My stormcast rant : the good, the bad and the ugly, where they are now, and what should be done

[PlayerOfGames]

Unfortunately this thread  has derailed exactly to where the original poster didn't want it to go:

"Don't complain, Stormcast can be very competetive and win/place high in tournaments."

"Don't complain, other factions are far worse off than Stormcast."

This thread is not about Stormcast not being competetive or worse off than other factions. It is about the diversity of heroes, units, battalions, artefacts, etc. that you can field if you want to be competetive or at least semi-competetive.  It is also not about allies (having free choice in Order is really, really great!), it is about the diversity of Stormcast's own troops.

So lets have a look at Stormcast lists in forums and at tournaments and what they usually use:

Heroes

Very often: Relictor, Celestant, Castellant

Often: Celestant on Dracoth, Venator

Occasionally: Stardrake (mostly LCoSD), Aquilor (only Vanguard list, as he needs to be General), Neave (only Vanguard list with Shodowhammer battalion), Azyros (only Aetherstrike and only because he is mandatory there), Heraldor, Prime, Vexillor

Not used: Questor (a slow melee beatstick that is not great at melee and does not buff anyone?), Veritant (too expensive, limited usefulness), Vandus Hammerhand (too expensive, has no shield)

New kids on the block (will probably end up in "Occasionally"): Gavriel Sureheart, Ordinator (useful for mixed Order gunline or the MP campaign; maybe we will get ruination chamber soon and some nice warmachines?)

Units

Very often: Liberators (Hammer & Shield, Grandhammers, either unit of 5 for minimum Battleline cost or 30 in Vanguard Wing), Judicators (Bows)

Often: Fulminators, Protectors & Decimators (only in Skyborne Slayers or Hammerstrike), Javelin Prosecutors (units of 3), Longstrikes

Occasionally: Tempestors, Hunters & Palladors (both only in Vanguard list), Retributors (need Hammerstrike), Hurricanes, Gryph hounds (only 1 or 2, and only because of warning cry), Aetherwings (only Aetherstrike (useful) or Shadowhammers (mandatory))

Not used: Concussors (too expensive), Desolators (too expensive, need at least 6 to make them less desolate), Prosecutors with Hammers (too expensive), X-bow Judicators (ridiculous range, lack of firepower/rend, same cost as bows), all other Liberators

Command traits: Staunch defender (99%), Consummate Commander (1%)

Artefacts: Mirror shield (99%). Only if more artefacts are  unlocked by battalion: also Luckstone (Venator), Lantern of the Tempest and very few others

Battalions

Top-notch: Vanguard Wing, Skyborne Slayers (not even included in Battletome!)

Decent: Aetherstrike

Ok: Hammerstrike, Shadowhammers

The rest suffers from (usually a combination of 3 or more of the following): mediocre abilities, high battalion cost, high minimum unit cost, no or too many Battleline Units (BU for short) at that cost, no flexibility regarding number of units, 6+heroes in inflexible combination. In the following I assume the absolute minimum cost (even though no one would take 3 Azyros in Lords of Storm or such nonsense :))

Lords of Storm (720, 0 BU but 6(!) Heroes), Thunderhead Brotherhood (800, 5(!) BU), Devastation Brotherhood (1040, 1 BU), Vanguard Angelus Conclave (840, 3 BU), Vanguard Justicar Conclave (770, 0 BU), Drakesworn Temple (1700, 0 BU), Lightning Echelon (1160, 0 BU), Thunderwave Echelon (1280, 0 BU), Celestial Hunting Pack (1740, 0 BU), Storm Vortex Garrison (1440, 2 to 4 BU), Storm Heralds (1780, 0 BU)

To make your eyes water, here come the "Superbattalions":

Warrior Chamber (5520(!), 15(!) BU), Harbinger Chamber (3240, 6 BU), Exemplar Chamber (4080, 3 BU), Vanguard Auxiliary Chamber (2290, 3 BU), Extremis Chamber (4620, 0 BU),

Hammers of Sigmar (1160, 6(!) BU), Hallowed Knights (920, 0 BU but 6(!) Heroes), Celestial Vindicators (1100, 0 BU), Anvils of Heldenhammer (1140, 6(!) BU), Knights Excelsior (1220, 1BU), Celestial Warbringers (960, 0 BU but 6(!) Heroes), Tempest Lords (1100, 2 BU), Astral Templars (900, 0 BU but 6(!) Heroes)

 

TL, DR:

What could be done to increase the diversity of Stormcast heroes, units, battalions, artefacts, etc. that you can field if you want to be competetive or at least semi-competetive, without making the faction overpowered? Post your ideas here!

