Sception Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Again, I want to stress, most opponents are not going to be able to both stomp on your gravesites before you can get to them AND make you go first in the first round to try for that double turn. the result is a difficult, lose-lose choice, and an opponent who makes you go first in turn one, then loses the role for that double turn right after is going to be in a tough place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Morghasts are only battleline in Grand Host with Nagash as general. They are no so for the other 3 legions or the Mortarchs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smucreo Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Man if he had a way to buff the +1 to hit of our non hero units there are so many of them that would deal ludicrous amounts of mw... I guess that's why we don't have any haha welp at least our heroes do have ways to buff themselves and there are artifacts. Last game I played I ran a VloZD with merciless hunter (re roll 1s to wound) + vial of pure blood. It got super crazy, he ended up killing like three units in two turns (admittedly one was a unit of Blue Horrors haha) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 +1 to hit would be absolutely bonkers with the new Terrorgheist and his super (not) mortal wounds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 32 minutes ago, AverageBoss said: Morghasts are only battleline in Grand Host with Nagash as general. They are no so for the other 3 legions or the Mortarchs. Beh, you can play the deathlords that there are. If you only wnat to play Deathlords at all ok,and you still have the option though. Anyway you can't deny that the legions are Mortarchs tailored. And Morghasts perfectly bend in them. You only need to buy some zombie or similar battlelines to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, AverageBoss said: +1 to hit would be absolutely bonkers with the new Terrorgheist and his super (not) mortal wounds. New.... decreased power FEC version^^ decreased cause it doesn't heal like the FEC one Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, deynon said: New.... decreased power FEC version^^ decreased cause it doesn't heal like the FEC one The FEC one also does not heal without a rider... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, AverageBoss said: The FEC one also does not heal without a rider... They heal if near an Abhorrant ghoul king keyword model. The LoN ones they don't heal at all (spels apart) ... and ok, the artifact form GA:D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 Just now, deynon said: They heal if near an Abhorrant ghoul king keyword model. The LoN ones they don't heal at all (spels apart) ... and ok, the artifact form GA:D So you are comparing 420 points to 300 points and expecting the 300 points to be better in every way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, AverageBoss said: So you are comparing 420 points to 300 points and expecting the 300 points to be better in every way? Why 420 points? The FEC terrorgheist cost 300 points points too and the TG oZD is 400, not 420. If you are adding also the Abhorrant ghoul king... why don't you do the same when you talk about healing the units of skeletons and so on using the Deahtly invocations? They are the same model, simply the other one has the option to heal close to a model, the LoN not...you have to use a spell to be able to the same on LoN one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richelieu Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 53 minutes ago, Sception said: Again, I want to stress, most opponents are not going to be able to both stomp on your gravesites before you can get to them AND make you go first in the first round to try for that double turn. the result is a difficult, lose-lose choice, and an opponent who makes you go first in turn one, then loses the role for that double turn right after is going to be in a tough place. Yeah, I frequently see people ignore the fact that their opponents have to make trade offs, just like you. It's just not realistic to point out worst case scenario after worst case scenario, and complain that you have no way of dealing with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 20 minutes ago, deynon said: Why 420 points? The FEC terrorgheist cost 300 points points too and the TG oZD is 400, not 420. If you are adding also the Abhorrant ghoul king... why don't you do the same when you talk about healing the units of skeletons and so on using the Deahtly invocations? They are the same model, simply the other one has the option to heal close to a model, the LoN not...you have to use a spell to be able to the same on LoN one. Because I was talking about a TG on its own, and then you said the FEC one is better because it can be healed. That costs 100-120 more points than a TG on its own. But if we are talking all possibilities. Legions TG is better overall. It does not have access to healing like FEC does, but is does have: A much more potent scream due to the plethora of bravery lowering traits and abilities we have (by my count up to -4, -5 if playing LoB/LoN). A stronger bite that bypasses mortal wound defense. Access to a wider scope of support abilities including: extra attacks, rerolls to hit, extra movement, reroll charges, ambush, reroll wound and save rolls, etc. And while he can be auto healed up to D3 wounds a turn by a Ghoul King within 5" (or on top), the Legions Terrorghiest can be healed D3 (or 2D3) from up to 18" away via Vile Transference. 