AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Arkahn]

4 minutes ago, broche said:

After a good night of sleep, I think i might like Bloodtooth. I think I would use them with the Weirdnob general, trait with double spell (hand of gork + something else) and +1 cast artefact. I actually like the auto hand of Gork artefact, i think it actually give some nice oppening move. Not sure about the command ability, but i guess it might sometime get usefull after you kill something, then you move to grab an objective.

Bloodtooth trait is double spell ? And you give up waagh ! Because your general will not be a megaboss

[Scurvydog]

Bloodtoofs trait is +2 to the Whaagh count, which might make it a bit more likely to get 2 instead of 1 more attack ONCE per battle, that is an awful trait. You also need a realmgate still, I cant believe they kept that in. The +1 run and charge is decently useful, but everything else is rather bad.

It is mildly humorous to use with a Brutefist though, have a unit with the boss of 15 brutes with hackas, use the artifact to ensure they teleport, then use the free mighty destroyers from the brute boss to move, you should now be within 5" and you get +2 to charge. Make sure to buff these guys with a warchanter first. Now your enemy has the ultimate angry mob in their face turn 1

[DestructionFranz]

On 9/28/2019 at 4:21 PM, Scurvydog said:

If running with a Mawkrusha general you'd be crazy to not use Ironclad, that alone is so good a command trait it can overshadow the Ironjawz allegiance Warclans forced traits. At least it says add one to saves, so does not worth with etheral amulet which ignores modifiers, positive and negative, so keeps that cheese away, also unable to combo it with the reduce rend by 1 from ironsunz as they have a forced 1 CP trait (meh).

A Mawkrusha with ironclad 2+ save, metalrippas claw on choppa/hacka combo for 8 attacks with rend 3 and the big un for +1 damage to fist and tails will be a terror to behold. Use a warchanter for more buffs and possibly the healing warbeat for laughs.

 

Then, a wizard will cast a Purple Sun Of Shysh and will destroy our MawKrusha in one turn. 😞

[Scurvydog]

3 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

Then, a wizard will cast a Purple Sun Of Shysh and will destroy our MawKrusha in one turn. 😞

With mighty destroyers your MK got a 24" move potential minimum, so if you get hit by a purple sun you got outplayed  

Metal rippers was also just for the overkill, by all means grab the ignax scales for some added protection, that is still probably one of the best choices.

[Arkahn]

9 minutes ago, DestructionFranz said:

Then, a wizard will cast a Purple Sun Of Shysh and will destroy our MawKrusha in one turn. 😞

2D6 on a 6, do not abuse ! 😂

A really tanky MBMK can be Ironclad + Ignax scale, +1 save and 4+ save vs MW

EDIT : Scurvydog faster 😅

Edited September 30, 2019 by Arkahn

[broche]

44 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

Bloodtoofs trait is +2 to the Whaagh count, which might make it a bit more likely to get 2 instead of 1 more attack ONCE per battle, that is an awful trait. You also need a realmgate still, I cant believe they kept that in. The +1 run and charge is decently useful, but everything else is rather bad.

It is mildly humorous to use with a Brutefist though, have a unit with the boss of 15 brutes with hackas, use the artifact to ensure they teleport, then use the free mighty destroyers from the brute boss to move, you should now be within 5" and you get +2 to charge. Make sure to buff these guys with a warchanter first. Now your enemy has the ultimate angry mob in their face turn 1

Yeah in fact the artefact is the strongest part of the Bloodtooth and why it's worth considering. Deepstriking 20-30 ardboys, with the damages they do now is really strong. +1 charge is never bad, and the +2 is meh indead, but still increase your odds of +2 attack. 

Side note that once you teleport you can't move using MD, you would need to charge if you're within 12'' of ennemy unit (so it basically give you a free charge at 7, then you can charge again in charge phase if you missed.)

[Fuggorf]

1 hour ago, Arkahn said:

Bloodtooth trait is double spell ? And you give up waagh ! Because your general will not be a megaboss

Pretty sure you've got your wires crossed there, buddy.

[Scurvydog]

3 minutes ago, broche said:

Yeah in fact the artefact is the strongest part of the Bloodtooth and why it's worth considering. Deepstriking 20-30 ardboys, with the damages they do now is really strong. +1 charge is never bad, and the +2 is meh indead, but still increase your odds of +2 attack. 

