themortalgod Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 So just got Legions of Nagash and reading through it I immediately started to notice the sheer volume of casting power and resilience Sacrament can have so I started toying with some list ideas. 1x Arkhan - 320pts - General, Soul Harvest 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Shroud of Darkness, Fading Vigour 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Azyrbine Standard, Spectral Grasp 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Overwhelming Dread 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Spirit Gale 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Amaranthine Orb 1x Mortis Engine - 180pts 1x Corpse Cart with Brazier - 80ps 60x Zombies - 320pts 20x Skeletons - 160pts - Spears 10x Sekeletons - 80pts - Swords 6x Fel Bats - 160pts Lords of Sacrament - 70pts Total - 1980pts So as mentioned this list gets a bit nuts. The goal is to move all the heroes forward with a giant zombie bubble wrap. Arkhan is at +5 to cast, necromancers are at +3 to cast, and all the others are at +2 to cast. (+1 for allegiance ability, +1 for Corpse Cart, +1 for mortis engine). The chance to double cast makes things magnificently scary. Meanwhile, I can layer just a ridiculous amount of defensive capability with the spells that will make the whole little death star incredibly difficult to kill. Early game I can use Arkhan's command ability to make the spells longer range then when no longer needed inspiring presence on the zombies. The Fel bats will either be in a single big unit or two smaller units. Their goal will be to bring mobility to an otherwise very slow army. Thoughts? Am I missing anything obvious? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GonnaWorkForFood Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 i tend to find blocks of 20 or 30 skeletons pretty meh in regard to their cost. I would probably switch em for units of Dire wolves. They also would benefit from the corpse cart . What's more you don't have any way to deal with any troublesome opponents with a +2 save , anything with a ward save against mortals and you are pretty much done . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inflitionz Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 2 hours ago, themortalgod said: So just got Legions of Nagash and reading through it I immediately started to notice the sheer volume of casting power and resilience Sacrament can have so I started toying with some list ideas. 1x Arkhan - 320pts - General, Soul Harvest 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Shroud of Darkness, Fading Vigour 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Azyrbine Standard, Spectral Grasp 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Overwhelming Dread 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Spirit Gale 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Amaranthine Orb 1x Mortis Engine - 180pts 1x Corpse Cart with Brazier - 80ps 60x Zombies - 320pts 20x Skeletons - 160pts - Spears 10x Sekeletons - 80pts - Swords 6x Fel Bats - 160pts Lords of Sacrament - 70pts Total - 1980pts So as mentioned this list gets a bit nuts. The goal is to move all the heroes forward with a giant zombie bubble wrap. Arkhan is at +5 to cast, necromancers are at +3 to cast, and all the others are at +2 to cast. (+1 for allegiance ability, +1 for Corpse Cart, +1 for mortis engine). The chance to double cast makes things magnificently scary. Meanwhile, I can layer just a ridiculous amount of defensive capability with the spells that will make the whole little death star incredibly difficult to kill. Early game I can use Arkhan's command ability to make the spells longer range then when no longer needed inspiring presence on the zombies. The Fel bats will either be in a single big unit or two smaller units. Their goal will be to bring mobility to an otherwise very slow army. Thoughts? Am I missing anything obvious? its an unmodified roll of 9 btw so no bonus helps but you might get lucky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
choocheelo Posted February 10, 2018 Share Posted February 10, 2018 LeadersVampire Lord (140)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)Battleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Blades10 x Black Knights (240)- Deathrattle Battleline10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades5 x Dire Wolves (60)BehemothsMortis Engine (180)SceneryBalewind Vortex (100)Total: 1730 / 2000Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 123 =) or this LeadersVampire Lord (140)Vampire Lord (140)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)Battleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Ancient Blades10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades5 x Dire Wolves (60)Units1 x Corpse Cart (80)BehemothsMortis Engine (180)SceneryBalewind Vortex (100)Total: 1710 / 2000Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 114 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 10, 2018 Author Share Posted February 10, 2018 2 hours ago, GonnaWorkForFood said: i tend to find blocks of 20 or 30 skeletons pretty meh in regard to their cost. I would probably switch em for units of Dire wolves. They also would benefit from the corpse cart . What's more you don't have any way to deal with any troublesome opponents with a +2 save , anything with a ward save against mortals and you are pretty much done . I wouldn't say pretty much done, most wards vs mortals re like 6+ or 5+. That isn't exactly reliable. The army certainly doesn't do a ton of damage though, its more about zone control and surviving. Interesting about dire wolves. I did consider them but figured I could get more mileage out of skeletons