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Soup Dragon

GH2017 - Beastclaw Raiders Review & Discussion

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So the pictures of pages from the new Generals Handbook 2017 are out and about on the internet, and other factions are posting their thoughts, so I have created a thread for fellow Beastclaw Generals to chat about the effects the new stuff will have.

Below is the only photo I can find of Beastclaw rules. Sadly it misses off the "Notes" section which tells you about battleline, but never the less we can have a full discussion. If anyone finds a photo with the Notes section showing, then please post it on this thread.

MOD EDIT - Sorry Paul, no leaked GH screenshots please.

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These are my thoughts on the effects of GHB2017
 Firstly, the general Destruction traits and artefacts, the following is copied straight from Chris Tomlin's GHB Ironjaws thread:

"
Allegiance Abilities: Destruction 
Now before we get on to the really juicy party that is the Ironjawz abilities, I would be remiss to ignore the generic Destruction stuff and talk about where that is in GH2017. This will be a very quick rundown, just to tell you why (at an initial glance) we, as Ironjawz players, do not need to concern ourselves with pages 156-157 of this book...we're onto bigger and better things! 
Battle Trait - Rampaging Destroyers; I think we all saw a change coming here and I have to say that what GW have done is a pretty sleek simplification of what was a heavy dice rolling exercise. That's all well and good, but unfortunately the new rule is much less reliable as you only roll for Heroes and need to get a 6 (+2 for the General) to trigger an effect. If you do happen to roll that hallowed 6 (TBS dice are recommended) the abilities are nice for a selected unit; a 6" move, a pile in or a charge depending on the units proximity to the enemy. I always said that how good the Ironjawz abilities would be would also depend on the Destruction ones in turn; so with this change I think it's fair to say we'd be open to checking out something new. 
Next let's check out the Command Traits. Remember your General has to be a Hero to access one of these;

Nothing Left Standing; same as before, however it now doesn't remove special scenery rules.  
Might is Right; same as before, doesn't apply to mounts now. 
Wild Fury; this has been simplified. It's now a flat +1 to hit if you've suffered any wounds. Again this would not apply to mounts. 
Bellowing Tyrant; total change up here, this now grants +1 to run and charge rolls and you can use the General's Bravery for the selected unit. 6" range. 
Big and Brutish; unchanged. 
Ravager; now adds +1 to the Rampaging Destroyers roll. This means your General triggers it on a unit on a 4+. 
Funnily enough, even though there are lots of changes there I still think the two most used now (Bellowing Tyrant & Ravager) will remain top of the pile. I think Ravager would be my pick. 
 one last thing before we hit the Ironjawz abilities - the Artefacts of Destruction;

 Hammerblade; same as Meteoric Hammerblade 
Battered Talisman; the flavour text here seems to denote that this was once the Talisman of Protection, however it's now a dirt-encrusted remnant of its former glory. As such, it's now a 5+. 
Rockeye; a renamed Gem of Seeing. WFB Ogre Kingdoms players will enjoy the reference. 
Bellowing Blade; a renamed Blade of Vituperation. Call it what you want, you won't see it!
Collar of Domination; unchanged. 
Battle Brew; ahhh the big one! Remember when this artefact was fine...like before Frostlords were a thing. They ruined the bro juice for everyone. As suspected, this took a hit. One use only and inflicts D6 mortal wounds at the end of the turn. 
So like the Command Traits, the same two artefacts are likely to be the ones you see, even with a slight hit. Talisman and Battle Brew in this case. Rockeye now has a place though to be honest and could well overtake Battle Brew. Has a nice inbuilt anti-Frostlord effect with the range as well. 

"

I think that the Destruction traits and artefacts are still slightly better than the pure Beastclaw ones, but now there is nowhere near as great a gulf between them and I am sure we will see plenty of pure Beastclaw Allegiance armies - I for one will be running it for a while.