Side note that once you teleport you can't move using MD, you would need to charge if you're within 12'' of ennemy unit (so it basically give you a free charge at 7, then you can charge again in charge phase if you missed.)

That is true, make the boss a Grunta boss then, stay outside 12, then move in 9 and enjoy +2 to charge. 6 gruntas with spears buffed by a warchanter avarages 28 damage and 3 mortal wounds on the charge against 4+ save models. that will make a mess out of anything if you can get them all into combat.

[Arkahn]

3 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

That is true, make the boss a Grunta boss then, stay outside 12, then move in 9 and enjoy +2 to charge. 6 gruntas with spears buffed by a warchanter avarages 28 damage and 3 mortal wounds on the charge against 4+ save models. that will make a mess out of anything if you can get them all into combat.

I'm thinking about the same with a Brutefist 10 brutes but you need a MBMK near them to MD

[TALegion]

2 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

That is true, make the boss a Grunta boss then, stay outside 12, then move in 9 and enjoy +2 to charge. 6 gruntas with spears buffed by a warchanter avarages 28 damage and 3 mortal wounds on the charge against 4+ save models. that will make a mess out of anything if you can get them all into combat.

It's either Goregruntas or a mob of ardboyz for the Hang of Gork, imo. Ardboyz also get the +2 charge from the drummer, making a 9 inch charge reasonably easy (6+ on 2d6 is a 72% chance, and over 90% if you reroll) - no Might Destroyers required. Buff up a unit of 15 well-placed boyz with +1 hit and +1 damage, and you're deepstriking an average of 33.4 damage at rend-1. Even if you only get 10 of them in, it's still 22.2 damage at rend-1, which is probably strong enough to also force painful morale tests on mobs of weaker units.

These numbers aren't including a Waaagh, either, which would boost that damage by 50% if it fails (1-11) or double it if it succeeds (12+). It might be harder to Waaagh deepstriking units, though, since they now need to be wholly within 18in of the users (unless you use the command trait that makes it 24).

[Scurvydog]

9 minutes ago, TALegion said:

It's either Goregruntas or a mob of ardboyz for the Hang of Gork, imo. Ardboyz also get the +2 charge from the drummer, making a 9 inch charge reasonably easy (6+ on 2d6 is a 72% chance, and over 90% if you reroll) - no Might Destroyers required. Buff up a unit of 15 well-placed boyz with +1 hit and +1 damage, and you're deepstriking an average of 33.4 damage at rend-1. Even if you only get 10 of them in, it's still 22.2 damage at rend-1, which is probably strong enough to also force painful morale tests on mobs of weaker units.

These numbers aren't including a Waaagh, either, which would boost that damage by 50% if it fails (1-11) or double it if it succeeds (12+). It might be harder to Waaagh deepstriking units, though, since they now need to be wholly within 18in of the users (unless you use the command trait that makes it 24).

Remember +1 to hit is done in the combat phase now, so you cant give them +1 unless a megaboss is close enough, you could go Gordrakk though and a Gorefist as well, move gruntas up 18", use MD on gordrakk if needed and move up to 24" and teleport a blob of ardboyz, you now got an entire angry force in the face of the opponent right away. Use Gordrakk CP to buff all units with +1 hit and watch smashin and bashin do its job.

[Jabbuk]

Just for kicks, is anyone a bit pissed that Jagged-Gore Hackas have become really good on GGs? I mean all my models have Pig Iron Choppas. Has anyone done any math to figure out if Jagged Gore-Hackas are always the best option to take?

[Martijn de Bruin]

I'm trying to understand why the Megaboss is 10 points more expensive. It feels like he lost more then he gained. Unless the d6 moves from Big Waagh! Or Mad as Hell make him worthwhile?

[Chase]

Am I the only one who wishes that Big WAAAGH! units received the other factions keywords? That would make them amazing. As it stands there doesn't seem to be much of any synergy at all between the 2. Mixing them up would only serve as fun flair, which never lasts tbh. Kind of seems like they missed the point.... 

I am a pure IJ player but it would be cool to add some bonesplittaz. Doesn't seem worth it though. Time and $$$

Edited September 30, 2019 by Chase

[Kasper]

5 hours ago, Scurvydog said:

With mighty destroyers your MK got a 24" move potential minimum, so if you get hit by a purple sun you got outplayed  

Metal rippers was also just for the overkill, by all means grab the ignax scales for some added protection, that is still probably one of the best choices.

