AoS 2 - Ironjawz Discussion

[Jabbuk]

9 minutes ago, Kizkull said:

Hi! How cost the weirdnoob shaman?

I believe he's now 110 pts

[PlayerJ]

Wait wait wait wait a minute, clarify this for me, Ironjawz new Waaagh just says "if you roll up to 11 until end of phase add 1 to attack (not need 11) and if its 12+ add 2
dont know if im overthinking it

Edited September 28, 2019 by PlayerJ

[grrhh]

What do you think about Ironclad and Ethereal Amulet combo? I'm not sure they work together anymore since the Amulet says "Ignore modifiers (positive or negative)". 

[Malakree]

So the CA to charge at the start of your enemy charge phases is unbelievably good. Honestly I would say it's going to be mandatory.

NOTE: I messed up earlier in rd thread and thought it was on bloodtoofs. It's ironsunz so yeah...

Ardboys are crazy good, do we know how many points they are going to be?

Sadly I'm think that the best list is just going to be a ton of Ardboys, maybe in an ardfist, being thrown at the enemy to lock them down.

[umpac]

8 minutes ago, Malakree said:

Ardboys are crazy good, do we know how many points they are going to be

180 for 10, 90 for 5

Edited September 28, 2019 by umpac

[Scurvydog]

18 minutes ago, Malakree said:

So the CA to charge at the start of your enemy charge phases is unbelievably good. Honestly I would say it's going to be mandatory.

NOTE: I messed up earlier in rd thread and thought it was on bloodtoofs. It's ironsunz so yeah...

Ardboys are crazy good, do we know how many points they are going to be?

Sadly I'm think that the best list is just going to be a ton of Ardboys, maybe in an ardfist, being thrown at the enemy to lock them down.

Points matter a lot though, Ardboyz got a lot going for them no doubt but dont rule ardboyz out.

Lets compare 10 brutes for 280 vs 15 ardboyz for 270.

Same wound count, ardboys got a bit more staying power from up to 6 guys with shields, which on average should save you 2 wounds more.

Ardboyz got +2 charge and +2 bravery and -1 bravery drums and banners, this is the big deal.

Damage output however 10 Brutes against 4+ save models will average 12,74 damage, while 15 ardboys will average 9,48. Against models with 4+ wound profiles Brutes average goes up to 16,3, closing in on nearly doube the output of the ardboyz for only 10 pts more.

This assumes all models can attack, Brutes can also get the gore hackas for 2" reach but average damage drops to 10.67 however it is way more realistic to get them all to actually attack in more situations if you run with the 10. Same could be said for 5 brutes vs 10 ardboyz units, it is most likely easier to get the brutes to all attack.

You cant go completely wrong with either, especially if you run Choppas clan with the mandatory +2 bravery aura, the Brutes bravery will have less of an impact. If you face armies with a decent amount of units with 4 or more wound models, then Brutes will quickly become much more dangerous and/or free up warchanters and megaboss abilities and CP for other things than giving +1 hit buffs.

[Jabbuk]

1 hour ago, PlayerJ said:

Wait wait wait wait a minute, clarify this for me, Ironjawz new Waaagh just says "if you roll up to 11 until end of phase add 1 to attack (not need 11) and if its 12+ add 2
dont know if im overthinking it

That's correct. It's guaranteed +1 atk everytime unless you roll a 6 and get 12, then it's 2. You can't fail it.

[PlayerJ]

4 minutes ago, Jabbuk said:

That's correct. It's guaranteed +1 atk everytime unless you roll a 6 and get 12, then it's 2. You can't fail it.

Ok, because people here were saying you needed an 11 or it would fail.

[broche]

and I think it's just once per game

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

Frankly. the comparison of brutes vs ardboyz only holds water after the latters' brutal point inflation. 

Brutes are bad IMO, and they inflated the rest of the army's battlelines to mask that.

 

And yeah. it is, sadly, once per battle (not battleround).

[broche]

I wouldn't say they are bad. Frankly, I think the point represent units srenght and the good new is that Brutes now at 140, you'll see a lots of them wich is good because they look much nicer than ardboys!

I'm pretty sad for Weirdfist, it's atrocious. Double cast of green puke (wich now hit your own units) withouth any bonus to cast is awful.  Ironfist is awesome on the other hand, so seem Ardfist.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

3 minutes ago, broche said:

I wouldn't say they are bad. Frankly, I think the point represent units srenght and the good new is that Brutes now at 140, you'll see a lots of them wich is good because they look much nicer than ardboys

Say it right. 

 

"Them being at 140 and ardboyz at 180".

 

Had ardboyz kept the original point values, it wouldn't even be a contest. More wounds and bravery, bonuses to charge, etc,  and better objective holding capabities.

 

And this is the sad truth. They nerfed brutes while buffing other stuff and fiddled with points to mask the fact that brutes are just not very good on their current iteration.

[broche]

2 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

Had ardboyz kept the original point values, it wouldn't even be a contest.

But they didn't.

A unit is not good or bad, it's either under, fair or overpriced. And for once they did not mess up, so at they end of the day you should see a variety of brutes boyz and gruntas, which is a good thing. @Scurvydog have the good math here.

