Unit Fillers in AoS

[BaldoBeardo]

It's not just a problem for *you*, it's a problem for your opponent.

Using the example of your witch elf diorama above.

Opponent has to pile-in. Toward *what*? Individual models? The whole base? Part of the base?

Similarly, something affects only *models* within a certain range - how do you assess that?

Or deaths caused by running across dangerous terrain - how do you assess travel for the component models?

Also, unless you have "change" for the models on the base, what happens if (for instance) the unit is a congaline and one of the filler models has to be removed?

Can't think of any more OTOH, but there must be other situations where many models/1 base causes issues.

If you're putting yourself out, fine. But if you're affecting your opponent's game then you have to give them a say.

 

 

[Kaleun]

On 22.3.2018 at 5:09 PM, BaldoBeardo said:

It's not just a problem for *you*, it's a problem for your opponent.

Using the example of your witch elf diorama above.

Opponent has to pile-in. Toward *what*? Individual models? The whole base? Part of the base?

Similarly, something affects only *models* within a certain range - how do you assess that?

Or deaths caused by running across dangerous terrain - how do you assess travel for the component models?

Also, unless you have "change" for the models on the base, what happens if (for instance) the unit is a congaline and one of the filler models has to be removed?

Can't think of any more OTOH, but there must be other situations where many models/1 base causes issues.

If you're putting yourself out, fine. But if you're affecting your opponent's game then you have to give them a say.

 

 

First and foremost: You always talk with your opponent about that issue first if you go for something out of the box!! I think that is clear.

For all piling-in purposes you consider the 2x2 unit filler as 4 models standing in a square. So the same rules come in handy with the opponent piling in to the closest "model". Nothing changed there. Also the own models positions do not change during the opponents pile-in. There I cant see problems.

Deaths caused by any source can be handled that way that you kill the first 3 normal models of the unit off and then simply swap the unit filler with the dead models in case of the 4th death. Nothing special here also.

the filler itself is just a proxy. Preferably a proxy that really improves the game. Not making anything more difficult.

[BaldoBeardo]

13 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

Deaths caused by any source can be handled that way that you kill the first 3 normal models of the unit off and then simply swap the unit filler with the dead models in case of the 4th death. Nothing special here also.

the filler itself is just a proxy. Preferably a proxy that really improves the game. Not making anything more difficult.

There are abilities that kill specific models, and what if your opponents use the (very common) "measure from base"? 

It's also not be massively difficult for an opponent to lock the filler in place.

If you want to do it, fine. I don't see how it saves any time or money, and it just causes rules niggles imo so beyond an aesthetic impulse I don't see why anyone would bother.

 

[Spiky Norman]

28 minutes ago, Kaleun said:

[...] the filler itself is just a proxy. Preferably a proxy that really improves the game. Not making anything more difficult.

To be truthfully honest, I cannot see how unit fillers improve the game, neither gameplay or how the game looks.

Unit fillers was usually used for three purposes:
1: To avoid having to pay for the actual amount of models needed.
2: To avoid having to paint the actual amounts of models in the army.
3: To be able to field a more competitive army than one would otherwise be able to (see points 1 and 2).
Neither of those points improve the game, I think.

I like dioramas, but I think they belong in actual show pieces and on display boards.

[Kaleun]

On 24.3.2018 at 11:01 AM, Spiky Norman said:

To be truthfully honest, I cannot see how unit fillers improve the game, neither gameplay or how the game looks.

Unit fillers was usually used for three purposes:
1: To avoid having to pay for the actual amount of models needed.
2: To avoid having to paint the actual amounts of models in the army.
3: To be able to field a more competitive army than one would otherwise be able to (see points 1 and 2).
Neither of those points improve the game, I think.

I like dioramas, but I think they belong in actual show pieces and on display boards.

I think the mentioned points of you still aply to Age of Sigmar ;-)

[TheOtherJosh]

1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

I think the mentioned points of you still aply to Age of Sigmar ;-)

1a.Choose an alternate Army.

1b. Play smaller games, or run Skirmish. (You can have a Skirmish force for the price of two “easy assemble” kits (~$30 in the USA)

1c. Look for value in the Start Collecting kits ... or one of the large “value boxes” that are released on a relatively regular basis.

2a. Play an elite army with fewer models. 

2b. Play with unpainted minis. (I hear that’s a thing ....?)

2c. Play Skirmish. You can have a force as small as 3 models.

2d. Join the Monthly Painting Challenge and paint the force that you have to a standard that makes you happy with the results. (I’ve been working on finishing my Silver Tower set for ... quite a bit... I’m not a fast painter ... I’m not a slow painter, I’m a half-fast painter ... okay ... maybe I’m a slow painter ... )

3. See points 1a through 2c. 

WHFB wasn’t designed for small scale combats. It was large blocks of nearly identical models that were totally demoralizing to paint. (I’m not as much a fan of the hordes of models aspect... I totally get why people did loads of drybrushing and simple color schemes ....)  

[VBS]

2 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

WHFB wasn’t designed for small scale combats. It was large blocks of nearly identical models that were totally demoralizing to paint. (I’m not as much a fan of the hordes of models aspect... I totally get why people did loads of drybrushing and simple color schemes ....)  

 Tbh, WHFB did scale well. Talking more of 6th/7th (dunno 8th), but I use to play a lot of 1k-ish points games and it worked fantastic. Additionnal rules like Border Patrol and Skirmish made it very viable with just a handful of models. Maybe it's my perspective, but I don't see the scalling that different between both. If anything, we see AoS turning more and more into WHFB with time, without closed ranks obviously. So I think it isn't off to consider unit fillers considering all those horde blobs that are even encouraged by getting to pay less points or virtually all basic troops performing better the more you buy (I thought this was supposed to be bad? Is it good now??).

