AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[broche]

i would add agains stormcast you need to be sure your MK is protected from Deepstrike in T1 by bubble wrapping it. He is the best threat agains SCE (high rend and mortal wound output, and flying)

[Rock Lobster]

Just now, broche said:

i would add agains stormcast you need to be sure your MK is protected from Deepstrike in T1 by bubble wrapping it. He is the best threat agains SCE (high rend and mortal wound output, and flying)

Agreed, He can really make a mess of key pieces, dodging over screens and crushing things they dont want hit, but only if he lives long enough to do so. Its actually one of those scenarios where the double or triple Krusha list is better than the bloodtoofs build. The fly makes a huge difference.

[DerZauberer]

So i had a games this Weekend with a funky list @Malakree proposed.

It was the Gordrakk / Weirdfist list. I've played against sylvaneth dreadwood(? the one where he gets to choose D3 bonuses after deployment, e.g. redeploy 6" away). Long story short, i've lost those games due to several mistakes i made. But i think i have enough intel (for me personally) on Gordrakk and Weirdfist.

So my thoughts:

Big Baby G really has a place i think and we should try to fit him in our lists. I got alphastriked by 6 kurnoth hunters with the redeploy and with his teleporting ability gained through the dreadwood he practically obscured 3/4 of the table. He could do so as i had to screen Gordrakk and the weirdnob with my 2 x 10 aardboys to not just straight loose them to the kurnoth alpha strike. In the end i only lost 10 ardboys. Thats the biggest downside on Gordrakk i think, you really need to screen and protect him as he is squishy. 

On my first turn then - after my opponents alphastrike - i really had a huge potential through Gordrakk to swing the game around. 5 brutes eliminated the 6 kurnoth (with the aid of a footboss and a additional waagh) and i could spread as much as i needed to gain some board control back and into melee. Gordrakk does a lot of damage, as did  the Footboss. Gore Gruntas tried against some dryads near woods but without the warchanter buff, it's hard to kill stuff (even with the gordrakk buff). Second units of brutes failed the charge and second ardboys stayed close to my weirdnob but in melee with a off-place branchwraith.

But trying to get back boardcontrol was also the downside regarding the Weirdfist. I really think after only playing one game that the weirdfist is just not worth its points. We played on Aqshy, i had the balewind and pendulum and a single weirdnob (as the weirdfist can only include a single one). I really wanted the Inferno Blades on my brutes. As i got alphastriked i lost a +1 to cast and had only +2, but just a single roll. So there was only two really important spells, inferno blades (the realmspell) and balewind + inferno blades. Both not profiting from the weirdfist. And after my first turn my army was forced to get board control back, i really needed to spread out, so i already knew the maximum i get in the following turns is a +1 to cast and maybe 2 bonuses from the weirdfist, each only applying on arcane bolt, puke and foot. You can't increase the range nor the damage of all the important spells, either endless or realm. 

So the Weirdfist is something i really can't agree on, it's just not a good build with contrary bonuses. Either get a lot of MSU around your weirdnob for + range and mortal wound output but have your half army act as one 10" blob, or run a single 30 ardboy blob for the +3 to cast and flexible board control, but only get one extra dice for range or mortal wound output. In addition, you really need a second caster. You need one dedicated foot/puke/bolt weirdnob and one caster who does the realmspells or endless spells. You could argue 'just get the balewind or the cogs for the second cast', but it's an additional risk you need to make. When you fail balewind or cogs, you practically lost a huge amount of value due to spending so much points on practically nothing.

It's for sure fun in a non-objective based game, but it's really hard to pull off against any list which can spread fast on objectives or alphastrike you.

My next plan is to give Gordrakk a try with a Ironfist, with no endless spells and a fungoid instead of weirdnob for important realm spells. I'm even thinking on skipping magic at all when running bloodtoofs - as i really dislike the weirdnob now more then ever and the fungoid would make me two instead of one drop (which is a huge thing against other alpha strike armies) - instead upping the 10 man ardboy unit to 20. 

Edited September 11, 2018 by DerZauberer

[Superninja]

I intend to try the weirdfist again, but I basically agree with you.  It is a lot of points for 1 trick that you may not succeed at or even try.

I don't like the weirdnob.

You can put another weirdnob in the weirdfist, just doesn't get any bonuses.

 

I do like Gordrakk . He is expensive and and a bit squishy though.

 

Edited September 11, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

@DerZauberer I'm glad you had a good game and learned quite a bit.

I agree our lists are a little awkward at the moment but the experimentation is cool to see ?

I really do think they need to introduce the 40k rule that you can't deploy outside of your deployment zone in the first turn. Would do wonders to stop some of the stupid teleporting rubbish which is everywhere now.