PS: all units/heroes of all factions should be playable (balance of abilities vs. cost)!

 

[Honk]

My Flesh Eater Court laughs at you all, kind sirs and ladies...

?????

[chord]

@PlayerOfGames  Thanks for putting us back on track.

A good break down of units not taken very often.  A bummer, such a variety of units but either due to points or rules changes they are just not taken as often.

I have some crossbow judicators, great little unit that can shoot a lot if they stand still, but no reason they are the same point value as bow judicators with such a limited range and restriction on movement.  I would recommend lowering their point value.

The paladins, such great units.  So hard to use.  I'm fine with the 4" movement if they change the save to 3+.  Everywhere in the lore they are described as heavily armored hence slow. but the 4+ just does not line up.  Keep the points the same, lower to 3+ save.

Prosecutors,  too expensive, BUT if they gave a re-roll 1 on saves against shooting (cause they fly and are very fast/agile in the lore) I'd be fine with keeping the same point value.

Gryph Hounds....how I love to paint these little guys...horribly useless in matched play.  Bought the box of 6.    maybe change the points to be for a unit of 3 unless being set up with a castellant or veritant and then you pay full points for one.?

The battalions....the points are crazy.  I believe that GW should drop points from all battalions and decouple artifacts, drops, etc from them.  This way the diversity of the battalions found in the various books (realmgate wars, army books, etc) can be used. 

 

[AdamR]

 

17 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said:

 

Not used: Concussors (too expensive), Desolators (too expensive, need at least 6 to make them less desolate), Prosecutors with Hammers (too expensive), X-bow Judicators (ridiculous range, lack of firepower/rend, same cost as bows), all other Liberators

 

 

Model for model Crossbow Judicators put out more damage vs 4+ or worse saves, and are the same vs 3+. That's if they move. They are better vs everything if stationary. So I don't think them costing the same is too bad really.

I use Sword Liberators for my 5 man Scions'ing unit, as usually they're to far away for any to hit buffs.

And I use hammer Prosecutors but keep them with shields. 

[mystycalchemy]

On 3/7/2018 at 8:05 AM, AdamR said:

And I use hammer Prosecutors but keep them with shields. 

But at that point, why not take the Javelins? Sure you get a Grandhammer/Blade, but you miss out on the built in buff that Hammer Prosecutors get for having 2 hammers (which they usually want). Javelins get you 2 damage from >9" on 3s and 3s, with the leader getting 2 shots at -1 rend on top of that.

Not criticizing, just offering an alternative opinion 

[XReN]

57 minutes ago, mystycalchemy said:

But at that point, why not take the Javelins? Sure you get a Grandhammer/Blade, but you miss out on the built in buff that Hammer Prosecutors get for having 2 hammers (which they usually want). Javelins get you 2 damage from >9" on 3s and 3s, with the leader getting 2 shots at -1 rend on top of that.

Not criticizing, just offering an alternative opinion 

I really liked using 3 man unit of prosecutors with shields and grandaxe, they can slay a lot of light infantry if not focused in time

[PlayerOfGames]

On 7.3.2018 at 5:05 PM, AdamR said:

Model for model Crossbow Judicators put out more damage vs 4+ or worse saves, and are the same vs 3+. That's if they move. They are better vs everything if stationary. So I don't think them costing the same is too bad really.

The 12" range is not to be underestimated:

- any advantage in damage output soon disappears if they cannot shoot for 1 or more turns...

- anything that they shoot at will charge them if it survives (likely, unless you combine hitting power with something else), unless you get a double turn

- which enemy willingly moves within 12" of them?

- you can boost the unit with Lightning Chariot, but for a fair comparison with the bows who do not need LC, you would have to include - say - 50% of the priest's cost into the X-bow unit cost ...