26" with Arkhans CA (available to any LoS general via Bound to the Master). 30" with a Balewind. 36" with both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 15 minutes ago, AverageBoss said: Because I was talking about a TG on its own, and then you said the FEC one is better because it can be healed. That costs 100-120 more points than a TG on its own. But if we are talking all possibilities. Legions TG is better overall. It does not have access to healing like FEC does, but is does have: A much more potent scream due to the plethora of bravery lowering traits and abilities we have (by my count up to -4, -5 if playing LoB/LoN). A stronger bite that bypasses mortal wound defense. Access to a wider scope of support abilities including: extra attacks, rerolls to hit, extra movement, reroll charges, ambush, reroll wound and save rolls, etc. And while he can be auto healed up to D3 wounds a turn by a Ghoul King within 5" (or on top), the Legions Terrorghiest can be healed D3 (or 2D3) from up to 18" away via Vile Transference. 26" with Arkhans CA (available to any LoS general via Bound to the Master). 30" with a Balewind. 36" with both. I only said that TG against FEC TG has fewer rules (and it's true). You talked abouot adding the model. Anywya if you want to play in such a way to play with the TG with spells you have to add also the cost of the wizards to to it, addind the balewind, adding for each speel the models to use the casting... so you have to use quite a lot of points to do waht you say. So avoid to try this game of fake comparatives. At least if you want to do such a game, make it fair using for both the same process. Not only on a part to try to be right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 26 minutes ago, Richelieu said: Yeah, I frequently see people ignore the fact that their opponents have to make trade offs, just like you. It's just not realistic to point out worst case scenario after worst case scenario, and complain that you have no way of dealing with it. If you play the best scenario each time is equally worrse. With simulating the worst scenarios you can now the problems of your army and prevent it. If everything is smooth is not such. And the you have to consider your throwing dice... and mine usally is scaring low^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 2 minutes ago, deynon said: I only said that TG against FEC TG has fewer rules (and it's true). You talked abouot adding the model. Anywya if you want to play in such a way to play with the TG with spells you have to add also the cost of the wizards to to it, addind the balewind, adding for each speel the models to use the casting... so you have to use quite a lot of points to do waht you say. So avoid to try this game of fake comparatives. At least if you want to do such a game, make it fair using for both the same process. Not only on a part to try to be right Lets see 49 minutes ago, deynon said: New.... decreased power FEC version^^ decreased cause it doesn't heal like the FEC one You flat out say it is worse because it does not heal while the FEC one does. But the healing on the FEC TG only happens at additional cost, not in a vacuum. So you brought it up, not me. Completely on their own, a Legions TG is better (because neither heals and Legions has a slightly better bite). Further, given the tools available to them, in a full list a Legions TG is better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 The rule is ths, ere FEC TG has it. TG not has it. So it doen't heal like the other one. You added the cost of the Abhorrant ghoul king to the GEC TG, but not the cost of the wizards to cast the spells that you talked aobut. So you threw some points around but applied only to one side, not to the other side. It's like trying to create rules to break themselves as you like. You want to use the FAQ about Skarbrand to use the Maws? Ok. I give you the gain to the TG for the bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 1 minute ago, deynon said: The rule is ths, ere FEC TG has it. TG not has it. So it doen't heal like the other one. You added the cost of the Abhorrant ghoul king to the GEC TG, but not the cost of the wizards to cast the spells that you talked aobut. So you threw some points around but applied only to one side, not to the other side. It's like trying to create rules to break themselves as you like. You want to use the FAQ about Skarbrand to use the Maws? Ok. I give you the gain to the TG for the bite. Skaarbrand is different and has nothing to do with the new TG. Skaarbrand just makes you take 8 damage that you cannot negate in any way, shape or form (bypasses deathless minions, phoenix guard save, everything. FEC TG inflicts 6 mortal wounds. Pretty Straight forward. Legions TG just deals 6 damage, and says "do not make save rolls". So its a bit odd in that it bypasses regular saves, but is not mortal wounds. Because of this things that specifically save against mortal wounds (Chaos Rune Shields, Nagash/Morghast armor, etc) don't