[broche]

Gordrack work perfectly fine with no bataillion providing you have another waaagh source (a megaboss or Warboss or a second mawkrusha). Gordrack cost 140 pts more than the regular Krusha, You gain a character with a really potent command ability and hit significantly more, but cannot buff his resistance with trait/artefact. It's basically like having a Maw Krusha who took offensive item in the end. 

If you take bataillon and Gordrack, you're now at 320 invested point (that 20 ardboys) so you're better make sure you get a return on this.  With a gorefist, you most likely will as everything will attack turn 1. In a weirdfist, you're mostly playing defensive, and likely to take endless spell (more points). A regular defensive MK working as an Anvil is probably more usefull, You're probably better to invest those 140 pts in 10 ardboys by finding an extra 20 pts somewhere or an extra shaman for Mystic shield or extra mortal potential. 

Also don't forget that weirdfist indirectly put pressure on your opponent. So even if it does nothing, the fact that it force your opponent to react to your potential 10-15 mortal output and attack you early enable you to counterattack with most of your army in your example @DerZauberer

But from your post i understand you're list had Pendulum and you were only playing one weirnob in a weirdfist, and you were playing with realm spell, wich is counterproductive. You want the Weirdfist shaman to cast Bolt or Foot or Puke to get bonus from the bataillion. If you want to take endless spell or use realm spell, you need a second wizard (either another weirnob or fungoid)

From what I read  it look like players tend to invest a lot of point in non-troop, and I think it's a mistake. 

 

[Superninja]

Long post.  Please read, I need help!

     Guys I am getting frustrated and I need your help.  I am not having much success with Ironjawz.  I have probably 8-10 wins(i think its closer to 8 and at least double that in losses.   My opponents so far are Stormcast 2 win (2k pts)/6-8losses (2k pts), Slaves to darkness(all flavors) 1 win at 1k pts/8-10 straight losses at 2k pts, Nighthaunt 1 win(new guy first game)/2 losses(2k pts), Idoneth Deepkin 1 win (1500 pts), Fyreslayers 1 win (1000pts/new guy 1st game), Tzeentch 2 wins(new guy/1st 2 games 1500pts/2k), Dispossessed 2wins/2-3 loss, Skaven 2k 1 win/4 loss.

     I have been trying all the builds as fast as I can.  The only thing I don't have the models for is that full out gorefist list that has more than 12 goregruntas.( i have 12) (i haven't tried gorefist yet.)

     Basic build; 0-1 Cabbage and/or 0-2 Megaboss and/or 0-2 warboss, 1-2 Shaman (wierdnob/fungoid), 1-3 warchanters, 1 unit of 20-30 ardboys, 2-4 units of 5 brutes, 0-2 units of goregruntas. ironfist.  Ironclad/Mirrored Cuirass/Aetherquartz/ Goldentoof/Boss Skewer (artefacts i usually choose from)

     I've tried weirdfist once, Gordrakk 3 times, bloodtoofs 5+ times, Ardfist 3 times,  Ironfists 10 times, no battalion a few times, ballistas 5+ times.  I've used fungoids (which I like) and weirdnobs 1/and 2 (which I don't like) (first successful foot of gork this weekend though!...didn't get the 4+ to stomp again...)

     I slaughter my friends that have just started.  (Which also sucks since they are new...doesn't feel good for them and not really me either) I also slaughter someone who hasn't fought/seen ironjawz yet.  This is due them only having only certain models, not fully knowing/remembering what I can do, not fully knowing/remembering what they can do etc.  Once they have played me a couple times (and gotten more models) they realized that large units are necessary to stop smashing and bashing or at least it helps.  (and one friend makes sure to tell everyone that)

Problems so far:

• Large Units that are buffed up are extremely hard to remove (30 chaos warriors,  with War shrine, re-roll save buff, fatesworn battalion save, etc.)
• Ranged units hurt.  Celestar ballista placed behind me etc...wow.  Skaven with their mortals.  Hard to sit and defend when you are getting shot and we want to charge into melee anyway.
• Opponents reserve units that can drop anywhere make things quite difficult.
• Not much is available to stay and defend an objective when you are trying to get everything into melee.  The more invested on defense means less punch when it gets there.
• Waagh range makes setting up feel like i want to be in just 2/3's of the map.  Or just that spreading out seems bad.
• Actually getting enough of the army into melee at once and succeeding at the Waaagh!
• Keeping non cabbage heroes close enough to action to get look our sir, keep buffs on, get everyone in Waagh.
• Weirdnob has done more damage to me than opponents so far.  Units tend to move/charge away from him, making it hard to keep his bonus which is one of the main points to bring him.  2 weirdnobs is madness for me.  10-20 regular orruks with bows kinda makes it feel better.  Doesn't feel great though, feels expensive though it helps defend.
• Without bloodtoofs, drops are usually higher than opponents forcing me to go first.  They usually set up so that I won't be able to reach them in that first round barring some lucky rolls on rampaging destroyers.  So, typically I am heading toward them and then on their turn they can move/shoot/charge me.   Teleport/drop/setup behind just makes this even more frustrating.
• Allies offer choice to fill holes, but you can typically only fill one type of hole.  Cheap casters, Cheap ranged units, Cheap Chaff units, or Artillery.