thanks to the banner. I'm wondeirng if it might be better to drop the bats and just take two min sized dire wolves units to fill battle line. That puts me at 1700 leaving which I could then use to turn one of the vampires into a Vamp Lord on Dragon. updated list: 1 Arkhan the Black General, Soul Harvest 1 Necromancer Shroud of Darkness, Fading vigour 1 Necromancer Spectral Grasp 1 Vampire Lord Spirit Gale 1 Necromancer Overwhelming Dread 1 Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon Amaranthine Orb, Azyrbane Standard 1 Corpse Cart with Brazier 1 Mortis Engine 60 Zombies 5 Dire Wolves 5 Dire Wolves 55 minutes ago, inflitionz said: its an unmodified roll of 9 btw so no bonus helps but you might get lucky Of course, but almost guaranteed casts with a 28% chance to double cast s pretty good when you are casting 7 or 8 spells per turn thats usually a couple double casts per turn on average. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ogmaadn Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 What about this? LeadersWight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)Battleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Spears & shields10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades & shields10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades & shields 10 x Black Knights (240)20 x Grave Guard (320)- Great Wight BladesUnits1 x Corpse Cart (80)BehemothsMortis Engine (180)BattalionLords of Sacrament (70)Total: 1990 / 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 9 minutes ago, ogmaadn said: What about this? LeadersWight King with Baleful Tomb Blade (120)Necromancer (110)Necromancer (110)Arkhan The Black Mortarch of Sacrament (320)Battleline40 x Skeleton Warriors (280)- Spears & shields10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades & shields10 x Skeleton Warriors (80)- Ancient Blades & shields Units1 x Corpse Cart (80)BehemothsMortis Engine (180)SceneryBalewind Vortex (100)Total: 1710 / 2000Allies: 0 / 400 Personally, not really a fan, it sacrifices about half the defensive capability and half the casting potential for slightly better troops. Maybe I'm missing something? Also why the Wight King? He doesn't bring much for his pts cost. 20pts more you get a vampire who hits harder, heals, and is a wizard. Also imo Balewind just isn't worth the points, its good against melee armies but I find my caster is dead super fast whenever I jump up onto one since everyone can now easily see him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AverageBoss Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 48 minutes ago, themortalgod said: On a side note, are we still allowed to take units in the old book that aren't in the new book? (aka Zombie Dragon without a rider?) Zombie Dragon without rider is in the book for 300 points. All the zombie dragons have now been upgraded to match the FEC version (extra attack on maw and talons, and 3+ to hit and rend -3 on breath attack). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadly Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 My only question is, what wil actually be out there, fighting and causing Damage? The problem with magic heavy lists like this, especially in Death, is that you lack offensive punch. You get 1 hero phase worth of casting, and than, you have to wait until that comes again to accomplish anything. My suggestion is to add more punch to the list by dropping the 3rd Necromancer, and giving the Banner to a Vampire lord, or swapping it out for the bracelets and give them to a vampire. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 1 hour ago, Undeadly said: My only question is, what wil actually be out there, fighting and causing Damage? The problem with magic heavy lists like this, especially in Death, is that you lack offensive punch. You get 1 hero phase worth of casting, and than, you have to wait until that comes again to accomplish anything. My suggestion is to add more punch to the list by dropping the 3rd Necromancer, and giving the Banner to a Vampire lord, or swapping it out for the bracelets and give them to a vampire. To a degree, yeah, I'd agree, see the updated list above where I made points for a dragon rider to be the hammer. Perhaps even taking it a step further and doing a second riderless zombie dragon, not sure what I'd drop to do it though. Then it would basically be super hard to kill monster mash sort of list. Here is another alternative that also brings in some spirit hosts for some more mortal wound output. 1 Arkhan the Black General, Soul Harvest 1 Necromancer Shroud of Darkness, Fading vigour 1 Necromancer Spectral Grasp 1 Necromancer Overwhelming Dread 1 Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon Amaranthine Orb, Azyrbane Standard 1 Corpse Cart with Brazier 1 Mortis Engine 60 Zombies 5 Dire Wolves 5 Dire Wolves 3 Spirit Hosts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burf Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 8 hours ago, themortalgod said: So just got Legions of Nagash and reading through it I immediately started to notice the sheer volume of casting power and resilience Sacrament can have so I started toying with some list ideas. 