On 7.3.2018 at 5:05 PM, AdamR said:

I use Sword Liberators for my 5 man Scions'ing unit, as usually they're to far away for any to hit buffs.

well, they have a built-in to-hit buff against 5+ wounds, this is why hammers are slightly better than swords

On 7.3.2018 at 5:05 PM, AdamR said:

And I use hammer Prosecutors but keep them with shields. 

What unit size do you use? In my opinion Hammer Prosecutors are only worth it if they make use of that 3D6 charge range to get them into melee (that's a 74% chance of success after using Scions). So I'd say at least 6. Maybe 9 (but 300 pts is a hefty investment - for 240, maybe 270, it would definitely be worth considering). 12 is much too expensive and too unwieldy due to the big size of the models.

Also, dual hammers give to-hit re-rolls for both shooting and melee. What about the special weapons? The Prime should take Grandhammer/Grandblade for sure. But the normal guy(s) that can get a special weapon? Grandaxe would be cool if it had 2" range. With dual hammers, normal guy will do 0.583 wounds in shooting and 1.037 in melee, total 1.62 (all rend 0). With Grandhammer/Grandblade it's 1.333 @ rend -1, but only melee...

For comparison, hammer + shield guy will do 0.5 damage in shooting and 0.889 damage in melee, total 1.389

[PlayerOfGames]

I have already posted some ideas for Vanguard units/heroes on page 2 - so now to you, Sir Knight-Questor.

I see several options how to make him worth taking:

- make him even worse than he is now, but make him dirt-cheap (say 60 pts). That will give you an expendable Hero that you can Scion on objectives and such.

- make him decent in melee

- give him a proper Quest! For example, make him count as 10 models for the purpose of controlling/contesting an objective

- boost units in his proximity. E.g.:

Inspiring presence: "Stormcast units within 6" of a Knight-Questor can use his Bravery" (which is 8)

or

Follow me to Glory!: "Stormcast units within 6" of a Knight-Questor can roll 2 dice when running and discard the lowest value."

 

And you, Lord-Veritant!

First, let's compare his Prayer (Sanction) with the Relictor'sLightning  Storm:

Sanction: 4+, 7", D3 MW (only Wizards can be targeted)

Lightning  Storm: 3+, 12", D3 MW (any target), target is @ -1 to-hit

WTF! Plus the Relictor also has a Healing Storm and costs 40 points less! The Veritant trades all this for a single 'normal' unbind, some wonky Gryph-hound rules, a weapon that does double damage in melee, 1" movement and 1 extra wound.

Give that 2 weapon damage to someone who needs it (Azyros or Questor), reduce the cost or include a Gryph-hound in the 120, and give him a solid prayer and/or better unbind rules.

Prayer could be something like this:

Light of Sigmar: "Choose a unit within 12". On a roll of 3+ that unit is engulfed in the Light of Sigmar. Whenever a spell is cast on that unit, roll a die. On a 4+ (or 5+?) the spell has no effect on that unit."

So you could protect one of your own units from MWs or debuffs, or reduce the chances for buffs on an enemy unit. I love dual-use stuff

Examples for better unbinding utility:

- unbind more than 1 spell

- increase range for unbind, e.g., to 24"

- +1 to unbind

- unbind spells within 18" of Lord-Veritant or within 18" of his Gryph-hound

[AdamR]

4 hours ago, mystycalchemy said:

But at that point, why not take the Javelins? Sure you get a Grandhammer/Blade, but you miss out on the built in buff that Hammer Prosecutors get for having 2 hammers (which they usually want). Javelins get you 2 damage from >9" on 3s and 3s, with the leader getting 2 shots at -1 rend on top of that.

Not criticizing, just offering an alternative opinion 

I do take Javelin Prosecutors as well.
The Hammer Prosecutors are to get up close and be right in the middle of my 30 liberator blob and whatever they are charging to maximise the effect of Bearers of the Storm. The Grandweapon on the prime is so they might actually contribute something while they are there, and the shields in the vain hope they survive more than one turn!

2 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said:

The 12" range is not to be underestimated:

- any advantage in damage output soon disappears if they cannot shoot for 1 or more turns...

