AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Warmill]

7 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Just not having their special weapons hit on 4+ would have been pretty big, suddenly you've got a free WC buff on 1/3rd of your attacks...

The few games I tried brutes I ended up taking the boss and gore choppas off first as I just couldn't roll consistent hits versus the 2 choppa boys! 🤣

[Malakree]

2 hours ago, Warmill said:

The few games I tried brutes I ended up taking the boss and gore choppas off first as I just couldn't roll consistent hits versus the 2 choppa boys! 🤣

CP to give +1 to hit (from Megaboss) CP to RR1's to hit (Generic CA).

That's how you get them to be solid.

[Warmill]

5 hours ago, Malakree said:

CP to give +1 to hit (from Megaboss) CP to RR1's to hit (Generic CA).

That's how you get them to be solid.

I can think of many other things to spend 2 cps on than brutes!

[Malakree]

7 hours ago, Warmill said:

I can think of many other things to spend 2 cps on than brutes!

I don't disagree, if you're running a unit of 10 though...

[TALegion]

That situation (+1 to hit and rerolls 1's to hit) is pretty much the only time I've been thankful that I brought 10 brutes over 15 ardboyz. The brutes + Ironsunz's countercharge basically saved me in a game vs. 4 bloodthirtsters. 2 CP is a lot to spend on the buffs, but it's only 1 if you're hitting the right things. Easier said than done, though, for the obvious reasons that they're not as mobile as ardboyz.

Edited December 6, 2019 by TALegion

[Warmill]

If either hackas had -2 rend or brutes had a 3+ or a 5++ ward save I would be buying so many of them.

[Lanoss]

Hey what’s the consensus on Gordrakk vs MawKrusha?

I find myself writing so many lists that just cannot seem to fit Gordrakk in. 
What does everyone use Big G for? And what Kind of lists do you find he works best with?

Is he just too costly atm? Would he be too op if he cost the same (or close to) as a MBMK?

 

Thoughts?

[Malakree]

54 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Hey what’s the consensus on Gordrakk vs MawKrusha?

I find myself writing so many lists that just cannot seem to fit Gordrakk in. 
What does everyone use Big G for? And what Kind of lists do you find he works best with?

Is he just too costly atm? Would he be too op if he cost the same (or close to) as a MBMK?

 

Thoughts?

I love him, he's an absolute beast but those 80 points are just so hard to find. I often end up in the situation where I have a massive amount of points remaining I just can't shift well. Combine that with his inability to take the Sunblessed Armour/Rightfist of Dakkabad and it's also costing you both a CP (50 points) while also making him less tanky. You can offset the CP by just taking a weirdnob general instead which I'm thinking of doing anyway.

I think if he were to drop to 510 it would be very interesting as he's then exactly 50 points more expensive, which is a CP. 

As an example on the list side.

Spoiler

Leaders
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Gorefist (130)
Ardfist (120)

Endless Spells / Terrain / CPs
Extra Command Point (50)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 3
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 123

vs

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz

Leaders
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
- General

Battleline
6 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (320)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Pig-iron Choppas

Units
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

Battalions
Gorefist (130)
Ardfist (120)

Total: 1920 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 2
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 118
 

Dropping the 2nd WC to keep the weirdnob as your general, lose the extra CP and have 80 points float...if he was 30 points cheaper I'd be able to keep that mandatory second WC.

EDIT: Every time I try to make a list with him I just find that I end up with an awkward amount of points left over which I just can't shift.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Malakree

[Lanoss]

Thanks @Malakree

I agree and understand what you’re saying 

a 510pt Gordrakk wouldn’t go amiss 

[Kasper]

9 minutes ago, Lanoss said:

Thanks @Malakree

I agree and understand what you’re saying 

a 510pt Gordrakk wouldn’t go amiss 

Not being able to take a trait/artefact is a big deal. I feel unique characters are often priced really odd compared to their standard counterpart that can be beefed up big time.