 

     Lately, Gordrakk feels like the only option to reliably do what we need to do.    Without him, it really feels difficult to get in with enough of the army at once.  But he is so expensive in points that list building with him and a battalion leaves little option.  Feels like I'll only play one list now for the most part.  This is taking away my desire to play.  This is making it feel like the money and time invested were wasted.  It feels like my opponents have a lot of options and can leverage the options quite easily.  While I have little options and have a hard time leveraging them.  I feel like I am going up hill in the snow both ways while they are sledding downhill. 

     I am contemplating downsizing or trading or selling my army outright.  The new beasts of chaos look great!  But I fear letting go of stuff and having new options come out for ironjawz in the near future.  (per rumors) I love the way Ironjawz look but the playstyle and options may just be too limited.  I just want to play and feel I have a chance in the game.

HELP ME SEE THE LIGHT!

Edited September 12, 2018 by Superninja

[Banglesprout]

Hey guys, love some of the discussion going on at the moment, so thanks to everyone who's contributing!
 

I am currently building my guys towards playing a Bloodtoofs list - I really like the one drop, bravery, and extra artifacts. What I'm not sure I like is the cogs that everyone seems to pair them with. I'm just not convinced that an 80 - 120 points shaman + 60 points cogs (combined that equivalent to having another unit) is worth it - partly because I don't see our shaman options doing much *besides* casting cogs, partly because I don't like that in spending all those points there's no guarantee I'll get cogs cast on the first turn (although for this reason I do think Fungoid is the better option) and partly because the cogs also help out opponents!

Has no one who's played these kind of lists found they've had these issues with cogs?

Anyway I was wondering what a nice Bloodtoofs list might look like without cogs and came up with this:

• Megaboss on Mawkrusha
• Megaboss
• Warchanter
• Warchanter
• 20 Ardboyz
• 5 Brutes
• 5 Brutes
• 3 Gore Gruntas
• 3 Gore Gruntas
• Ironfist & Bloodtoofs

2000 points on the nose.

What I like about this as I've switch what would usually be a shaman + cogs into a warchanter + 10 extra Ardboyz. I really like a larger unit like this, and the warchanter guaranteed buff is great too. It feel like its going to be more reliable to me, but I guess I'm going to have to play it and find out...

[broche]

@Superninja

Hard to tell without seeing the game. Obviously i think right now, withouth being bad,
Ironjawz are a bit of a disavantage again more recent army because they lack magic and artefact choice and other round buff.
 
Normally you would expect an average player to win 50% of the game. We saw that Ironjawz perform more around 40% victory rate
from recent tournameent stats. However i do think playing skill can greatly increase your winning rate. From what you report, 
it seem you're more around 33%, so either you play suboptimal list (but your list seem pretty standart), or you play against 
better opposition than you most of the time (either army wise or skill wise)

Ironjawz is overall a slow, tough army (ardboyz and gruntas are really tough point wise) with really good attacking power.
Golden tooth was a huge addition in my opinion in 2018 as you can now have a battleshock immunity bubble, on part with army like 
Khorne and Fyreslayer.
So you should play a "balanced" game (unless you use gorefist): playing the board scoring point, kill what matter and outlast 
your opponent. Pick the fight that matter. If something is utterly resistant, ignore it if possible. 

What i like with Gordrack and Warboss is that they are much less bunker dependant. In any case, you're playing a chess game
and Maw Krusha is like your queen. If you rely on MK for waaagh (15'' bubble + 6'' base is enough to work in satellite), 
you need to play lots of small character (at least 2 warchanter i say) and at least 9 ironjawz units total to trigger 
the waaaagh when it matter (but i would say 10 total is the best)

Problem with Ironjawz is the lack of trick, and i think fungoid as general is the best trick avalaible, followed by weirdfist
and ardfist.  

[Banglesprout]

Hey @Superninja sorry to hear you're feeling down! Here are some thoughts on your problems

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Large Units that are buffed up are extremely hard to remove (30 chaos warriors,  with War shrine, re-roll save buff, fatesworn battalion save, etc.)

You've got two  options. First is go for it. So you charge in with one of your key combat units - usually either your mawkrusha or a big unit of brutes. (have you tried 10 - 15 of them in a single unit?). Give them the buffs you can, hope you can do it.

Possibly this isn't the best option though - what might be better is pin this large unit in place by charging it with a unit which is just gonna hold them there for a bit - like some Gore Gruntas. Then move around that unit and attack other stuff with your key combat units - like the heroes that are buffing that large unit in the first place for example. Mawkrusha is particularly good at this because he can fly over stuff that's in the way and attack enemies that are behind the front line.

