Lets Chat: Idoneth Deepkin

[mmimzie]

Let's talk thrall here guys... I think we are all abit to pumped about these guys. 

 

Damage out put is solid, but the numbers are abit unrealistic. 

 

For instance I saw once or twice 3x30... That's 90 thralls... That does even fit side by side length wise accross the table. You only get one rank. Also anything 2-3 Your screwed. These thrall will struggle to squeeze under the turtles protection let alone the 9" spell. Also fitting them into melee will be qiite tough with out large charge rolls to get surrounds on targets, as you only get 1 rank of attacks. 

 

Now that's not to say they are bad, I think you just have to soul scarier them onto the table to really get good use out them. Also note any buffing units that strictly buff your thrall you'd have to include in the price of the thrall when figuring thier game. 

 

I also think we aren't giving the offensive eels enough love. Thier damage on the charge is quite comparable to thatof the thrall, but are more durable. Not to say they are better, I think thrall and eels are kind of on the same level. Also for high tide you can buff the eels with the king which is a pretty powerful +1 attack accross the eels profile. 

[Helmut]

29 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

For instance I saw once or twice 3x30... That's 90 thralls... That does even fit side by side length wise accross the table. You only get one rank. Also anything 2-3 Your screwed. These thrall will struggle to squeeze under the turtles protection let alone the 9" spell. Also fitting them into melee will be qiite tough with out large charge rolls to get surrounds on targets, as you only get 1 rank of attacks. 

If thralls are on 25mm bases (which I believe they are), you will be able to attack with 2 ranks. You can certainly get most of a 30-model unit into battle. 3x30 sure is something else though.

[Baz]

They are on 32mm bases, confirmed on GW website.

 

[mmimzie]

5 minutes ago, Helmut said:

If thralls are on 25mm bases (which I believe they are), you will be able to attack with 2 ranks. You can certainly get most of a 30-model unit into battle. 3x30 sure is something else though.

"This kit comes as 90 components, and is supplied with 10 Citadel 32mm Round bases." -GW Description on thralls 

[Entombet]

On 14.04.2018 at 3:50 PM, BillyOcean said:

Wow that's quite the allies list! The old favorite Loremaster might make an appearance in some of my lists. Also, Eternal Guard provide a nice option to get cheap bodies on the table. 

Loremaster, to buff one model?.

[BillyOcean]

38 minutes ago, Entombet said:

Loremaster, to buff one model?.

Yeah... before seeing the full rules for everything else I thought it might be worthwhile to buff a shark for shooting early turns, then a King in later combat turns. Same as how I switch it between a Waywachter and (allied) Phoenix in Wanderers. But thats when I was hoping the shark would have 6 shots and rend -1 like old bolt throwers in the compendiums . Given that his shooting is rubbish regardless of buffs, I don't think the Loremaster is worthwhile anymore. I'll probably take AoSea as my sole caster: 2 spells and unbinds per turn with a reroll and +1 from Ionrach should cover all my needs.

[Hoseman]

I think I will buy and go with AoSea, Volutros, 10 thralls, 10 reavers (if theyre ok), turtle and 2 units of eels one of each. This leaves 320 points to one shark or one more eels and maybe 2 units of eternal guard and this goes exactly 2k points.

Things I maybe dislike: don't know if turtle is worth it, no ship if it costs points, no heroes apart from AoSea and Volutros, and no King... it's an expensive point army but with that I have almost every model .

Edit: maybe not shark and yes to the King. That lefts 80 points for just 10 eternal guard 

[Austin]

The ship is supposed to be free.  Apparently you can set up two of the terrain features for free, and that means either two big ones or split one kit into two for a smaller version.

[mmimzie]

1 hour ago, Caladancid said:

The ship is supposed to be free.  Apparently you can set up two of the terrain features for free, and that means either two big ones or split one kit into two for a smaller version.

I'm not sure if this is exactly the case listening to the videos it kind of nuclear. It sounded kind of like you could either set up one big ship (putting the two piece together or two small ones. Again the videos just are super unclear, and is like to actualy read the things x.x 

[TrippG11]

Enjoy.