His CA also feels a little lackluster. While it is better than the normal CA, theres just so much you want to spend CPs on that I rarely find myself wanting to waste a CP on his CA.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Kasper

[tripchimeras]

8 hours ago, Kasper said:

Not being able to take a trait/artefact is a big deal. I feel unique characters are often priced really odd compared to their standard counterpart that can be beefed up big time.

His CA also feels a little lackluster. While it is better than the normal CA, theres just so much you want to spend CPs on that I rarely find myself wanting to waste a CP on his CA.

Yeah I agree with this.  I think the CA is usually the determining factor on Special Characters with the lack of trait access, with a few exceptions.  If they have something unique to them that is really big deal in terms of synergies they are going to get used, but without it 90% of the time Generic is going to just be better.   Morathi is one of few exception to this where she doesn't have any really unique synergy abilities, but is still crazy strong, but being impossible to kill in less then 4 turn phases will do that...  Baring crazy stuff like that, the trait/artefact + reduced point costs of generic characters usually outweighs any other benefit from a special character, and I think that is the case here as well.  I don't think he is bad enough he has no viable place and seems like others have mentioned, he may be easily redeemed with point drops, but I think he is bad enough that he is going to be relegated to a few niche hyper aggressive Big Waagh! lists, and largely unseen at most tourneys.

Brutes unfortunately have a much bigger problem.  Where I think Gordrakk has a clear niche in Big Waagh! where if the points are right he is worthwhile without making generic Maw Krusha's completely redundant, Brutes and ardboyz fill identical voids and are never going to be simultaneously strong imo.  They are just too similar.  I think point edits can reverse the position of Brutes and ardboyz but never truly bring them to balance.  Brutes are in an identical situation to Sharks in deepkin imo.  They share a nearly identical purpose with another unit  (eels for sharks, ardboyz for brutes) and there is no differentiation to make both consistently viable.   In both cases the statistical variation is not huge, but without distinct roles that statistical variation, however small, is all that is needed to relegate one to shelves and the occasional "casual" game.  In both cases the  aesthetically superior models are objectively worse and have no clear path to relevance save point changes extreme enough that the more efficient unit is simply reversed causing the problem in the opposite direction.  

Brutes need a distinctive place in the army to thrive, and that is not something a faq can change.  GW needs to expand the variations  in elites in particular, to support the small elite larger base size units where a larger unit fills the same niche.  Doing slightly more damage in the case of the brutes, and having an afterthought shooting attack in the case of the sharks is not enough.  They need some function unique to them.  I don't know what function that is, but GW needs to think of something because this is becoming a consistent problem, where there are just not enough roles in an army for even very limited ranges like Deepkin and Ironjawz to avoid this issue of identical roles.  In big tent books like Cities this isn't as big of an issue, but in limited ranges this type of duplicate role issue is really annoying, and really highlights the limited range of unit functions that currently exist within the game.  We need a ripple of some kind.  Maybe it is objective based, maybe it is synergy based idk, but these types of units desperately need something.

Edited December 9, 2019 by tripchimeras

[Kasper]

20 minutes ago, tripchimeras said:

Brutes unfortunately have a much bigger problem.  Where I think Gordrakk has a clear niche in Big Waagh! where if the points are right he is worthwhile without making generic Maw Krusha's completely redundant, Brutes and ardboyz fill identical voids and are never going to be simultaneously strong imo.  They are just too similar.  I think point edits can reverse the position of Brutes and ardboyz but never truly bring them to balance.  Brutes are in an identical situation to Sharks in deepkin imo.  They share a nearly identical purpose with another unit  (eels for sharks, ardboyz for brutes) and there is no differentiation to make both consistently viable.   In both cases the statistical variation is not huge, but without distinct roles that statistical variation, however small, is all that is needed to relegate one to shelves and the occasional "casual" game.  In both cases the  aesthetically superior models are objectively worse and have no clear path to relevance save point changes extreme enough that the more efficient unit is simply reversed causing the problem in the opposite direction.  