Deciding which of these two options to take is kinda the fun part of playing Ironjawz

 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Ranged units hurt.  Celestar ballista placed behind me etc...wow.  Skaven with their mortals.  Hard to sit and defend when you are getting shot and we want to charge into melee anyway.

Yeah ranged units hurt, and it's really hard to watch your guy slowly (or not so slowly) dieing if they're not really achieving much. I guess as Ironjaws we never really defend (unless playing weirdfist *maybe*) - you've just gotta try to play the objective and accept that some (or lots) of your stuff is going to die, it's just a question of "what value can I get from it before it does die"...
 

 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Opponents reserve units that can drop anywhere make things quite difficult.

Yeah we don't have these shenanigans, which in some ways means we're playing proper, but it can be tough. The best way I can think of to counter this kinda stuff is allied goblins for board control, or at least as a shield protecting your key combat units from getting hit. Ardboyz can kinda do that job too in a pure Ironjawz list. Spread out to limit where they can drop, and physically stand in front of the important units you want to keep alive, so that they have to charge your shielding unit. Of course if the deep strike unit can fly or has ranged attacks it becomes even harder...

 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

• Actually getting enough of the army into melee at once and succeeding at the Waaagh!

I think because of Waaagh, and Smashing & Bashing, we can feel like we need one or two epic turns where we absolutely explode and annihilate the enemy.. and I guess this *can* happen - but it's not always possible, and it's not  the only way to play. There's no reason you can't use waagh in a turn just to buff one or two combats to make the difference.

 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

•  Without bloodtoofs, drops are usually higher than opponents forcing me to go first.  They usually set up so that I won't be able to reach them in that first round barring some lucky rolls on rampaging destroyers.  So, typically I am heading toward them and then on their turn they can move/shoot/charge me.   Teleport/drop/setup behind just makes this even more frustrating.

I know this is easier said than done, but in this scenario you are correct. You kinda have to accept that you're going to get hit first - so you push a unit in front of the enemies face (Gruntas or Ardboyz probably) knowing it's going to get hit and maybe killed. Your key combat units are behind that somewhere waiting to counter charge your enemy after he has hit your unlucky first wave. Of course.. your opponent is probably going to be trying to do something similar back to you... that's Warhammer

Edited September 12, 2018 by Banglesprout

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Opponents reserve units that can drop anywhere make things quite difficult.

This is something which really ruins the game at the moment. They need to change it so that you can't deploy outside of your own deployment zone on turn 1, like they introduced with 40k.

 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Not much is available to stay and defend an objective when you are trying to get everything into melee.  The more invested on defense means less punch when it gets there.

There are ways around this depending on the mission. If it's Knife to the Heart just ignore the mission and go for kill points, we can't win that mission.

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Large Units that are buffed up are extremely hard to remove (30 chaos warriors,  with War shrine, re-roll save buff, fatesworn battalion save, etc.)

Couple of things regarding this, one is that we suck at trying to remove this kind of unit. Generally you want to pin one end of the unit with Ardboys and tie the whole unit down so that your other stuff can move more freely.

It's also really important to know how Modifiers and Rerolls stack up in terms of Ordering vs RRAll.

Rerolls Occur before Modifiers. 

Quote

DICE ROLLS Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?
A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!

This means if your opponent has reroll all failed saves then they can only reroll saves which are unsuccessful BEFORE rend. This means that rend of any kind absolutely Fs them in the A. For example.

1. They have RRafs and a 4+ base.
2. You attack with -1 Rend.
3. Your opponent rolls a 4 to save.
4. Before modifiers a 4 is a successful save roll.
5. Your opponent can only reroll unsuccessful save rolls.
6. Your opponent cannot reroll his save roll of a 4.
7. The window to reroll saves ends.
8. You then apply the -1 modifier.
9. This save roll now becomes unsuccessful.
10. The attack is successful and damage is dealt.

This is SUPER important for dealing with things like Chaos Warriors, Sequitors.

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Waagh range makes setting up feel like i want to be in just 2/3's of the map.  Or just that spreading out seems bad.

This is fixable by correct tailing during charges. Waaagh! only requires that the unit be within, not wholly within, this means if a tiny fraction of one models base is in range the whole unit counts as in range.

So when you charge, you move the unit so that there is a tail stringing out towards the Megaboss. Then at the start of the combat phase they are in range. Then when you activate the unit you use the pile-in move to shuffle the unit and maximise your models in base contact.

This generally means your cabbage needs to be in the centre of the field but due to his base size and the fact it's 15" means you are hitting a massive area, 36", around the middle of the board. With proper tailing you can hit all but the absolute extremities of an opponents line.