The Weird 'un mount traint seems to be a better choice? 4+ and neither endless spells or normal spells will have an effect.

Ignax will obviously work against stuff like Keeper of Secrets, but I think spells is where he's gonna take the most damage in the majority of games.

Edited September 30, 2019 by Kasper

[Scurvydog]

Just now, Kasper said:

The Weird 'un mount traint seems to be a better choice? 4+ and neither endless spells or normal spells will have an effect.

Ignax will obviously work against stuff like Keeper of Secrets, but I think spells is where he's gonna take the most damage in the majority of games.

I would much rather get +1 damage from mean un mount trait and get ignax for all around 4+ mortal wound resist. Unless you run a Clan and no battalions, then it could be worth considering since you will not be able to take any other artifact than the forced ones, but that depends on your meta as well.

[TALegion]

1 hour ago, Scurvydog said:

Remember +1 to hit is done in the combat phase now, so you cant give them +1 unless a megaboss is close enough, you could go Gordrakk though and a Gorefist as well, move gruntas up 18", use MD on gordrakk if needed and move up to 24" and teleport a blob of ardboyz, you now got an entire angry force in the face of the opponent right away. Use Gordrakk CP to buff all units with +1 hit and watch smashin and bashin do its job.

Very true - I forgot that the megaboss's command ability was at the start of combat (As well as the warchanter's prayer). So, yes, the deepstrike option is best as part of the usual whole-army assault with the megaboss + the waaagh.

 

1 hour ago, Jabbuk said:

Just for kicks, is anyone a bit pissed that Jagged-Gore Hackas have become really good on GGs? I mean all my models have Pig Iron Choppas. Has anyone done any math to figure out if Jagged Gore-Hackas are always the best option to take?

I don't think the difference is as substantial as many think. Assuming a full unit of 3 make it in to fight, Pig-Irons do 5.8 in all fights while Gore-Hacka's do 6.9 on the charge and 4.5 if they didn't charge, all at rend -1. So, over 2 turns of a combat (assuming the combat stays the same), they are pretty much even. They scale equally with +1 damage from warchanters, so they are even there. 

 

I think gore-hackas may have a small tactical advantage in a real game, as you'd probably prefer to front-load damage on the charge if possible and the 2 inch range helps with bulky GG bases. But, that being said, I think the two are actually more equal than people have stated. They are at least close enough that no one should feel screwed-over that they modeled all of theirs with pig-irons up to now.

[Jabbuk]

1 minute ago, TALegion said:

Very true - I forgot that the megaboss's command ability was at the start of combat (As well as the warchanter's prayer). So, yes, the deepstrike option is best as part of the usual whole-army assault with the megaboss + the waaagh.

 

I don't think the difference is as substantial as many think. Assuming a full unit of 3 make it in to fight, Pig-Irons do 5.8 in all fights while Gore-Hacka's do 6.9 on the charge and 4.5 if they didn't charge, all at rend -1. So, over 2 turns of a combat (assuming the combat stays the same), they are pretty much even. They scale equally with +1 damage from warchanters, so they are even there. 

 

I think gore-hackas may have a small tactical advantage in a real game, as you'd probably prefer to front-load damage on the charge if possible and the 2 inch range helps with bulky GG bases. But, that being said, I think the two are actually more equal than people have stated. They are at least close enough that no one should feel screwed-over that they modeled all of theirs with pig-irons up to now.

It makes sense, in my games so far, Gruntas often last a few turns and it might actually even out. Of course I am talking about units of 3. Now if you put them in a unit of 6 and buff them to death for a tactical nuke, then the gore-hacks are probably best I guess.

[broche]

47 minutes ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

I'm trying to understand why the Megaboss is 10 points more expensive. It feels like he lost more then he gained. Unless the d6 moves from Big Waagh! Or Mad as Hell make him worthwhile?

I don't think there is any justification, but i don't think it's really relevant either. I guess you were not seeing it much before, and you wont be seeing it more now. 

Basically you can analyze if you're willing to sacrifice 5 brutes for him: obviously Brutes is more model, wound and damage but Megaboss will not descale (in fact h e'll scale) and is an extra character to use command ability.

[Malakree]

10 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

It makes sense, in my games so far, Gruntas often last a few turns and it might actually even out. Of course I am talking about units of 3. Now if you put them in a unit of 6 and buff them to death for a tactical nuke, then the gore-hacks are probably best I guess.

Quick number output from the diceroller with WC buff and on a charge.

