Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[SuperKick]

4 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I have played several ultra competitive games against strong opponents (Maggotkin, Mixed Order with 3-4 Pheonixes, Changehost, Sylvaneth, SCE) with different builds. Will be playing against LoN on Wednesday. I posted reports in this thread with full lists. But right now it's safe to say that :

Slaughter Queen Cauldron, HagQueens on foot, Witches(min 30), 1-2 Heartrenders units are safe bet for any comeptitive list.

Thanks for the guidance, will take a look at your reports!

[syph0n]

I'm already eyeing up a little 1k list. I really wanted to save for the Idoneth Deepkin, but thematically I think the Medusa and Scourge Privateers fit the theme of my existing Order Serpentis units, who have Medusa shields, Serpents and Krakens. I've wanted a Medusa to try because the model looks so cool and I just think is cooler than the Sorceress, so this isn't too bad a way to dip my toes. 

So, Temple Nest (Khailebron) - 

1k we're looking at:

• Medusa (General)
• Slaughter Queen Cauldron
• 2x Blood Sisters
• Blood Stalkers
• Temple Nest Battalion

That weighs in at 990 and gives room to expand either allying in other units of my Aelves, or adding more sneks, Morathi. I guess the real question is do you bother spending so much on the Cauldron, but instead go for more sneks at 1k? Or have a Bloodwrack Shrine?

EDIT: Is it possible to magnetise between the options on the Cauldron?

[DioRa]

51 minutes ago, syph0n said:

I'm already eyeing up a little 1k list. I really wanted to save for the Idoneth Deepkin, but thematically I think the Medusa and Scourge Privateers fit the theme of my existing Order Serpentis units, who have Medusa shields, Serpents and Krakens. I've wanted a Medusa to try because the model looks so cool and I just think is cooler than the Sorceress, so this isn't too bad a way to dip my toes. 

So, Temple Nest (Khailebron) - 

1k we're looking at:

• Medusa (General)
• Slaughter Queen Cauldron
• 2x Blood Sisters
• Blood Stalkers
• Temple Nest Battalion

That weighs in at 990 and gives room to expand either allying in other units of my Aelves, or adding more sneks, Morathi. I guess the real question is do you bother spending so much on the Cauldron, but instead go for more sneks at 1k? Or have a Bloodwrack Shrine?

EDIT: Is it possible to magnetise between the options on the Cauldron?

Sadly that army is not possible. You need two units of blood stalkers with the Temple Nest battalion.

[DantePQ]

Temple nest is 2 units of Stalkers

I don't know about Temple Nest but Blood Stalkers are so bad compared to other options that I wouldn't bother with Temple Nest, also I believe that DoK needs one big unit - Witches, SoS, Blood Sisters to hammer enemy. 

I would go for Cauldron everytime,everywhere it's really swiss army knife type of unit - buffing your units, prayer, very good damage output, great ability ( Witchbrew or Slaughter Queen ability)

[syph0n]

Ahh, I think I read the Warscroll Builder and assumed that was Temple Nest. I see it's the Sisters that are Battleline because of the Medusa, so I must've assumed it was included in Temple Nest. I've got my stalkers and sisters mixed up 

So instead, dump TN, maintain the Cauldron and Medusa, 2x Sisters as Battleline. That leaves me 250 points, with which I could add a Balewind (is Medusa good on there, or is this such a target? The person I will play to start is seriously lacking in ranged however...) or add something else from the DoK range like Khinerai which again would still suit my Order Serpentis theme, or even ally in a Hydra or something daft.

I'm not a massively competitive person, I like the Stalkers (especially the one with the baby dragon) so I could always expand out from that point....

[FleetAdmiral]

Hey, I'm considering putting a DoK army together to play against my local gaming group, we're usually doing 2k point battles. 

I was wondering if you guys think this is a viable army list and looking for any feedback 

Alligeance - Daughters of Khaine

Temple - HaggNar

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron of Blood

-General

-Devoted Disciples

-Khainite Pendant

-Catechism of Murder

Hag Queen

- Iron Circlet

- Sacrament of Blood

Morathi - Mirror Dance

Bloodwrack Medusa - Mindrazor

30x Witch Aelves - Knives

20x Sisters of Slaughter - Knives

20x Sisters of Slaughter - Bucklers

5x Khinerai Heartrenders

5x Khinerai Heartrenders

Slaughter Troupe 

It's a total of 2000 points. I am considering dividing one group of SoS into two units.