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Weirdnob has done more damage to me than opponents so far.  Units tend to move/charge away from him, making it hard to keep his bonus which is one of the main points to bring him.  2 weirdnobs is madness for me.  10-20 regular orruks with bows kinda makes it feel better.  Doesn't feel great though, feels expensive though it helps defend.

I'm really feeling this, I think you need a unit of 30 Ardboys for him to go with, this precludes the use of Bloodtoofs is what I'm finding. Honestly I think our mega-battalions might have to be no magic.

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Without bloodtoofs, drops are usually higher than opponents forcing me to go first.  They usually set up so that I won't be able to reach them in that first round barring some lucky rolls on rampaging destroyers.  So, typically I am heading toward them and then on their turn they can move/shoot/charge me.   Teleport/drop/setup behind just makes this even more frustrating.

Yep, sucks ass. See my above about no deploying outside of your deployment area on turn 1.

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

Keeping non cabbage heroes close enough to action to get look our sir, keep buffs on, get everyone in Waagh.

Running, Running constantly. That's how I do it. Then later in the game I put Ironjawz moves on them to push them further up the board. Remember you can run during that move.

Also if you are using Bloodtoofs you get +1 to run rolls from it (the rule is +1 to run and charge rules).

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

     Lately, Gordrakk feels like the only option to reliably do what we need to do.    Without him, it really feels difficult to get in with enough of the army at once.  But he is so expensive in points that list building with him and a battalion leaves little option.  Feels like I'll only play one list now for the most part.  This is taking away my desire to play.  This is making it feel like the money and time invested were wasted.  It feels like my opponents have a lot of options and can leverage the options quite easily.  While I have little options and have a hard time leveraging them.  I feel like I am going up hill in the snow both ways while they are sledding downhill. 

Power Creep is real and GW has done nothing to fix it.

Honestly some of the older armies need a big cost reduction. Morathi for example is 480 points, Spirit of Durthu is 380, Great Unclean one is 340. Exaulted Great Unclean one is 480.

Imo Maw Krushas should be about 380 points, Gordrak around 480, Brutes at maybe 160, Ardboys at 80 (for 5)/400(for 30) and GG's at 130. The footboss should also be 120 and Weirdnob at 100.

Maybe I'm swinging a little low but definately having Ardboys available in units of 5 alone would be such a huge improvement.

[Superninja]

Thank you Broche, Banglesprout, and Malakree!

WOW! I have to say that I really appreciate you guys taking the time to respond.  That alone has raised my spirits.  I will take your words of wisdom and continue fighting.

I just tried two units of 10 brutes last night for the first time.  Typically run MSU.  I found it meh, so far.

The order of operation of the save rolls is something I think we have not been doing right. THANK YOU.

The pinning of opponents units is something I need to get better at.

 

[Superninja]

NVM I FOUND IT. Thank you! 

We have been messing this re-roll thing up.  Both my opponents have been messing it up.  This should help me a little bit.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Superninja

[Malakree]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/

https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/06/age_of_sigmar_core_rules_designers_commentary_Basesizes_en.pdf

Page 2, bottom right.

Quote

 

DICE ROLLS
Q: Some abilities allow me to re-roll a successful (or unsuccessful) roll. When this is the case, is the success or failure based on the roll before or after any modifiers are applied?

A: Re-rolls happen before any modifiers are applied, so the success or failure will always be based on the unmodified roll. Note that, when an ability says you can re-roll a failed roll, you may want to consider the effect that modifiers may have before deciding to re-roll the dice. For example, if a roll succeeds on a 4+ and you have a +1 modifier, you probably don’t want to re-roll ‘failed’ rolls of 3, because they will become successful after the modifier is applied!

 

It's really important for anything which applies negative modifiers on any rolls. For example, if you attack a hero who has -hit with brutes it can be really horrible.

ie. You attack a Nurgle hero who has -2 to hit with brutes. You can reroll 1s, 2s and 3s. However a 4 and 5 miss but can't be rerolled. Obviously an unmodified 6 is always a hit.

EDIT: 

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

The order of operation of the save rolls is something I think we have not been doing right. THANK YOU.

It's why I brought it up. It's a very obscure rule which doesn't come up that often. The effects of it are also quite arcane, as someone who played MTG back when the stack and stack manipulation was a key skill I've dealt with similar stuff there.

Quote

Combat damage is dealt, then damage is resolved. However because there was a gap you had an activation window where you could have a monster deal combat damage then play a spell which removes it from play and puts it back into play. As this is now a new copy of the monster it doesn't have the damage on it, however the opponents monster still has the damage AND has been blocked so when damage resolves it dies!!!

So yeah this is kind of a tame version but if you aren't a hardcore maths gamer (known as a Spike in MtG) then it's not intuitive at all.

Edited September 13, 2018 by Malakree

[Superninja]

Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Superninja]

@broche

If you take away my wins against new players and players that haven't fought ironjawz before, I am left with like 3 good wins.