[Luke1705]

So right now I’m thinking 2 aspect of the sea, a king, 9 eel riders over 2 squads (the durable ones), 30 namarti and 20 eternal Guard (2 squads of 10 of course)

 

The -1 to hit power debuffs are SO INSANE. Stacking -2 to hit onto a key enemy unit is basically a death blow. Having 4 casts from the 2 sea aspects is a game changer IMO, and totally worth the points since I don’t have to include a character that is exclusively a caster

 

Sadly, I don’t have enough points to make the eel riders all 1 squad and put the namarti into 2 squads, but it’s fine to have mobility in more places.

 

And for what it’s worth, you 100% can have 2 ranks attack in cc with 32mm bases. You just have to stagger them so that the second row’s closest point goes in between the gap of the two bases in the front row.

[Themoocher]

1 minute ago, Luke1705 said:

So right now I’m thinking 2 aspect of the sea, a king, 9 eel riders over 2 squads (the durable ones), 30 namarti and 20 eternal Guard (2 squads of 10 of course)

 

The -1 to hit power debuffs are SO INSANE. Stacking -2 to hit onto a key enemy unit is basically a death blow. Having 4 casts from the 2 sea aspects is a game changer IMO, and totally worth the points since I don’t have to include a character that is exclusively a caster

 

Sadly, I don’t have enough points to make the eel riders all 1 squad and put the namarti into 2 squads, but it’s fine to have mobility in more places.

 

And for what it’s worth, you 100% can have 2 ranks attack in cc with 32mm bases. You just have to stagger them so that the second row’s closest point goes in between the gap of the two bases in the front row.

how are you getting -2 to hit if you can only cast each spell once?

[Hoseman]

Seen the video and with my no native English language it seems not much difference between king and Volutros, only the attack of the Teclis sword... 

And it looks like eternal guard is going to be the most taken option as battleline for ID

[maximum_pants]

so now that we know all the rules, where do everyone think the damage in the army comes from?

 

I keep thinking of how daughters of khaine got a big unit of witche elves with 120  attacks rerolling everything, with mind razor rend 1 dmg 2.

and nurgle blades of putrefaction to do crazy amounts of dmg. even leagions of nagash having infinitely resurrecting graveguard  that put out alot of dmg with all their buffs and small base sizes.

 

Imagine you come up against fyreslayers with 3 units of 30 vulkites, what in an idoneth keepkin army can dent that?

an aspect of the storm charges in and after saves he's probably only doing 5 wounds.

 

the eels might do 10 on the charge, then they lose their bonuses and do nothing.

[mmimzie]

3 minutes ago, Luke1705 said:

So right now I’m thinking 2 aspect of the sea, a king, 9 eel riders over 2 squads (the durable ones), 30 namarti and 20 eternal Guard (2 squads of 10 of course)

 

The -1 to hit power debuffs are SO INSANE. Stacking -2 to hit onto a key enemy unit is basically a death blow. Having 4 casts from the 2 sea aspects is a game changer IMO, and totally worth the points since I don’t have to include a character that is exclusively a caster

 

Sadly, I don’t have enough points to make the eel riders all 1 squad and put the namarti into 2 squads, but it’s fine to have mobility in more places.

 

And for what it’s worth, you 100% can have 2 ranks attack in cc with 32mm bases. You just have to stagger them so that the second row’s closest point goes in between the gap of the two bases in the front row.

You can certainly get more if you stagger them, but still geting all 30 in on one combat is very unrealistic, and more likely your going to be engaging multiple units. However you that means you can't concentrate your power to take out one squad, and it means that some models inbetween the conga line may not get to attack. Drasticly cutting your damage potential. 

You can't stack the aspect's spell because you can only cast each spell once per turn in matched play. UNless of course you mean the tides of fear spell from the idoneth lore. In which case one aspect of the sea could cast both of those. Anyway on most units -1 to hit once is enough to dramaticly cut damage for instance units like skyfires. 