I thought Gordrakk was gonna be a clear winner in Big Waagh, but the current top lists don't even bring him and in many lists you wont even see an ordinary Maw Krusha. It is really easy to generate at least 10+ points a turn in Big Waagh even without Gordrakk, and any additional points is kinda redundant outside of some special tactic aimed at activating the 24 pts. Waagh. - Even then, you will get to 24 pts. at the start of the combat phase if you generate 10 pts. a turn and then make charges/get into combat. So.. 

Gordrakk is just not killy enough, his CA is kinda lame and his defense is quite bad in a meta with units having 3+ rerollable saves and additional FNP ontop. I feel like he's in this weird spot where you sink way too many points into 1 character, but at the same time the model isn't expensive enough to make him some god-tier monster everyone has to play around. He's too easy to focus and take out, which is why people prefer more models. If he was fewer points but weaker, sure. If he was way more expensive but a crazy beast, sure. But currently? Nope.

 

I feel like there is a space for Brutes, but they needed some unique rules, like more aimed at killing big monsters (+1 hit vs high wound models isn't enough of a benefit) or extra resilient against magic or whatever. They are tougher Ardboyz, so they should be the unit the Ironjawz field when they have to bring out the big guns to combat something truly terrifying/elite. 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Kasper

[broche]

53 minutes ago, Kasper said:

I thought Gordrakk was gonna be a clear winner in Big Waagh, but the current top lists don't even bring him and in many lists you wont even see an ordinary Maw Krusha.

I play big waaagh and would never use Gordrakk. Brutish cunning is essential in BW. Playing Gordrackk would mean i would need to use a Footboss or extra krusha wich would start to seriously hinder model count.

Brutes are definitely in a tough spot right now. 5 brutes are inferior to ardboys for mid game teleport  (as they lack the +2 charge), and gruntas have similar output on the charge, but with better move.

To find the right place of Brutes, we need to assess their strenght:

1. Highest damage per point.  (between 30 and 70% more damage than ardboys if you manage to get +1 to hit)

2. Highest damage per area. 10 brutes take around 33% less space than 15 ardboys (without factoring Gore hacka), wich is quite significant.

3. 2'' reach: Gruntas and krusha have access to this as well, but brutes is our only infantry that get this. 

So factoring all this, for me brutes roles is quite clear, it's mid game Hammer. Use them in squad of 10+, or like Malaktree suggest spam them in a Brute fist. A squad of 15-20 brutes followed by a warchanter should win most combat. Playing a bigger squad also ensure you have enough left for counterattack, even against big hitter. It's worth to note that ardboys scale better with the warchanter buff than Brutes with the warchanter buff, so if you plan to use warchanter on Brutes you might want to remove Gore hacka first. 

I think 15 is a nice number. It make you a nice blok for 420 pts. It fall right on the spot  between 20 and 25 ardboys, and I think that were you would get the most value from them, as at this number the advantages of footprint/reach become quite significant. You'll also benefit for a +1 bravery for the first 15 damages, so you don't need to wory too much about battleshock for first few kill from magic / shooting.

Still, they are flat. One thing I would at least have liked is keeping the RR1 from Megaboss (that would make both him and the brutes better, there was no real logic to remove that ability) and obviously the rend 2 on brutes boss would also have been nice.

[Jabbuk]

8 hours ago, broche said:

think 15 is a nice number. It make you a nice blok for 420 pts. It fall right on the spot  between 20 and 25 ardboys, and I think that were you would get the most value from them, as at this number the advantages of footprint/reach become quite significant. You'll also benefit for a +1 bravery for the first 15 damages, so you don't need to wory too much about battleshock for first few kill from magic / shooting.

Would you only take hackas as weapons in this group or you'd field dual-wield weapons?

Edited December 10, 2019 by Jabbuk

[Incredebilis]

Could Brutes be superior to Ardboys if you're facing an army with lots of 4-wound battleline (ex. Blightkings)? With 10 Brutes, you would have 24 attacks on a 2+/3+/-1/2 with a Warchanter, and then add on the Gore-hackas and Boss Choppas. It sounds pretty intimidating for 280 points.

I haven't done the math to compare them, which is the main reason I'm asking. (Sorry if it's been asked before)

[broche]

3 hours ago, Jabbuk said:

Would you only take hackas as weapons in this group or you'd field dual-wield weapons?