I do not claim to be good.  I am still learning.  I do believe the slaves to darkness player to be more experienced/possibly "better".

I do not usually have this problem in tabletop games.  I have always been able to 'git gud'.  I know they are completely diffenent games, but in X-wing i was able to win several (small) tournaments. 

[Malakree]

1 hour ago, Superninja said:

@broche

If you take away my wins against new players and players that haven't fought ironjawz before, I am left with like 3 good wins.

I do not claim to be good.  I am still learning.  I do believe the slaves to darkness player to be more experienced/possibly "better".

I do not usually have this problem in tabletop games.  I have always been able to 'git gud'.  I know they are completely diffenent games, but in X-wing i was able to win several (small) tournaments. 

It depends on the scale you are playing them at. The only time I've played xwing it was 100 points I think. That's the equivalent of ~500 in AoS.

AoS/40k are far more mathematically and tactically complicated than many other similar games just because of the huge quantity of dice rolled.

That said there are definite tier lists like I outlined before and we aren't in the T1. Let me see if I can grab that post to copy/paste, found it

Spoiler

On 1/31/2018 at 5:24 AM, Malakree said:

So after doing some tournaments and generally playing games/analysing stuff I split the game/armies into a two/three different segments, depending on how you look at it.

1. These armies are broken, they abuse some/multiple forms of mechanic to generally avoid playing the game. That's the key bit, they DON'T play the game, they play their own special version where some of the rules don't apply to them.
2. This is the balanced armies who actually play the game, Ironjawz are in this bracket. You have good options, solid stats, aren't overcosted and are thematic.
3. Finally we have the armies who play the game but do it badly, their options suck and they are overcosted. Big difference between T2 and T3 is that a great player with god like rolling using a T3 army will still lose to the broken armies. 

Once you make that divide, specifically the T1 vs everyone else divide, suddenly the game makes a bunch more sense. Things like tzeentch, stormcast or seraphon (especially with prenerf engine of the gods). They avoid having to deal with movement, they avoid having to deal with losing units, they avoid having to care about properly setting up, they avoid having to care about armour saves or wound rolls.

Those armies aren't actually playing the same game that the rest of us are, if a seraphon player gets spectacularly out manoeuvred then he can just teleport away without a care in the world and there is NOTHING you can do to stop it. They are simply not playing the same game as the rest of us and it results in games feeling like you just don't have the tools to fight them. Tzeentch has cheap tarpits which just render them basically immune to melee armies when played properly all while they sit and output an obscene number of mortal wounds that don't care how many points your armour save costs.

Then you have the rest of the armies who form a much more traditional tier list of which Ironjawz are definitely near the top. 

I think I'd actually put 4 tiers now.

• T0 being the ones who can consistently place high on the tables in tournaments, currently that would be Nurgle, LoN, DoK etc. 
• T1 is then the ones which can compete with the T0 lists reliably but don't have the overwhelming power. They would be your classically "strong" end of the armies and can place up the tables but don't do it consistently.
• T2 is your 3/5 armies. Solid good armies who play the game honestly.
• T3 is your utter garbage armies who have done amazingly well if they go 3/5.

The distinction primarily is at the T0 and everything else divide. T0 will reliably smash anything which is T2 or T3 to the point that even with incredible luck you will probably still lose vs them. T1/2 are really only separated by their win rate against T0 armies. Currently Ironjawz are top end of T2. We do very well against the T1 armies and the reason we aren't in it is because the T0 armies smash us reliably.Here's the other posts I made in the thread in which I outlined the broad problems facing the game, why T0 armies exist and some totally minor waving of my own flag.....

Spoiler

 

On 1/31/2018 at 3:03 PM, Malakree said:

Basically all the problems boil down to a small core of issues.

1. Teleporting, there is to much of it, its to easy and there's no counter. This is the "does your faction have to care about the movement phase/rules" problem.
2. Save stacking, this comes in two forms but both are problems. First is getting up to a 1+ save with rerolls and effects on succesful saves otherwise known as "The stormcast problem" best example is the unkillable stardrake which has a 1+ rerollable, heals on a 4+ and inflicts mortal wounds on successful rerolls. 
3. More save stacking. Second is the endless saves, best expressed as "Death doesn't die" they get 3/4 different save attempts against any wounds they take only one of which is actually an armour save, worst example of this irronically is fyreslayers.
4. On a 6+ to hit inflict mortal wounds. This and the previous are an incestuous pair who serve to hide and exacerbate each other. The only reason the save stacking is allowed to exist is because you have armies which just ignore them with their normal attacks, while this is only allowed to exist because otherwise stardrakes would be immortal. "Bloodletters" is both the best name and archetypal example of this.