- anything that they shoot at will charge them if it survives (likely, unless you combine hitting power with something else), unless you get a double turn

- which enemy willingly moves within 12" of them?

- you can boost the unit with Lightning Chariot, but for a fair comparison with the bows who do not need LC, you would have to include - say - 50% of the priest's cost into the X-bow unit cost ...

 

There's this snazzy ability, I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's called Scions of the Storm 

They don't fill a niche in my current list, but I've used them before and no doubt I'll use them again!

2 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said:

well, they have a built-in to-hit buff against 5+ wounds, this is why hammers are slightly better than swords

 

My 5 man Lib blob doesn't get to choose what it fights. It scions down on an objective and takes opponents of opportunity. Without buffs, hammers and swords are functionally identical, so I get the advantage of getting to use some different models. Obviously my buff stacking 30 man blob is hammer & shield!

 

[PlayerOfGames]

27 minutes ago, AdamR said:

There's this snazzy ability, I don't know if you've heard of it, but it's called Scions of the Storm 

yes, but you can fail the Scions roll (possibly several times), meaning no shooting at all, while Bow-Judis are on the board, happily shooting.

You can also fail LC, but if it works, it gives you 3 shots rather than 2 with Scions ...

[Honk]

Not quite sure if I understand all your ramblings, but let‘s face it:

If you’re going to be all out competitive you’re min/maxing crazy the most broken stuff you can get your hands on (3x9 skyfire or whatnot) and try to bring the hurt down.

that gets boring pretty soon and reduces the used model count to a minimum...

I would suggest to grab your most trusted opponent and just go crazy with sub-imba choices and open war cards...

had a blast playing my 90 ghouls regainer list against a friend and while I was not really bringing the hurt down on his stupid seraphon (who thought up those saves ?!) it was the funniest slaughterfest since the „300“ movie...

 

[GammaMage]

I'm not really a Stormcast player, as I've only play them in Skirmish, or as allies.  But I do have a lot of experience using a Knight-Azyros quite a bit in my Darkling Covens army, as his ability allowed me to reroll hits of one with my Darkshards. Unfortunately, he tended to die horribly on turn two, as he was out in front with my Bleakswords, and people didn't like him making my crossbows better, or the possibility of him doing the light explosion thing. I always threw mystic shield on him of course, but people just took him out with mortal wounds. I don't know if  Stormcast have a way to protect him from that? He really needs a ward against magic, even if it requires his light explosion to be nerfed to justify it.

I also have a Lord-Veritant because he looks cool, but I've never played him. Can't justify his points cost, especially with the gryph-hound. The way his gryph-hound thing works feels bad compared to the Lord-Castellant, because if they kill the hound (which is easy because no save) you lose an important part of his toolkit. Honestly, I think he needs his thing to work with any gryph-hound, not just a specific bonded one.

[XReN]

29 minutes ago, GammaMage said:

I'm not really a Stormcast player, as I've only play them in Skirmish, or as allies.  But I do have a lot of experience using a Knight-Azyros quite a bit in my Darkling Covens army, as his ability allowed me to reroll hits of one with my Darkshards. Unfortunately, he tended to die horribly on turn two, as he was out in front with my Bleakswords, and people didn't like him making my crossbows better, or the possibility of him doing the light explosion thing. I always threw mystic shield on him of course, but people just took him out with mortal wounds. I don't know if  Stormcast have a way to protect him from that? He really needs a ward against magic, even if it requires his light explosion to be nerfed to justify it.

 

I haven't yet used him, but in SCE alleigence there are a few choices that can (imo) give him some survivability, it can be 4+ dispell against spells targeting him, or a 4+ explode with MW on death thingy, that can scare opponent of killing him with spells from viable buffers, but again, its SCE artefacts

[AdamR]

13 hours ago, PlayerOfGames said:

- which enemy willingly moves within 12" of them?

Another thought - the enemy that wants to be on that objective you're sitting on.

Also, why is Lightning Chariot perceived as good, but Scions bad? I know you have the models on the table already, but if they're too far away to have any effect on the game then it doesn't really make much difference. Plus it only has a 24" range. I'm not saying Lightning Chariot is bad, far from it - it's ideal for late game redeploys to grab objectives, I just find the difference in opinion between the two odd.

