers did marvelously against chariots.

[James S]

Hey guys! Long time Ogor player. Definitely stepping my game up for tournament play in 2.0 with my Gutbusters.

Went 0-9 this last year at tournaments with my fat dudes, but the list was very suboptimal. Getting a lot more games in last couple months and preparing to step my game up. Don't have a choice. A lot more decisions to make and that never boades well for me.

Anyhow, not sure if I should start my own topic on my travels and games or just post here. Let me know!

My test list right now for 2.0 is:

Tyrant

Butcher x3

Ogors x12 w/ double hand weapons, both banners

Ogors x12 w/ double hand weapons, both banners

Leadbelchers x6

Grots x60

50pts for command point

20pts for Shackles Endless Spell

 

[amysrevenge]

I had a thing all typed out talking about ironfists, but losing Mystic Shield REALLY hurts ironfists.  As you were with your double weapons.

[fanatical-mushroom-addict]

I hate the new mystic shield it removes a load of combos and hurts destruction a lot in particular. I miss having 60 3+ save moonclan grots at range with as many fanatics as I can stuff in there.

[Furious]

I've been out of AoS for about 10 months now, and am getting back into with a new army. Gutbusters 1k is my first goal, with eventual BCR allies.

I've run Ogor bulls alongside my greenskinz (sidenote - my Ogors will ALL be greenskins, thanks to Nob heads) and they've always done really well as battleline. For sure they're underestimated.

I go double hw, though - why is the iron fist suggested as better? If your opponent has rend - and most units seem to these days - it's fairly useless.

I don't know much about the new edition, but I'm looking forward to seeing what, if anything, is new for these guys.

[Mincemeat]

Always was a fan of the double hand weapons one of the only to hit buffs we could get post ghb2017. Vindication! 

However the lack of Allegiance abilities for  a second year running has me even more concerned, I just can't fathom why GW seem to have no interest in this army whatsoever. It would have taken the best part of an hour to copy the charge rules from the wartribe battalion and use them as our allegiance abilities, which is fluffy and fairly balanced. 

I feel for our diminutive grot brethren as well in this. 

[Warboss Gorbolg]

The Gutbuster model line is full of really characterful plastics and has a decent variety of units. 100% confident Gutbusters are in GW's long term plans as I literally can't imagine any reason why they wouldn't. Good existing plastics that seem relatively popular. They've also made multiple appearances in the Realm Gate War novels. Hang in there fatty lovers! I have faith that Greenskinz will have their day eventually as well.

[Moonlightwolf]

I feel like some of the more subtle changes aren't really going to be appreciated yet. look out sir + the ability to regenerate makes them one of the more durable wizards in the game, combine that with way more spells to cast and I think they might really come into their own.

[Warboss Gorbolg]

On 6/21/2018 at 9:43 AM, amysrevenge said:

I am over the moon that Maneaters are dropping to 200, so that you can get 6 as allies at 2000 Matched Play.  It doesn't seem like much, but straying from the universal Ogor statline of 4+/3+ only as far as 3+/3+ makes such a difference.

Being able to fit 3 into 1k Destruction lists has me quite excited as well. I collected all the metal ones once they started moving to finecast. This has me pretty excited to finally assemble them. Think I'll start running the pirate, paymaster and empire ones.