Also on the eternal guard, while they'd be a nice durable extra unit. it's durability that'd only matter on the first turn. Which is maybe a little meh?? As the eternal guard won't beable to keep up with the rest of your army, and shooting matters all game. 


I'm pretty on the fense about how i feel about the aspect of the sea??? the -1 to hit is nice and all, but it's range limited and 540 pts to throw it on a vortex just doesn't feel great. When i look at armies you could deal with like KO where you can't even give your targets -1 to hit before they get to shoot you, DoT who can also out turn you and just jump on you any way and get some damage in before you can debuff them. All seem kind of meh for spending a 440pt model on. That said the steed of tides spell i think might be where the magic is for the AoSea, and have either him cast it on himself,  or a support wizard boost the unit up. hmmmm.... i think that's the magic sauce there. 

[Austin]

36 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

I'm not sure if this is exactly the case listening to the videos it kind of nuclear. It sounded kind of like you could either set up one big ship (putting the two piece together or two small ones. Again the videos just are super unclear, and is like to actualy read the things x.x 

Yeah for sure we won't exactly know until we read it, but on the GMG video it sounds like he discussed two separate pieces of terrain and discusses why you might go two small vs two full size based on table conditions.

[Orsino]

6 hours ago, Hoseman said:

So seems everybody has got disappointed with ID? Seems with all this comments they have paased from an elite army before battletome reviews to a medium level and expensive army with a nice wizard...

I was waiting to make a new army half a year to expand my order collection and now it looks like they will go on the shell very beauty but to play I will have to go as always with SCE... hope not. I wanna make a nice ID army with maybe eternal guard as battleline or some mixed sylvaneth Alarielle + treelord + ID AoSea + Eels + volutros and some reavers.. hope to find a good combination for competitive with ID and put a side my SCE... 

Eternal Guard are only Battleline with Wanderers allegiance, which isn't to say they don't still have utility. 

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, Caladancid said:

Yeah for sure we won't exactly know until we read it, but on the GMG video it sounds like he discussed two separate pieces of terrain and discusses why you might go two small vs two full size based on table conditions.

well yeah that's part of the confusing bit because i honestly felt like he was talking about just 1 ship wreck kit and either putting them together or appart. 

[BillyOcean]

3 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

Also on the eternal guard, while they'd be a nice durable extra unit. it's durability that'd only matter on the first turn. Which is maybe a little meh?? As the eternal guard won't beable to keep up with the rest of your army, and shooting matters all game. 

I'm not sure they need to keep up with the rest of the army? In most scenarios you have 1-3 objectives in your own territory that need to be defended. So, I'm mostly thinking of Eternal guard as a way to leave large, durable units defending those while the faster portion of the army goes off to contest enemy objectives. The Eternal Guard can take the hit for my army in turn 1, and then just hunker down. After that, Ishlaens should fill the screening role just fine. 

[Luke1705]

12 minutes ago, BillyOcean said:

I'm not sure they need to keep up with the rest of the army? In most scenarios you have 1-3 objectives in your own territory that need to be defended. So, I'm mostly thinking of Eternal guard as a way to leave large, durable units defending those while the faster portion of the army goes off to contest enemy objectives. The Eternal Guard can take the hit for my army in turn 1, and then just hunker down. After that, Ishlaens should fill the screening role just fine. 

Yep pretty much this. Anything that wants to charge turn 1 is welcome to do so right into the eternal Guard, who can even assume their thorn formation if I go first and know I’ll get charged, and the same can happen on turn 2. While it limits some of my turn 1 mobility, that can be a super important turn 2 screen vs certain matchups.

Also while shooting is important to a degree for the entire game, it is often much mitigated after the first turn. And it’s not like anyone would just throw the important characters out in front of the eels in any turn, which is all that matters

[Austin]

I am sort of thinking the Namarti Corps Warscroll Battalion will be decent, even costing 100 points.

You have to take 2x of both Namarti units and a Soulrender but then the Soulrender auto brings back 3 Namarti each round.  For some reason the GMG video says that you have to take the Soulrender as the general then, but I think he meant if you want the Reavers to be battleline.  Unless the ability is a command ability, then that makes sense.