 

[GammaMage]

@Twitch of Izalith He was not amused. I always take Shadow Stone as my artifact now, it helps a lot. I tried a few other ones, but even though I don't have a battalion yet, so I can only take 1 artifact, I've found that I'd rather have the +1 to casting Mindrazor (and rerolling ones!) than anything else. Mindrazor is brutal.

[DantePQ]

In competitve play Amulet of Dark Fire is much better then anything else, especially in HaggNar , I plan on using Slaughter Troupe in an army I'm playstesting now so I will take Shadow Stone on Bloodwrack Shrine anyway, but in HaggNar it's quite easy to shield Morathi so she can cast Mindrazor with +1bonus and extra range (which is kind of awesome)

[SugarMaple82]

Is the bloodwrack sisterhood still useable with the army? It doesn't seem the most useful, but would help to reduce drops drastically for my list. It requires a "death hag" which doesn't actually exist anymore, but the battalion still has points in the Azyr app

[GammaMage]

I'd be fine with replacing Death Hag with Hag Queen, but not sure that would fly with everyone.

[Richelieu]

1 hour ago, SugarMaple82 said:

Is the bloodwrack sisterhood still useable with the army? It doesn't seem the most useful, but would help to reduce drops drastically for my list. It requires a "death hag" which doesn't actually exist anymore, but the battalion still has points in the Azyr app

The battalion is now illegal as there is no longer a unit called "Death Hag."  I would have an issue with my opponent playing it since the battalion was not rebalanced for the massive rules update DoK received.

[DioRa]

So I played my first game today with a Temple nest list and an Allied Hydra against an Arkhan Black list. Lessons learned, arkhan black and his cronies really own the magic phase and mindrazor is simply useless against bravery 10 death...

Hydra or any allies for that matter are a waste of points with DoK, having more troops that benefit from Blood rites, or any of our other buffs is just points better spent. A shame cause I had a fun conversion in mind for the Hydra.

Blood stalkers are really a waste of point, it's such a heavy tax to invest 320 pts in 10 shots a turn. Rather spend those points on the Blood Sisters who are amazing...if they don't get debuffed to hell by Arkhan, but at least the temple nest ability still does wonders.

Now I played with Khailebron as my temple, but it doesn't do anything against death. And I did find that Hag Narr would be simply more superiour, sure I get more drops. But having blood sisters with a Cauldron just makes them so much more durable.

So the next list I'll be aiming at is the following, my opponent will most likely be an Arkhan list:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Artefact: Hagbrew 
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

Any thoughts?

Also on one hand I want to try the crazy idea of Khailebron, Morathi and 2 units of 10 Blood Stalker....I know it's counter productive, but looks like a fun unexpected surprise?

 

[BURF1]

32 minutes ago, DioRa said:

So I played my first game today with a Temple nest list and an Allied Hydra against an Arkhan Black list. Lessons learned, arkhan black and his cronies really own the magic phase and mindrazor is simply useless against bravery 10 death...

Hydra or any allies for that matter are a waste of points with DoK, having more troops that benefit from Blood rites, or any of our other buffs is just points better spent. A shame cause I had a fun conversion in mind for the Hydra.

Blood stalkers are really a waste of point, it's such a heavy tax to invest 320 pts in 10 shots a turn. Rather spend those points on the Blood Sisters who are amazing...if they don't get debuffed to hell by Arkhan, but at least the temple nest ability still does wonders.

Now I played with Khailebron as my temple, but it doesn't do anything against death. And I did find that Hag Narr would be simply more superiour, sure I get more drops. But having blood sisters with a Cauldron just makes them so much more durable.

So the next list I'll be aiming at is the following, my opponent will most likely be an Arkhan list:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
- Trait: Devoted Desciples 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Artefact: Hagbrew 
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder

Battleline
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
10 x Blood Sisters (280)
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)

Battalions
Temple Nest (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 119
 

Any thoughts?

Also on one hand I want to try the crazy idea of Khailebron, Morathi and 2 units of 10 Blood Stalker....I know it's counter productive, but looks like a fun unexpected surprise?

 

2 Hag cauldrons don't really synergize well. It's better to take 1(or a slaughter cauldron) and several foot hags. If you want to take 2 cauldrons than 1 should be a slaughter queen cauldron.

[Harioch]

Just a thought but against Death, if your opponent doesn't bring only Wolves and Black Knights, why do not trade Mindrazor for Pit of Shade ? Death has a strong Bravery but low Move speed so it could be worth it ?