Unit Points

I think GW have done a pretty good job on the points. Thundertusks needed to go up a small amount - and they have. I am very happy that Stonehorns remain unchanged - it was the Battlebrew that made them stupidly good and that has gone for all intents and purposes.
Frost sabres at 40 points for 2 is also very welcome - makes them worth taking as points fillers.
The drop to 160 for Mournfang is the most welcome change though I think. They are suddenly much more useful, and give us an 'affordable' battleline unit.

Dropping the Hunter to 140 is good, though when compared to many other heroes (Stormcasts with 3+ save, 5 wounds and multiple abilities) he could justifiably have been dropped to 120.

Battalions

All Battalions in all armies have gone up. This is obviously a GW theme this time around. Swings and roundabouts for us though:

Alfrostun - never taken anyway

Braggoths Beast Hammer - minimum cost was 1380. Minimum cost now 1320, so 60 points cheaper!

Eurlbad - minimum cost was 1200. New minimum cost is 1220, so 20 points more, but if you take any more Mournfang, you making a saving

Jorlbad - minimum cost was 1160, new cost is 1180 i.e. along lines of Eurlbad

Olwyr Alfrostrostun - old cost minimum 1940, new cost 2080 - so can't be taken in normal tournaments

Skal - old cost was 340, and now is 330. I have seen a few of these run at tournaments with more Frost Sabres, and if doing this, then there is a substantial points saving.

Svard Alfrostun - old minimum 1900, new minimum 1980, so 80 points more for this

Torrbad - old cost 1360, new cost 1620 - a big hike in cost!

Allies

Allying with all the other Ogor factions makes perfect thematic sense and gives us plenty of extra options. Three useful things that spring to mind are:

Butcher - will be nice to have some magic in the army, Mystic Shield is always useful

Gorger - A nice cheap distraction to pop on behind enemy lines

Gutbuster Grots (Gnoblars) - 100 points for 20 bodies makes a nice chaff screen without having to break allegiance!

Battleline

No news on this yet. I wonder if your allies battleline will count towards your army battleline - 120 points for 3 Ogors would be our cheapest battleline option and could be very handy to slot in when points are tight.

So those are my initial thoughts. Feel free to express your constructive critiques.

 

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There was a bigger picture about beastclaws as well. Seemed to be no changes in battleline. 

Edited by Kessler
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nice sum up.

to answer your question regarding battleline: allied forces do not count toward min unit numbers (so no battleline) but to the maximum numbers (behemoth and hero limit).

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New GHB in general seems good for the Beastclaw. Point decrease/increase are all  on the mark IMO. Braggoth Beast Hammer for 260 points is... interesting. It was weird even with 160 points. But on a whole the battalion cost is less AND we can take it at 1500 point game! So all good.

Skal is much more tempting now: costs only 10 points less, but we can add much more Frostsabres now.

Butcher seems to be the best ally for Beastclaw (wonder if he can take Beastclaw artifact...?). All others are just close combat hitters, Beastclaw do it better anyway. On the other hand, snow covered gargant next to Thundertusks look really cool! But chance to give Mystic Shield or +1 to hit to Ogor models is noteworthy. Butcher`s abilities have good range, so even his Movement 6" is okay.

1 hour ago, Soup Dragon said:

I think that the Destruction traits and artefacts are still slightly better than the pure Beastclaw ones, but now there is nowhere near as great a gulf between them and I am sure we will see plenty of pure Beastclaw Allegiance armies - I for one will be running it for a while.

 

To me the Destruction abilities seem to be totally pointless now. Cannot see why I would take them instead of Beastclaw ones. There is no single trait or artifact I see any reasonable use. Good for Beastclaw, but not for my Gutbusters :).

 

Edited by Kessler
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1 hour ago, Kessler said:

There was a bigger picture about beastclaws as well. Seemed to be no changes in battleline. 

Hope that's the case for the Beastriders, though a pity Yhettees not more useful

Any chance you could find that picture again and post it here Kessler? It would be very much appreciated. Thanks

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The book hasnt come out yet, but I am already starting to throw down some theoretical lists out on paper.

 

My first draft:

Frostlord on Stonehorn (with a magical item - maybe Blade of Frost? Open to suggestions here).