Pig Iron

Gore hacka

So statistically you're dropping about 1.5 damage on average but with an increased variance. Also super important to note that the difference tanks to ~0 if you have a +1 to hit floating around (which also buffs the pigs to 2+ so isn't wasted)

[broche]

 

44 minutes ago, Kasper said:

The Weird 'un mount traint seems to be a better choice? 4+ and neither endless spells or normal spells will have an effect.

36 minutes ago, Scurvydog said:

I would much rather get +1 damage from mean un mount trait and get ignax for all around 4+ mortal wound resist. Unless you run a Clan and no battalions, then it could be worth considering since you will not be able to take any other artifact than the forced ones, but that depends on your meta as well.

This, and ignax scale protect you against much more from spell. It's acutally give you a good shot of surviving against a Terrorgheist.  Weird Un might worth it if you want to protect agains debuff. Putting both ignax scale and weird un would be overkill as they would just never target it. I would also consider Weird un on Gordrack, cause he already do so much damage that increasing his survavibility could worth more than the +1 damage.

 

 

[Malakree]

3 minutes ago, broche said:

I don't think there is any justification, but i don't think it's really relevant either. I guess you were not seeing it much before, and you wont be seeing it more now. 

Basically you can analyze if you're willing to sacrifice 5 brutes for him: obviously Brutes is more model, wound and damage but Megaboss will not descale (in fact h e'll scale) and is an extra character to use command ability.

IMO he went up because he will now reliably scale his attacks unlike before where he was unlikely to ever go above +1 if that. Additionally with destroyer now being a thing he's going to be horrific in smaller games while having amazing potential in bigger ones.

That's with no SfV stacks, +1 damage from a WC,+3 damage from destroyer, his own +1 to hit and the gbh RR1s to hit against a 4+ save.

With just 2 stacks on SfV it's now 12-30 damage averaging 20! Oh and 2 rounds of combat gives you a 9 wound foot hero with a 3+ save, reflecting mortals and we can even heal him now. It's not unreasonable he will get up to 12-14 wounds in a game which is 11-13 attacks with his axe. Do you know how mental that is compared to the garbage he was previously...

[TALegion]

1 hour ago, Martijn de Bruin said:

I'm trying to understand why the Megaboss is 10 points more expensive. It feels like he lost more then he gained. Unless the d6 moves from Big Waagh! Or Mad as Hell make him worthwhile?

 

21 minutes ago, broche said:

I don't think there is any justification, but i don't think it's really relevant either. I guess you were not seeing it much before, and you wont be seeing it more now. 

Basically you can analyze if you're willing to sacrifice 5 brutes for him: obviously Brutes is more model, wound and damage but Megaboss will not descale (in fact h e'll scale) and is an extra character to use command ability.

Strength from Victory got better and there are several useful artefacts now that can make a footboss threatening in a low-point game (Destroyer or Metalrippa's Klaw, mostly).  The other notable use that I can think of would be  to take the Ironsunz/Bloodtoof artefacts so that your Mawcrusha can have a more relevant/powerful one. But 150 is a pretty high tax for one artefact.

[broche]

The issue I see with the Footboss at 2k is more about character saturation. 

I think most list will want a Krusha, and 2 warchanter is the bare minimum given it's power. I think a Weirnob with hand of gork is also a stapple in the majority of list, as teleport alone can sometime win a game by itself (especially true now that squad of Ardboys are much more threatening). That is already 4 heros and 800 pts. So I think he will not see much play for that reason, but we'll see. There might be some go list with no Mawkrusha

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Quick number output from the diceroller with WC buff and on a charge.

Pig Iron

Gore hacka

So statistically you're dropping about 1.5 damage on average but with an increased variance. Also super important to note that the difference tanks to ~0 if you have a +1 to hit floating around (which also buffs the pigs to 2+ so isn't wasted)

That's some amazing stuff @Malakree. Thanks a lot for pulling that out. Excuse my noobitude while trying to understand these stats but all-in-all, what you're saying is that gore-hackas are superior by 1.5 damage (and about more if the pigs are included) and it also has more consistency?

So I change all my swords for spears?

 

Edit: I think I read it wrong the first time. So after a second read, what I got was: spears do 1.5 dam more on average on the charge, but the variance is greater on choppas and the damage difference might even be negated some more by including 2+ on pigs and some other +1 hit buff. Is that a better interpretation?

Edited September 30, 2019 by Jabbuk