There are a whole bunch of ways I could explain why each of these are a problem, counter examples of the mechanic done in a none problematic way. For example, if we look at the seaphon teleport then compare it to the destruction move its hilarious how overpowered and unbalenced it is. One gives 6" of movement on a 6 while the other is a map range teleport on a 2+ which on a 6 doesnt even stop you moving. Even if it said "on a 6+ your unit may teleport otherwise nothing happens" it would STILL be stronger and that's a massive nerf even before you consider all the destruction move restrictions. 

Needless to say I can easily show, using examples, logic and things which gw has said/done, why each of the above is not only overpowered but bad for the long term health of the game. The extention of this then becomes how do we fix the problems, some have elegant solutions while others just need to be massively regulated. 

Teleporting

This is one of those things which just needs to be regulated. There is to much of it at the moment, that's unquestionable, and more importantly it turns up in places where it isnt costed for. Vanguard wing is a good example of a teleport which isnt properly regulated, it should require that the unit be wholey within 10/16" or some such distance, this retains the intent behind the teleport while stopping the shenanigans it's used for at the moment. All the stormcast teleports require a similar restriction and the game as a whole needs to have a 3" deployment blocker around enemy units.

Seaphon are the otherside of this scenario where the units are just not costed to include a mapwide teleport. This means you get situations like kroak teleporting before summoning a balewind vortex, artillery pieces and the like doing unavoidable and unblockable teleport snipes. The solution to this is that any teleport which isnt able to be costed for, so a warscroll or batalion, needs to be very restrictive. So in the case of seraphon removing the 2+/6+ reult so that the unit is essentially mysticalled until the end of their turn.

Save Stacking

There are actually a couple of changes which form a really elegant solution to this. The first is to change all "reroll failed saves" to "reroll saves of 1", this just cuts down the quantity of rerolls happening and means that even without rend the majority of units where this occurs will be leaking damage at a much higher rate. The second change though is the key one which provides the elegance.

This is an extension to the current rule of one for saves. "A roll of a 1 on a save is always a fail, if an attack has rend then it increases the automatic fail equal to the amount of rend. For example a save automatically fails on a 1 or a 2 if the attack has rend -1 while an attack with rend -3 would cause the save to automatically fail on a 1, 2 3 or 4.

This stops the most egregious forms of save stacking while also causing rend to act as the natural counter to armour saves it's supposed to be.

Mortal Wounds on 6+

This is rather simple with the changes to rend made, simply altering them to say "on a 6+ to hit increase the rend of this attack to - 3" this means they still need to roll to wound and saves are still possible which does a ton to bring them in line. 

The only other change needed is to change all"on a roll of" to require that result BEFORE MODIFIERS so that a roll of 6+ is no longer altered by +/- to hit which allows those units to be costed far more easily and be much more robust with regards to changes going on around the unit. For example a +1 to hit for daemons aura at the moment would either be overcosted for 99% of armies or broken as all hell with bloodletters. This being an amazing example of how the health is negatively impacted by the current state of affairs. That model couldnt exist in slaneesh because khorne could get it, thus it's either restricted to slaneesh demons thus ensuring it sucks for ga:chaos or it becomes mandatory in khorne.

Sorry for the wall of text I kinda went off on one again.

I'd just like to point out here that I not only did I call for a switch to "unmodified rolls of a 6" in January but literally told them that WC stacking with some form of 6+ was a huge risk on New Years Day.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:30 AM, Malakree said:

Warchanter - Frenzy of Violence(Fov) is 1 unit for next combat phase only, probably undercosted, FoV stacking is a thing.

On 1/1/2018 at 4:30 AM, Malakree said:

There are two potential changes to the Warchanter both of which deal with the issue at hand. My preferred is option 2 as it solves a few issues at once while adding interesting choices for both players.

• Option 1: Frenzy of Violence: Pick one Ironjawz unit that is within........You can add 1 to all the hit rolls made for that unit until your next hero phase.
• Option 2: Frenzy of Violence: You can add 1 to all hit rolls made by an Ironjawz unit which is within 10" of an Orruk Warchanter when they make their attacks.

The reason I have a preference for the second Option 2 is because it turns it into a Persistent Totem effect which affects all your nearby units. However it only checks when their attacks are made meaning if he is killed the buff is lost. Additionally it stops the multi-buffing from several different warchanters, having 2 on top of each other is still only +1. As such it is both a nice buff and a sensible nerf rolled into one.

Then they released Sword of Judgement anyway ?

 

Edit: Anyone else notice that they have our allegiance ability, which was to strong, cut and paste to thunderscorn beasts of chaos.

Honestly we destruction needs it's rules update yesterday. 

Edited September 13, 2018 by Malakree

[PlasticCraic]

2 hours ago, Malakree said:

Edit: Anyone else notice that they have our allegiance ability, which was to strong, cut and paste to thunderscorn beasts of chaos.

Honestly we destruction needs it's rules update yesterday. 

Yep, I was just thinking the same thing this morning!  