But bringing back a minimum of 3 bodies each round is pretty good, and would encourage larger units I think.

[mmimzie]

1 minute ago, Caladancid said:

I am sort of thinking the Namarti Corps Warscroll Battalion will be decent, even costing 100 points.

You have to take 2x of both Namarti units and a Soulrender but then the Soulrender auto brings back 3 Namarti each round.  For some reason the GMG video says that you have to take the Soulrender as the general then, but I think he meant if you want the Reavers to be battleline.  Unless the ability is a command ability, then that makes sense.

But bringing back a minimum of 3 bodies each round is pretty good, and would encourage larger units I think.

what are the battalions. do you ahve a link to that information???

[mmimzie]

35 minutes ago, maximum_pants said:

so now that we know all the rules, where do everyone think the damage in the army comes from?

 

I keep thinking of how daughters of khaine got a big unit of witche elves with 120  attacks rerolling everything, with mind razor rend 1 dmg 2.

and nurgle blades of putrefaction to do crazy amounts of dmg. even leagions of nagash having infinitely resurrecting graveguard  that put out alot of dmg with all their buffs and small base sizes.

 

Imagine you come up against fyreslayers with 3 units of 30 vulkites, what in an idoneth keepkin army can dent that?

an aspect of the storm charges in and after saves he's probably only doing 5 wounds.

 

the eels might do 10 on the charge, then they lose their bonuses and do nothing.

Well you have eels and sick cheated out spell. Teleport forward an AoSea with a tidecaler and you ahve maelstorm doing d3 more wound to each of those units 30 man blocks (not killing all the units obviously, but it's a thing) and giving those same 3 units on average -1 to hit and ravery. So if we are supporting our witch elves/plague bearers/volkite with spells lets also support our Deepkin with spells too just to be fair. From there the deepkin are bravery 10 with the AoSea hanging out meaning you need to debuff the bravery of the bravery 10 deepkin -2 to get the double damage from mind razor. 

Witch aelves: Man they are nasty, but again need spell support and the AoSea can deny so your not always getting your razor, or potential not getting your bravery reduction spells . Which is nastier because you could be at -1 to hit and -1 bravery on your witch elves meaning even getting mind razor off your hard pressed to grab that bonus damage which is really a big for the damage potential of witch elves, not to mention only one unit can benefit from the razor at any given time.  Assuming the offensive eels get the charge off on the witch elves Assuming your going for 120 attacks you aren't also taking the buckler??? meaning the eels  can kill ~22 of them witch aevles in a single round of combat (assuming haggnar) and a full unit of witch elves swinging at the offesenive eels will  do 22 wounds to the eels taking out 2/3rds of the eel unit. So it seems pretty explosive in both directions. That said if you charge the eels, they can discharge thier lances at the start of the combat phase reducing how many attacks the witch elves would even get so maybe you'd only kill half the eel squad?? then the eels swing back. Also i didn't factor in the eels getting reroll 1's from the king or any other sort of enclave love. This is also not assuming the very fast defensive eels don't lock up your witch elves by tagging them on the side. 

Verdict??? I think offensive eels with support will out do witch aeveles with support. One unit of the witch elves will get charged down, and the other unit that charges the eels will get zapped, before the eels are cut in half, and then that half of eels will dwindle the 2nd unit of witchelse down to nothing. 

Not sure about all the nurgle and vulkite things. I know vulkites are rock hard to get through and that's definitly something to consider, but as we can see you have ways of fairing well against units like witch elves, and so i could only assume the nurgle and vulkite units could also be dealt with. 

[Luke1705]

One thing I will say is that I don’t think the eternal Guard need the tides of death trait, in my list at least.

One thing we should talk about is how to really utilize that ability. I’d love some stormcast eternals on draconians benefiting from tides of death. Too bad allies max at 400, which means that only 2 draconian riders could exist

[Austin]

14 minutes ago, mmimzie said:

what are the battalions. do you ahve a link to that information???

Towards the end of the GMG video he goes over the battalions and the points in one go.  It is after he goes over the points costs for everything else.