1x Arkhan - 320pts - General, Soul Harvest 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Shroud of Darkness, Fading Vigour 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Azyrbine Standard, Spectral Grasp 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Overwhelming Dread 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Spirit Gale 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Amaranthine Orb 1x Mortis Engine - 180pts 1x Corpse Cart with Brazier - 80ps 60x Zombies - 320pts 20x Skeletons - 160pts - Spears 10x Sekeletons - 80pts - Swords 6x Fel Bats - 160pts Lords of Sacrament - 70pts Total - 1980pts So as mentioned this list gets a bit nuts. The goal is to move all the heroes forward with a giant zombie bubble wrap. Arkhan is at +5 to cast, necromancers are at +3 to cast, and all the others are at +2 to cast. (+1 for allegiance ability, +1 for Corpse Cart, +1 for mortis engine). The chance to double cast makes things magnificently scary. Meanwhile, I can layer just a ridiculous amount of defensive capability with the spells that will make the whole little death star incredibly difficult to kill. Early game I can use Arkhan's command ability to make the spells longer range then when no longer needed inspiring presence on the zombies. The Fel bats will either be in a single big unit or two smaller units. Their goal will be to bring mobility to an otherwise very slow army. Thoughts? Am I missing anything obvious? If your opponent has any significant shooting you're going to be losing vampire lords, necromancers and even Arkhan THROUGH their bonuses. The vamp lords are especially vulnerable. While you have amazing debuffing potential, if the Vamp with amaranthine and Arkhan go down, you may well not kill another model for the rest of the game. Finally, without a balewind you are TERRIFYINGLY vulnerable to a turn 1-2 double turn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Im personally a fan of Harbingers with Halberds as a hammer unit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 2 hours ago, Burf said: If your opponent has any significant shooting you're going to be losing vampire lords, necromancers and even Arkhan THROUGH their bonuses. The vamp lords are especially vulnerable. While you have amazing debuffing potential, if the Vamp with amaranthine and Arkhan go down, you may well not kill another model for the rest of the game. Finally, without a balewind you are TERRIFYINGLY vulnerable to a turn 1-2 double turn. Thats true of any undead army though. There is no way around that. Our hitting power is mostly in monsters/characters and sniping characters is easy. Though this army has more resilience against shooting than most, what scares me more is mortal wound spam from say a Tzeentch list where debuffing their hit and wound rolls doesn't do anything to stop them. Also what does the balewind do to help against a turn 1-2 double turn? The design of this army is for the wizards to move as a unit to maximize buffs, tossing someone up on a balewind means he can't keep up. Sure it buffs range but 100pts for some extra range isn't going to make much difference against a double turn (or much else), its not like these are wizards who are throwing crazy powerful damage spells where the balewind double range is massively powerful. Here is another build that would hit pretty hard. 1 Arkhan the Black General, Soul Harvest 1 Necromancer Shroud of Darkness, Fading vigour 1 Necromancer Ovewhelming Dread 1 Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon Amaranthine Orb, Azyrbane Standard 1 Corpse Cart with Brazier 1 Mortis Engine 40 Zombies 5 Dire Wolves 5 Dire Wolves 1 Terrorgheist Edit: Changed the riderless Zombie Dragon to a Terrorgheist as it seems in almost all situations a Terrorgheist is simply better for the same points. (Fanged Maw the same as Snapping Maw but has a 6+ hit effect making it better, 7 attacks at damage 2 better than 4 attacks at damage D3, better shooting attack (marginally), and has a death effect.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warhammernerd Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 All seems a bit to hero hammer for my liking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Undeadly Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 5 hours ago, warhammernerd said: All seems a bit to hero hammer for my liking. Welcome to Death; where the Hordes are nameless and the Heros are the stars of the show! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 3 hours ago, Undeadly said: Welcome to Death; where the Hordes are nameless and the Heros are the stars of the show! This, plus AoS has always been a hero hammer of sorts. The most powerful heroes in this game are way more impactful than any edition of fantasy was since like the 90s or even earlier. The idea that say Nagash leads a small warband with like 80 or 90 infantry is ridiculous, in fluff he would be at the helm tens of thousands of troops. But we don't care and an army of thousands isn't playable, Nagash is awesome and fun. Herohammer is fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HiveFleetCerberus Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 Wait, why are your necromancers getting two spells from the lores of the dead? Don't they only generate one extra spell? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 32 minutes ago, HiveFleetCerberus said: Wait, why are your necromancers getting two spells from the lores of the dead? Don't they only generate one extra spell? They aren't, the second things are items. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 6 hours ago, themortalgod said: This, plus AoS has always been a hero hammer of sorts. The most powerful heroes in this game are way more impactful than any edition of fantasy was since like the 90s or even earlier. The idea that say Nagash leads a small warband with like 80 or 90 infantry is ridiculous, in fluff he would be at the helm tens of thousands of troops. But we don't care and an army of thousands isn't playable, Nagash is awesome and fun. Herohammer is fun! Off topic but I don't know if I agree. Well..I definitely agree that hero hammer is the most fun . I think the best performing lists typically have key heroes performing mundane tasks (+1 to hit, teleporting other units, +1 to save) while the battle line blocks rack up combos and points. Heroes are too squishy or you have to do nonsense (like giant hero bubbles buffing heroes buffing heroes buffing heroes) to keep a key hero alive. (Double castellant around a stardrake with staunch defender and tempest lantern and a battle mage adding a save to the castellant with the lantern with a luminark behind being blocked by the stardrake......yada yada.." However....this is kinda just deaths 'take' on that. I personally would love to see a really competitive army based around heroes who use minimal unit support and just deathstar by themselves. Don't know if this is it, but it would certainly be fun when it worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 18 minutes ago, Vextol said: Off topic but I don't know if I agree. Well..I definitely agree that hero hammer is the most fun . I think the best performing lists typically have key heroes performing mundane tasks (+1 to hit, teleporting other units, +1 to save) while the battle line blocks rack up combos and points. Heroes are too squishy or you have to do nonsense (like giant hero bubbles buffing heroes buffing heroes buffing heroes) to keep a key hero alive. (Double castellant around a stardrake with staunch defender and tempest lantern and a battle mage adding a save to the castellant with the lantern with a luminark behind being blocked by the stardrake......yada yada.." However....this is kinda just deaths 'take' on that. I personally would love to see a really competitive army based around heroes who use minimal unit support and just deathstar by themselves. Don't know if this is it, but it would certainly be fun when it worked. Well, I didn't say mega heroes were optimal, but never before has warhammer seen a mega centrepiece monster/hero that is 25%-50% of a 2000pt game in almost every single army before. The game is certainly ver hero hammer focused these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vextol Posted February 11, 2018 Share Posted February 11, 2018 14 minutes ago, themortalgod said: Well, I didn't say mega heroes were optimal, but never before has warhammer seen a mega centrepiece monster/hero that is 25%-50% of a 2000pt game in almost every single army before. The game is certainly ver hero hammer focused these days. I suppose. Seems like we still see a lot of "little" stuff at the top though. Most lists (outside death) don't max out the hero slots. I'm sure this new battletomes will change that for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
themortalgod Posted February 11, 2018 Author Share Posted February 11, 2018 4 minutes ago, Vextol said: I suppose. Seems like we still see a lot of "little" stuff at the top though. Most lists (outside death) don't max out the hero slots. I'm sure this new battletomes will change that for a while. Yeah, certainly at a competitive level but I think GW generally intends for most casual players to be running something big. I remember back in the day when an opponent had a dragon rider on a 50mm base that was pretty cool, big mega heroes just weren't common. And the dragon rider really didn't do that much damage and was super vulnerable to combat resolution. Nothing like the heroes of AoS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nullius Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 On 2/10/2018 at 3:56 PM, themortalgod said: So just got Legions of Nagash and reading through it I immediately started to notice the sheer volume of casting power and resilience Sacrament can have so I started toying with some list ideas. 1x Arkhan - 320pts - General, Soul Harvest 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Shroud of Darkness, Fading Vigour 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Azyrbine Standard, Spectral Grasp 1x Necromancer - 110pts - Overwhelming Dread 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Spirit Gale 1x Vampire Lord - 140pts - Horse, Amaranthine Orb 1x Mortis Engine - 180pts 1x Corpse Cart with Brazier - 80ps 60x Zombies - 320pts 20x Skeletons - 160pts - Spears 10x Sekeletons - 80pts - Swords 6x Fel Bats - 160pts Lords of Sacrament - 70pts Total - 1980pts So as mentioned this list gets a bit nuts. The goal is to move all the heroes forward with a giant zombie bubble wrap. Arkhan is at +5 to cast, necromancers are at +3 to cast, and all the others are at +2 to cast. (+1 for allegiance ability, +1 for Corpse Cart, +1 for mortis engine). The chance to double cast makes things magnificently scary. Meanwhile, I can layer just a ridiculous amount of defensive capability with the spells that will make the whole little death star incredibly difficult to kill. Early game I can use Arkhan's command ability to make the spells longer range then when no longer needed inspiring presence on the zombies. The Fel bats will either be in a single big unit or two smaller units. Their goal will be to bring mobility to an otherwise very slow army. Thoughts? Am I missing anything obvious? Needs more cowbell. This makes a decent tar pit, but it will struggle to hurt anything. You need some offensive units. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malakithe Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 15 minutes ago, Nullius said: Needs more cowbell. This makes a decent tar pit, but it will struggle to hurt anything. You need some offensive units. I agree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tizianolol Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Unfortunatly the chance to doble cast is " not modificated" ( I don't know the English version of the book) so you need 9+ to doble effect , you can t count the +5:( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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