[PJetski]

Lightning Chariot requires the unit to already be in play.  A low roll with LC means the unit can still do something else that turn.

A low roll with Scions means the unit does nothing.

Also LC is a choice while Scions is mandatory.

[AdamR]

Did I not already write that?

[DanielFM]

16 hours ago, AdamR said:

Did I not already write that?

Yeah, but that already explain why LC is good and Scions is worse. What more do you need? ??

[AdamR]

Oh I see!

Having to spend 80 points on it and it's shorter range makes it better! 

Out of interest what units would you use lighting chariot on? And why?

[XReN]

30 minutes ago, AdamR said:

Oh I see!

Having to spend 80 points on it and it's shorter range makes it better! 

Out of interest what units would you use lighting chariot on? And why?

I used LC with 6 longstrikes against ironjaws wierdfist, i deployed my LS far away from their wizard so they can be safe in the first turn and then LC them in position and killed the wizard, also LC on relictor gives you a potential 36" range hit debuff

[DanielFM]

1 hour ago, AdamR said:

Oh I see!

Having to spend 80 points on it and it's shorter range makes it better! 

Out of interest what units would you use lighting chariot on? And why?

Those 80 points go towards:

-An additional unit to score.

-An additional debuff+damage/heal per turn

The LC is almost icing on the cake.

I have used it with success with Hurricane Raptors (27 shots the moment you drop), for the Lord Relictor itself (makes his default prayers a lot more useful) and to redeploy Liberators that were no longer needed in my backline.

[AdamR]

Yeah, I was thinking it could be good on the Relictor himself to keep up with other stuff. But then you lose out on Bless Weapons, which is my go to Relictor prayer!

EDIT - crosspostage!

I can see LC being at it's best with Hurricane Raptors. 

Also I think the main benefit of LC over Scions is one that no-one has mentioned - it happens in the Hero Phase, so you can buff units first.

 

[DanielFM]

Is it me or does getting -1 to hit against shooting for the whole army for one of those random DoK temples feel unfair on top of their allegiance abilities, prayer list and magic lore?

Paying for the Stormhost battalions would make me feel even more stupid now.

To bring something new to the discussion: yeah, Sylvaneth should also get their different Wargroves as free rules, and any other army which pays battalions for that too.

[XReN]

5 minutes ago, DanielFM said:

Is it me or does getting -1 to hit against shooting for the whole army for one of those random DoK temples feel unfair on top of their allegiance abilities, prayer list and magic lore?

Paying for the Stormhost battalions would make me feel even more stupid now.

To bring something new to the discussion: yeah, Sylvaneth should also get their different Wargroves as free rules, and any other army which pays battalions for that too.

Well, before GHB 2017 I've been running Tempest Lords host in my 1000pts list and I really, really won't trade their prosecutors ability (which is absolutely fantastic and have to be payed for) for any free stuff GW can come up with, so I say: throw away mandatory battalions and rework (mostly lower) point costs for for those abilities so they will be worth taking

[DanielFM]

2 hours ago, XReN said:

Well, before GHB 2017 I've been running Tempest Lords host in my 1000pts list and I really, really won't trade their prosecutors ability (which is absolutely fantastic and have to be payed for) for any free stuff GW can come up with, so I say: throw away mandatory battalions and rework (mostly lower) point costs for for those abilities so they will be worth taking

Army-wide -1 to hit against shooting shouldn't be free yet it is for DoK.

I don't know why some or all the Stormhost abilities couldn't be handled in the same way instead of requiring overpriced battalions. Let's be honest: they went out of their way to make them more expensive across the board in GHB2017 and we expect to lower them in GHB2018?

[PlayerOfGames]

Gryph-hounds: split warscroll into two warscrolls:

Gryph-hound Alpha: is a single model, has all current rules (Loyal Companion applies to Lord-Castellant and Lord-Veritant) and 3 attacks, stays at 40 points

Gryph-hound hunting pack: any number of models (no Alpha),  and loses all special rules except Darting Attacks. 20 points each