Hunter (General) - Famed hunter

2 Huskards on thundertusks

2 x 2 Frost sabres (battleline due to Hunter general)

Unit of Mournfang 

6 Ironguts (allies)

 

Comes in at 2000 points.

Any comments welcome

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Surely I can't be alone on the Stonehusk/Mournfang hype train? I've been thinking something like this;

Huskard on Stonehorn
Hunter
2x4 Mournfangs, full command'
Thundertusk Beastriders
3x3 Yhetees
3x2 Frost Sabres


Total of 2000 points. Hardly world-breaking, but a fun alternative to the cookie-cutter lists.

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A thing that occurred to me today, is that with Frost Sabres only being 40 points, and assuming the "Frost Sabres are Battleline if Hunter is your General", you can make a Hunter your General and take 3 x 2 Sabres as battleline. That's a hero and your Battleline requirement fulfilled for just 260 points! Now that IS something to think about.

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12 hours ago, Soup Dragon said:

A thing that occurred to me today, is that with Frost Sabres only being 40 points, and assuming the "Frost Sabres are Battleline if Hunter is your General", you can make a Hunter your General and take 3 x 2 Sabres as battleline. That's a hero and your Battleline requirement fulfilled for just 260 points! Now that IS something to think about.

Can you then fit in 4 of the 'big guys?' with the new points?

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20 hours ago, heywoah_twitch said:

I really like tokens of everwinter.

Its a strong artefact. Think I would get worried about using it at "the best time".

 

2 hours ago, 13on2D6 said:

Can you then fit in 4 of the 'big guys?' with the new points?

*Removed costs as per forum rules*

There is now no difference between Stonehorns and thundertusks.

Looking at the leaked points it is possible to take 3(!!!!!) Frostlords and a Beastrider

Or 4 Huskards and then have 120 points left over for something else.

Edited by Caffran101
removed costs
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I am quite impressed by the 20% price drop of the Mournfangs.

With the removal or the old rampaging destroyer and the upgraded costs of all bataillons, it seems that the humble Jorlbad may find its place in our hearts.

A jorlbad with 8 mournfangs is 1500 points, simply add a frostlord and a pair of hounds and you have your 3drop army with 3 stonehorns. Bungeee!

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FAQ is up, and the Stonehorn survivability took a MASSIVE hit;

BEASTCLAW RAIDERS
Pages 108, 110 and 112 – Frostlord on Stonehorn, Huskard on Stonehorn and Stonehorn Beastriders,
Stone Skeleton Change to: ‘Stone Skeleton: Halve the Damage characteristic (rounding up) of weapons that target this model. In addition, halve the number of mortal wounds this model suffers from a spell or ability (rounding up).’


Or in other words, swarming it with damage 1 weapons destroys it utterly now. Daemonettes just became it's worst enemy.

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If only stonehorn could halve the damage of FAQ Nerfs :( Let's not overreact, but I legitimately wonder if they're worth the points now.

Oh, wow it's weapons not even models, and most heroes have a few plus a mount. Devastating. I'll let you guys know how it runs, I'll be playing a few games tomorrow.

Edited by heywoah_twitch

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2 hours ago, Payce said:

FAQ is up, and the Stonehorn survivability took a MASSIVE hit;

BEASTCLAW RAIDERS
Pages 108, 110 and 112 – Frostlord on Stonehorn, Huskard on Stonehorn and Stonehorn Beastriders,
Stone Skeleton Change to: ‘Stone Skeleton: Halve the Damage characteristic (rounding up) of weapons that target this model. In addition, halve the number of mortal wounds this model suffers from a spell or ability (rounding up).’


Or in other words, swarming it with damage 1 weapons destroys it utterly now. Daemonettes just became it's worst enemy.

I always thought this was the intention of how it was written anyhow. Since it specified damage and not wounds. 

Glad they cleared it up but it is a big nerf.

But yeah daemonettes are dancing provocatively gleefully in preparation. 

Edited by MaxPounder
Spelling
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Eh, Ogors and now beastclaw really got hit with GHB2017. More bonuses to horde armies, high model count centered battleplans, loss of decent allegiance abilties, artifacts and now that. 