It's dispiriting that Chaos are getting this gigantic leg up with yet more GA-wide keyword synergies, and Destruction is left to rot as usual.  Very dispiriting.

[novakai]

I guess all we can hope for this year is that Orktober isn't totally all 40k stuff and there stuff for fantasy Orc but that just wishful thinkin at best I feel.

it really bad on GW parts playing favorite and making Destruction players wait until 2019 for any Battletome considering the lack of GHB updates.

[Malakree]

I wonder if we need to be shifting gears into something like this instead.

Quote

Allegiance: Ironjawz
Mortal Realm: Ulgu

Leaders
Orruk Megaboss (140)
- General
- Trait: Brutish Cunning 
- Artefact: Sword of Judgement 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
- Artefact: Talisman of the Watcher 
Orruk Warchanter (80)
Orruk Weirdnob Shaman (120)

Battleline
30 x Orruk Ardboys (450)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
20 x Orruk Ardboys (320)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)
10 x Orruk Ardboys (160)

Battalions
Ardfist (170)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Extra Command Points: 1
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 205

It puts a ridonculous amount of wounds on the table and can potentially being back 180 for round 2.

Plus it gives us the units we need to both protect our own objectives and challenge our opponents. I'm not sure about the weirdo but honestly those 120 points are hard to spend, it gives us a wizard for the scenarios which need them, an extra ij to fish for the extra move and with 94 forums on the board his +2 should be easy to maintain.

Brutish cunning is a nasty trick imo and the megaboss should only see combat when you want to delete something with the SOJ.

[Superninja]

I know they are very different games, just throwing out an example.  Just trying to say that I am not completely stupid. (usually)

 

Again, thank you for the replies/help.

[broche]

Yeah sometime a sligthly better player than you it can really skew your result specially if you play oftnen agains him. Good news is that it only make you better
The most game I play are against my friend and collegue who is not only a very good player but also always play the top army at it's peak
of srenght (He won Capital city Bloodbath and finish top 4 at both last LVO): Sylvaneth, Tzeench, Mixed Order, Seraphon and now Idoneth. I've won 1 game
against him on like more 15. But when in tournament i never did worse than 50-50, and my overall win rate against anyone but him is like 90%. 

I don't know Slave too much, but concerning Ironjawz, Malaktree did a good summary of Tier. Some army are just playing a different game. 
But i'm a little more optimistic than him. I think Seraphon (depending on build) and Tzeench are both winnable match-up for example.
Match up i wouldn't want to face would be DoK (they're like Ironjawz but just better, the house with the 5++ reroll is just a huge design error from GW)
and Idoneth (You just have turn 2 to really hurt then as they have cover in round one and attack first in round 3 and everything move 14'', fly and run and charge.)
Stormcast right now problem is Sequitor (too cost effective as it's both hard hitting and have unjustified save reroll), 
but I would take my chance anytime against Stormcast before DoK and Idoneth.

On a positive side, playing against Ironjawz is hard as well for a lot of army. Any Ironjawz army can generate a huge damage spike on turn 2. So unless
every objective are defended by 30 berserker or 20 sequitor, any minimum size IJ units with +3 attack and a Warchanter buff can claim it. If you can
kill 500 pts of model (ideally units with lots of model) in round 2 you're in good shape.

[BenWithJam]

Been working on an Ironjawz list myself, have a load of models and I'm in the process of painting + building now. I haven't finalized the list and was hoping to get some feedback  

The base looks something like this:

Quote

Maw-Krusha

3x5 Brutes

1x3 Gruntas

1x20 Ardboys

Bloodtoofs + Ironfist

This totals at 1740 points.

With the remaining points, I was thinking either:

Quote

2 Warchanter

1 Fungoid Shaman

20 Points spare

Or 

Quote

1 Megaboss

1 Weirdnob

Any thoughts from people that more experience playing than I do?

[Rock Lobster]

43 minutes ago, BenWithJam said:

Been working on an Ironjawz list myself, have a load of models and I'm in the process of painting + building now. I haven't finalized the list and was hoping to get some feedback  

The base looks something like this:

This totals at 1740 points.

With the remaining points, I was thinking either:

Or 

Any thoughts from people that more experience playing than I do?

Perhaps consider option 1 there, but instead of leaving 20 points spare, swap the 20 ardboys for 10 and up a Brute unit from 5 to 10. Gives something for those warchanters to buff and trigger smashing and bashing.

[broche]

One thing i'm wondering is: Bloodtooth seem so popular, but nobody seem to like Ironsunz. I never played one or the other, but Ironsunz seem more appealing to me.

Bloodtooth: +1 run (meh), +1 charge (this I like, but second +1 is really not as good as first +1), +2 bravery (ok, but kinda useless as you can take golden tooth and/or Skewer)

Ironsunz: Bigger Maw Krusha (never bad), and 66% of an potential game breaking ability.