[Jabbuk]

Guys, I’d be curious to hear your thoughts now on what is the role of ardboys and what is the role of brutes. Are brutes going to be more of an elite unit for high wound units and ardboys just the grinder for everything else?  I feel like both are almost similar in terms of damage output with brutes winning, as @Scurvydog pointed out. Will you ever field 5-man units of ardboys? Just wondering what you guys: thoughts are on our new options.

Edited September 28, 2019 by Jabbuk
Typos

[Lanoss]

I’m more interested in how I could work a Rogue Idol into my army now hahaha

[PlayerJ]

Played a doubles game tonight using the revealed rules, using ironjawz units in da big waaagh.

Megaboss on mawkrusha with destroyer, ironclad and mean un will put out an insane amount of damage when you pop destroyers. The new SoV is pretty good for survival. But having no mortal wound save till you get Laugh at em from da big waagh is dangerous.

Warchanter +1 damage is the obvious new star of our army. Ardboys are the obvious choice at the beginning, but putting it on brutes once your at +1 hit and wound makes them scary.

Going to be interesting 

[Thenord]

Hi guys. Been living under a rock (no wifi) the last week, so i'm totally lost in the leaked rules of our army. Can anyone either pm me a link to where you find the rules and point changes, I can see some you have already played games using Them? 

Cheers! 😁

[Malakree]

Also interesting thing to note. Ardfist replaces a unit when it dies with EXACTLY 10 boys. 

So for 110 (WC) + 450 (5*90) + 120 (AF) = 680 points you are getting a warchanter and 5 units of chaff/objective holders which have a 50/50 chance to spawn a unit of 10 on a board edge if they die.

Combine that with ironsunz to dumpster your opponents charge phases and it's going to pretty horrible. Especially since you just straight up get the aetherquartz for the WC with your battalion.

Oh and that's 5 extra units on the WAAAGH! stack aswell as being no extra drops over the WC.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

8 hours ago, broche said:

But they didn't.

A unit is not good or bad, it's either under, fair or overpriced. And for once they did not mess up, so at they end of the day you should see a variety of brutes boyz and gruntas, which is a good thing. @Scurvydog have the good math here.

 

I find your stance against ardboyz worrysome, such a hatred.

And again, that math is because the inflation of ardboyz. Match the 2019 pricing and you find that the difference is nil. And they don't do better off because merits of their own unit, but because of an external factor of the other unit. The elite unit has a chance because the basic unit got pricier, rather than the other way around!

Edited September 29, 2019 by KillagoreFaceslasha

[Scurvydog]

From a fluff perspective I would have preferred Brutes to be the expensive units and vastly more elite, something like 200 pts for 5 and 4 wounds each with more damage and rend 2 on the gore choppa and maybe boss weapons, but that is not what we got unfortunately. 

In a perfect green world ardboyz would be the chaff of Ironjawz and even more expendable to sit on objectives and be meatshields. Right now all the units are simply too close in function and output, for an army with only 3 different non hero units, that is plain silly they are so much alike.

They are so close now that the internal balance could be said to be good, but that is not really a design achievement when keeping them so alike and providing no interesting warscroll rules to really differentiate their combat roles, a shame.

[Kasper]

1 hour ago, Malakree said:

Also interesting thing to note. Ardfist replaces a unit when it dies with EXACTLY 10 boys. 

So for 110 (WC) + 450 (5*90) + 120 (AF) = 680 points you are getting a warchanter and 5 units of chaff/objective holders which have a 50/50 chance to spawn a unit of 10 on a board edge if they die.

Combine that with ironsunz to dumpster your opponents charge phases and it's going to pretty horrible. Especially since you just straight up get the aetherquartz for the WC with your battalion.

Oh and that's 5 extra units on the WAAAGH! stack aswell as being no extra drops over the WC.

According to the GMG review the new unit is also added to the batallion, so you could keep this rolling for a long time.

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

Provided you have the CP.

It looks neat, tbf.

 

Also. Are you forced to take the sub-faction relics?

[Kasper]

28 minutes ago, KillagoreFaceslasha said:

Provided you have the CP.

It looks neat, tbf.

 

Also. Are you forced to take the sub-faction relics?

Obviously, but if you take both an Ironfist and an Ardfist batallion, you start with 3 CPs. The Ironfist gives you 1 free Mighty Destroyers per round and you can also get the trait on your Megaboss that gives you the same effect. Now you can use it twice a turn for free. That should free up quite a bit of CPs. With Waaagh being limited to once per game, we shouldn't be THAT hungry for CPs I believe.

And yes, the first artefact is forced by the subfactions.

Edited September 29, 2019 by Kasper

[KillagoreFaceslasha]

Was the trait once per round or once per game? Honestly. I kinda need a write up of the thing, I still haven't absorbed all that content.

[Scurvydog]

Everything is quite easy to see in Dark Artisans review on YT. Brutish Cunning for allows the general to use mighty destroyers free each battle round, same for bestial charisma just for inspiring presence. 

Both Megaboss anmd Weirdnob shaman traits are quite good, making the Clans a hard sell. It's a shame making the Weirdnob the general removes mighty whaagh as the bursting with power trait is so good (know one more spell and cast one more spell). They can do it as the Choppa Clan but that is from the forced artifact and the trait is bad as well, making it rather pointless.