I think it doesn't matter that much.  With Hacka you all brutes can attack with a 7 brutes frontage.  So let say say you have 7 dual weild + 3 hacka, you loose 5 brutes so 15 attack, but you get 7 more from dual weild, loosing a net 8 attack. So basicaly you would need to front with 9 brutes to have the same output.  But once you start loosing 3+ brutes however dual weild is just strictly better.  I think Hacka really start to pay at 20. 

 

2 hours ago, Incredebilis said:

Could Brutes be superior to Ardboys if you're facing an army with lots of 4-wound battleline

As a benchmark, 15 ardboys with warchanter is 28.5 dmg, 10 brutes is 35. With +1 to hit, Brutes will jump to 45 dmg, so yes quite more than ardboys. However to assess the value of Brutes over ardboys it's more a meta thing. Right now top army include some 4 wound model but not in large amount.  So i'm not sure i would factor this to much in my choice, but it's not a bad bonus to get and it will definitly trigger some time (will it matter is another story, as Ironjawz tend to overkill glass canon stuff anyway)

[FatherTurin]

As an Ogor player considering branching out to some Orruks, I just want to say this:

Please, by all means, leave the Brutes at home.  😜

[Planar]

So, hitting a local tournament this weekend and thinking to play a double dragon list for the first time. I really enjoy how  cabbages play and they tend to be MVPs in my 2k IJ armies so far. 

One trick I would love to pull with this list is alpha strike 2 cabbages with mighty destroyers on the front line, the frst cabbage hit and delete the screens and the second cabbage activate with smashing and bashn pile in and reach the valuable stuff behind.

I am considering dropping either 1 warchanter or the weirdnob for a second fungoid for the CP generation. But I am torn because the tepeort of the weirdnob is a cosntant headache for the oppoenent and had won me several gaems with late game objective capture

What do you guys think?

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
LEADERS

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Command Trait : Ironclad
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact :  Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait : Weird 'Un

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact :  Metalrippa's Klaw
- Mount Trait : Mean 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat : Killa Beat

Orruk Warchanter (110)
- Warbeat : Fixin' Beat
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)

Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies

UNITS
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)

20 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (240)

BATTALIONS

Ardfist (120)
TOTAL: 1970/2000     EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1     WOUNDS: 122 LEADERS: 6/6    BATTLELINES: 0 (3+)    
BEHEMOTHS: 2/4    ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2    ALLIES: 330/400
 

 

[Malakree]

17 minutes ago, Planar said:

So, hitting a local tournament this weekend and thinking to play a double dragon list for the first time. I really enjoy how  cabbages play and they tend to be MVPs in my 2k IJ armies so far. 

One trick I would love to pull with this list is alpha strike 2 cabbages with mighty destroyers on the front line, the frst cabbage hit and delete the screens and the second cabbage activate with smashing and bashn pile in and reach the valuable stuff behind.

I am considering dropping either 1 warchanter or the weirdnob for a second fungoid for the CP generation. But I am torn because the tepeort of the weirdnob is a cosntant headache for the oppoenent and had won me several gaems with late game objective capture

What do you guys think?

You're short 3 battleline since Ardboys are only battleline in 5s.

I almost want to say just go Big Waaagh! instead since you're running basically no CP's and aren't using a clan.

Spoiler

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry

Battleline
20 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (240)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130

Lose the battalion but swap the standard MK for Gordrakk which renders the battalion artefact meaningless anyway. You don't have the engine to fuel the Ardfist either so that isn't to painful and you get the disgustingly powerful Wurrgog.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

So quick question. I take it may be not the case but... in big waaagh do IJ get to benefit from bonesplitter spells like breath of gorkamorka?

[Kasper]

22 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

So quick question. I take it may be not the case but... in big waaagh do IJ get to benefit from bonesplitter spells like breath of gorkamorka?

Do you mean if you get to cast the spells? You need to field a BS caster to get access to their spell lore.

If you mean if the buffs can affect IJ units, you have to look at the spell and see if it has a  BS keyword or just "friendly units" in which case it'd be fine. 