I don't mind the nerf, I almost never play competitively anyway, but ogors are more boring to play: gutbusters are now just boring dice rollers with no interesting abilities and Stonehorn is just an average monster. I really prefer high points and interesting rules.

/End of rant. After few games probably don't remember the old rules anyway :) /

Aside from that, I wonder how can we halve damage characteristic D3?

Edited by Kessler

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Yeah, the new FAQ seems to make Stonehorns look much less attractive for the points. I guess we will see how it pans out, but I think we are likely to see far fewer of them sadly. I will run them and see how it actually goes before posting anything definitive. But my initial feeling is that the plethora of massed 1 wound attacks (anything with arrows, most 1 wound battleline etc) are just gonna tear them to pieces now and make them an expensive frippery. Beastclaw faction have an uphill battle in most scenarios due to lack of numbers, and the resilience of the stonehorns was a good way of holding objectives to counterbalance this. They still hit well on the charge (even without battlebrew) so they are not totally nerfed. I feel that Stonehorns in a Beastclaw army are OK (No-one has come anywhere near a podium with Beastclaw in a serious tournament - even Russ Veal couldn't make top 10 when he used them!), the problem is when they are combined as MooClan or StoneRukk.

Anyway we use RAW so need to get stuck in with new points and rules and find out what works. I have my last GHB1 tournament tomorrow - I'm running 4 Stonehorns!! (No, I really am!)

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1 hour ago, Kessler said:

Aside from that, I wonder how can we halve damage characteristic D3?

It's halved after you roll, so 1-2 = 1, 3-4 = 1, 5-6 = 2.

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Halve wounds caused by abilities though, so things like bloodletters and skyfires mortal wounds will be added up and halved still. Stonehorn actually gets better the more +to hits bloodletters have!

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17 hours ago, Payce said:

FAQ is up, and the Stonehorn survivability took a MASSIVE hit;

BEASTCLAW RAIDERS
Pages 108, 110 and 112 – Frostlord on Stonehorn, Huskard on Stonehorn and Stonehorn Beastriders,
Stone Skeleton Change to: ‘Stone Skeleton: Halve the Damage characteristic (rounding up) of weapons that target this model. In addition, halve the number of mortal wounds this model suffers from a spell or ability (rounding up).’


Or in other words, swarming it with damage 1 weapons destroys it utterly now. Daemonettes just became it's worst enemy.

I am honestly very frustrated now. Who agreed to all those huge nerfs at GW? Now I also think that GW doesn't even care about Ogor armys in any way. I guess I should start buying a whole Ironjawz force by now. I think Stonehorns are now very overcoasted. Why even bother giving the Stonehorn this extra ability at all?

Sorry for the rant, but I am honestly really frustrated about the changes. And I don't know what's the logic behind the changes. For me it seems like they just listened to all the complaints about Stonehorns and nerfed them completely just because there were a lot of complaints. But instead of making fair and reasonable changes, they just nerfed everything to the ground.

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Halve wounds caused by abilities though, so things like bloodletters and skyfires mortal wounds will be added up and halved still. Stonehorn actually gets better the more +to hits bloodletters have!

 

The rule actually appears to be functionally the same, it is just clarifying that Mortal wounds from Abilities and spells are also halved. Each hit is an individual hit. And is halved, just like normal damage.

 

“Decapitating Blow: If the hit roll for a Hellblade is 6 or more, that blow inflicts a mortal wound instead of its normal damage."

 

So, the damage isn't totaled in advance and then halved. Each blow is still an individual hit from a single use of an ability.

 

Basically it is a clarification due to the change in Mortal Wounds not exactly being "damage" they're a special kind of damage. Which is why you can't use Destiny Dice to roll for mortal wounds.

 

Now, against Bloodthirsters or Skulltaker where they are doing 3 damage or D3 mortal wounds... then the halving is useful for hits that do multiple mortal wounds on the hit (2 or more mortal wounds).

 

(Unless there is another FAQ that we've missed...)

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