In any case, in defence of Unit Fillers (although I don't care too much hehe), I have the impression that most people just want to be negative about it. There is this assumption that it is to "paint less" or "buy less models". Do people do that? Of course. Is it the only purpose? Absolutely not. A lot of the most stunning armies use fillers, proxies, whatever. A mini diorama with 2 models instead of 3 or 4 sometimes requires way more work than typical line-production painting, so I can't always buy that argument. At the end of the day, Unit Fillers can be a great addition to make it more visually compelling if done correctly (huge part of the appeal for many).

For AoS, I can understand unit fillers in a horde of 30 models where you quickly remove the filler as soon as the unit takes casualties or were the impact of a filler in combat is non-existant as it will rarely interact (place at the back of a mass ranked combat to make it irrelevant game-wise). From a gaming perspective, this should be viable as long as players are fine. It improves the game by making it more fluid (less individual models to move) and can improve the visual if done correctly. 

So should we then establish rules on who is allowed to use unit fillers? 

[Jamopower]

I think the word unit filler is not good here as it takes the thoughts to a tree representing four warriors in the middle of a ranked block. Mini dioramas with ore than one model on same base would surely work well in AoS, if done with the gaming in mind. Things like this:  

Would definitely work without any problems in AoS.

[TheOtherJosh]

7 hours ago, VBS said:

It improves the game by making it more fluid (less individual models to move)

There are “skirmish” movement trays available if moving large numbers of models is the issue...

[VBS]

15 hours ago, TheOtherJosh said:

There are “skirmish” movement trays available if moving large numbers of models is the issue...

Well, I doubt it is "the issue" since moving less models is more a consequence rather than the cause of what I perceive as key in unit fillers (the visual/modelling). Those with a different approach to the term "filler" may disagree, obviously.

As for movement trays, I think it sort of a contradiction if aiming for a skirmish game, particularly when the whole combat system and a part of movement strategies revolve around not being on a static movement tray, making them quite impracticable sometimes... Trays are one of those things that I find curious for AoS, as the game reproduces more and more aspects that were initially removed from WHFB but that inexorably make their way back into the game. I digress but it's quite amusing how unit fillers and movement trays are now a relevant topic for a skirmish game... 

[Skabnoze]

The best unit fillers were always the mini dioramas rather than just chunks of terrain stuck in a unit.  If you browse a lot of old fantasy battles display armies you can find many examples that are fantastic conversion projects and not necessarily meant to save money - although a number often did.

The ones I always loved the best were things like orcs & goblins animosity represented by unit filler dioramas of models brawling is the middle of the unit.  Even GW themselves sold a small diorama of orcs and night goblins having a scrap on a cavalry base.

In the end though, there are more drawbacks for the player using unit fillers in age of Sigmar than advantages - so it really should not be a big issue if people do so.  Just make sure to talk with your opponent before hand - that is always the best solution to any issue.

[peasant]

On 3/27/2018 at 11:58 AM, TheOtherJosh said:

There are “skirmish” movement trays available if moving large numbers of models is the issue...

Thats What I was Looking for, to Quick Moving 40 marauders or Plague Monks and even preserve paintjob avoiding excessive manipulation !

[TheOtherJosh]

3 minutes ago, peasant said:

preserve paintjob avoiding excessive manipulation !

While everyone isn’t as big a fan, you might consider checking to see whether the GW Munitorum Varnish would help preserving your paint jobs:

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Citadel-Purity-Seal-2017

(I can’t talk to whether this would be a solid bet for Metal minis ... they have their own set of challenges...)

[Mr. White]

I go back and forth on this. I think in the end, if it isn't excessive, I'm ok.

Here's a good example. Say one buys Silver Tower and looks to use it to start a tzeentch army. It has 8 Kairic Acolytes in it. This is fine for Open Play, but in Matched you need 10 for a unit. GW sells these cultists in groups of 20. Should one drop ~$50 for a box of 20? We only need two here. Should we scour ebay? Or is it acceptable to find a thematic way to produce two more 32mm bases worth of 'acolytes' and get your game on?

I'm not suggesting the old trick of zombie hands coming out of a base to make a block of 20...just two.

[AthlorianStoners]

30 minutes ago, Mr. White said:

I go back and forth on this. I think in the end, if it isn't excessive, I'm ok.

Here's a good example. Say one buys Silver Tower and looks to use it to start a tzeentch army. It has 8 Kairic Acolytes in it. This is fine for Open Play, but in Matched you need 10 for a unit. GW sells these cultists in groups of 20. Should one drop ~$50 for a box of 20? We only need two here. Should we scour ebay? Or is it acceptable to find a thematic way to produce two more 32mm bases worth of 'acolytes' and get your game on?

I'm not suggesting the old trick of zombie hands coming out of a base to make a block of 20...just two.

That’s the first example I’ve seen that I’d get behind, but I think you could count on both hands the units this would apply to.

[Kramer]

On 3/30/2018 at 2:16 PM, Mr. White said:

Or is it acceptable to find a thematic way to produce two more 32mm bases worth of 'acolytes' and get your game on?

Reading through all this, most will be fine with this as you still creating 2 bases. 

 

[Lousy Beatnik]

4 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Reading through all this, most will be fine with this as you still creating 2 bases. 

 

Yep. I'd rather see a few extra bases (preferably a scenic item, familiar or whatever) painted the same as the rest of the unit, than one big base counting as multiple models. 

As an example, in 8th my missus had rat ogres with the handlers on the same bases. Used spare bases with the odd rat, discarded weapon etc. to fill the space they'd take up.