[broche]

5 hours ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

So quick question. I take it may be not the case but... in big waaagh do IJ get to benefit from bonesplitter spells like breath of gorkamorka?

Not it specify Bonesplitterz

[Planar]

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

You're short 3 battleline since Ardboys are only battleline in 5s.

I almost want to say just go Big Waaagh! instead since you're running basically no CP's and aren't using a clan.

  Reveal hidden contents

Allegiance: Big Waaagh!
Mortal Realm: Aqshy

Leaders
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Warchanter (110)
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Trait: Ironclad
- Artefact: Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait: Weird 'Un
Gordrakk the Fist of Gork (540)
- Mount Trait: Mean 'Un
Wurrgog Prophet (160)
- Lore of the Savage Beast: Gorkamorka's War Cry

Battleline
20 x Savage Orruk Arrowboys (240)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 0
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 130

Lose the battalion but swap the standard MK for Gordrakk which renders the battalion artefact meaningless anyway. You don't have the engine to fuel the Ardfist either so that isn't to painful and you get the disgustingly powerful Wurrgog.

Daaaaaaamn,  I was pretty sure this limitations as only for Big Waagh, not pure IJ. Thanks for the catch!

Well this runis everything . I want to like Gordrakk but so far I struggled with him dying too fast and costing too much. and I am feeling a cabbage with Metalrippa Kalw will output more damage that poor old G  at least in my local meta  which is 2+ save heavy .

6 hours ago, Malakree said:

I almost want to say just go Big Waaagh! instead since you're running basically no CP's and aren't using a clan.

Mmmmm I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. "I am running no CPs"? Can you plese clarify?

I want to stick to Ironjaws because I find Cabbages very independent with their own Might Destroyers. they basically run/ reach wherever they want. Obviously as you say Ardfist goes ut of the window but to keep the second artifact I am thinking something like this:

 

Spoiler

Allegiance: Ironjawz
- Mortal Realm: Aqshy
LEADERS
Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- General
- Command Trait : Ironclad
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact : Ignax's Scales
- Mount Trait : Mean 'Un

Megaboss on Maw-Krusha (460)
- Boss Gore-hacka and Choppa
- Artefact : Metalrippa's Klaw
- Mount Trait : Weird 'Un

Orruk Warchanter (110)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (110)
Fungoid Cave-Shaman (90)
- Allies
UNITS
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1 x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
10 x Orruk Ardboys (180)
- 1 x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
5 x Orruk Ardboys (90)
- 1 x Gorkamorka Banner Bearers
3 x Orruk Gore-gruntas (160)
- Jagged Gore-hackas
BATTALIONS
Ironfist (160)

TOTAL: 2000/2000 EXTRA COMMAND POINTS: 1 WOUNDS: 111
LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 2/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4
ARTEFACTS: 2/2 ALLIES: 90/400

Still a bit nervous about dropping the warchanter and also cant decide about the weirdnob vs second fungoid 

[broche]

@Planar i think 5 character is a lot in double krusha list. 

So it's a tough call between 2 chanter and wizard. Personnally i would keep 2 chanter and drop the wizard all together. Loosing mystic shield is a bit sad, but you can always spend a CP to rr1 when it matter. I think I would also go for Ironsunz. I'm honestly not seeing the value of Ironclad that much. Witch Maw Krusha likely to engage in turn 1 the -1 to hit look huge. The command also ensure that the Krushas are not ignored.

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Planar said:

Mmmmm I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. "I am running no CPs"? Can you plese clarify?

So I view Ironjawz as ridiculously CP intensive and you're only getting 1 extra with no engine behind it (Mass CP generation or aetherquartz).

Compare what you're getting from Mighty Destroyers to a 6++ with +1 hit/wound AND your 20 arrowboys become battleline. Plus you get access to the casting buffed Wurrgog Prophet who is arguably the best model in the entire book. +4 to cast on his fist of gork is disgusting.

They just announced that Sheffield Slaughter isn't running realm artefacts so I almost instantly dropped IJ for big waaagh!