kick in. Stuff like Deathless Minions and Phoenix Guard save still work though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deynon Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 31 minutes ago, AverageBoss said: Skaarbrand is different and has nothing to do with the new TG. Skaarbrand just makes you take 8 damage that you cannot negate in any way, shape or form (bypasses deathless minions, phoenix guard save, everything. FEC TG inflicts 6 mortal wounds. Pretty Straight forward. Legions TG just deals 6 damage, and says "do not make save rolls". So its a bit odd in that it bypasses regular saves, but is not mortal wounds. Because of this things that specifically save against mortal wounds (Chaos Rune Shields, Nagash/Morghast armor, etc) don't kick in. Stuff like Deathless Minions and Phoenix Guard save still work though. True. It's quite different in that way. I don't think to remember a precedent of such description. Or has it been used before for other units? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stratigo Posted February 28, 2018 Share Posted February 28, 2018 10 hours ago, alexmcgee123 said: KO can still shoot either off in 1 turn! They can. But that won't matter. Once KO alpha, they're screwed, all their stuff is vulnerable, and skeletons outclass every unit in the KO range to a significant margin. To kill an Arkhan (much less Nagash) you will have to sacrifice an important unit the vast majority of the time unless your dice are VERY hot. Like blazingly. Arkhan will be sitting on a 3 up 6 up (in his formation, which he will use). It takes a lot of skyhook shots to kill him, and those are the only thing with extreme range to use against him. So, I kill Arkhan, but have left a unit of riggers, or my iron clad vulnerable and they die, 90 percent, next turn. I have made not very much (or any) points. When Kharadrons alpha you, you haven't lost. Relax. Keep playing. Kharadrons are a remarkably fragile army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NinjaDetective Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 What are people opinions of death at lower points values than 2000? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuneBrush Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 hours ago, NinjaDetective said: What are people opinions of death at lower points values than 2000? I've played 1500 recently and think they're pretty solid. I've theorycrafted some 1k lists and think they're equally viable (especially when on a 4x4 board), but you do have a lot less options available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killax Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 3 hours ago, NinjaDetective said: What are people opinions of death at lower points values than 2000? My opinion on any game with lower point values then 2000 is that ideally they are abscent of Allegiance abilities altogether. At 1500 things become a bit more of discussion but I've generally found that Games Workshop's Matched Play Pitched Battle Point costs seem to be based on a 2000 point army format. E.g. It does become a bit silly when you play Legion of Night and have your whole army in Ambush. Or try to play Nurgle at 500 points and either get choked by the costs attached to units or fill the field with Ferulent Gnarlmaws... There are a lot of things that become wonky from a balance perspective at 500 or 1000 points when you factor in the current bonusses available to all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shadowseercB Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 I've played over 13+ games in the new battletome while using the Legion of Blood and Legion of Night rules. Myself and my friends have discussed its competitive potential. We are really strong verses other melee armies and struggle vs shooting. None of us can come up a list of how to beat some shooting lists like one with Karadon Overlords that uses the malign portents new order warlord, lord ordinator, as general. (Gives their ships +1 to hit and allows one ship to fire again). I took 4 Hq's and 3 were dead in one turn including a VLoZD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arael_Greywings Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 2 minutes ago, shadowseercB said: I've played over 1+ games in the new battletome. Myself and my friends have discussed its competitive potential. We are really strong verses other melee armies and struggle vs shooting. None of us can come up a list of how to beat some shooting lists like one with Karadon Overlords that uses the malign portents new order warlord, lord ordinator, as general. (Gives their ships +1 to hit and allows one ship to fire again). I took 4 Hq's and 3 were dead in one turn including a VLoZD. Legion of Sacrament has 2 Artifacts against shooting. Best Case you can get one hero with "-2" hit on shooting. And Bat Swarms also Buff -1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted March 1, 2018 Share Posted March 1, 2018 i havent played it much but i feel the lists ive come up with will do well, they have enough units to fulfil most roles/ do more than one always going to struggle against shooting but thats every melee armies problem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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