I don't think Kailebron is meant to face Death. This -1 to hit takes place in the  Shooting phase and therefore is useless against Arkhan's forces. The Command trait is nice but Hagg Nar is clearly better here.

Also +1 for what BURF1 said, also Slaughter Queen can give you a nice 1 Dispel. 

[SuperKick]

Been doing some studying and got my 1st list in mind, just need to pick spells, artefacts etc. Thoughts 

Khaliebron 

Temple Nest 

X2 Medusa 

X2 Hag Queen 

X20 Blood Sisters

X10 Blood Sisters

X10 Blood Sisters 

X5 Blood Stalkers 

X5 Blood Stalkers 

X10 Heartrenders 

2k 

[DioRa]

13 minutes ago, Harioch said:

Just a thought but against Death, if your opponent doesn't bring only Wolves and Black Knights, why do not trade Mindrazor for Pit of Shade ? Death has a strong Bravery but low Move speed so it could be worth it ?

I don't think Kailebron is meant to face Death. This -1 to hit takes place in the  Shooting phase and therefore is useless against Arkhan's forces. The Command trait is nice but Hagg Nar is clearly better here.

Also +1 for what BURF1 said, also Slaughter Queen can give you a nice 1 Dispel. 

I know mindrazor is not great against Death, but I do try to build a list against most armies, rather than tool it against just death. Though with the Nagash book, there are way more tournament death players out there in the meta.

As for the double couldrons, it's more as a reason to have a way to do a double way attack across the board, rather than one central strong push. Also while our support characters are better on foot, they do become more vurnerable to getting sniped off first turn. Everyone being on a couldron or shrine, just gives that bit more longevity.

Though I do like an offensive Slaughterqueen on couldron with Hagbrew. Will try and tool a list to include her somehow.

[DantePQ]

Well

9 hours ago, DioRa said:

I know mindrazor is not great against Death, but I do try to build a list against most armies, rather than tool it against just death. Though with the Nagash book, there are way more tournament death players out there in the meta.

As for the double couldrons, it's more as a reason to have a way to do a double way attack across the board, rather than one central strong push. Also while our support characters are better on foot, they do become more vurnerable to getting sniped off first turn. Everyone being on a couldron or shrine, just gives that bit more longevity.

Though I do like an offensive Slaughterqueen on couldron with Hagbrew. Will try and tool a list to include her somehow.

I got your points but second Cauldron is a little bit of overkill, especially with only two priests in your army it wont be that obvious that you will be able to animate them both when needed.  Also sometimes it's easier to remove that big model then small model hidden somewhere.

Ater few games I like HaggNar much better but as I said earlier it's very meta-dependent.

 If you play Blood Sisters HaggNar gives them re-rolls from turn 3 on and earlier they can get Witchbrew fairly easy so they are very good in CC without much buffs.  On the other hand I like Bloodwrack Shrine a lot. 

[Burf]

One of the things I really enjoy about building this army is that if you're very careful you set it up so that you just swap out a unit or two and can completely change the list OR you can just adjust the list slightly for the meta you're in.

My HaggNarr Blood Sisters list and my Mirrordance Morathi list are a direct swap of those two units alongside some relics, spells, and the temple. They are NOTHING alike in playstyle but incredibly similar in models.

Oh, is the meta more shooty where I am? Drop a Khinerai unit and I can bump my Bloodwrack up to a shrine. Oh is it more combat focused? Take that shrine back down and pump up my WE. Backline buff characters being a nuisance? Better juggle my point back so I can get 20 heartrenders going.

This army is so fun.

[Twitch of Izalith]

4 hours ago, Burf said:

One of the things I really enjoy about building this army is that if you're very careful you set it up so that you just swap out a unit or two and can completely change the list OR you can just adjust the list slightly for the meta you're in.

My HaggNarr Blood Sisters list and my Mirrordance Morathi list are a direct swap of those two units alongside some relics, spells, and the temple. They are NOTHING alike in playstyle but incredibly similar in models.

Oh, is the meta more shooty where I am? Drop a Khinerai unit and I can bump my Bloodwrack up to a shrine. Oh is it more combat focused? Take that shrine back down and pump up my WE. Backline buff characters being a nuisance? Better juggle my point back so I can get 20 heartrenders going.

This army is so fun.

I agree, I have more lists written for this army than any other already and they are ALL fun to play and reasonably competitive. Even my most narrative list with no batallion and something of everything (almost) is going to be effective in all but the most hardcore competitive games.

Games workshop really do deserve credit for the last 3 battletomes -  which have all been thematic, powerful and offering multiple ways to build a good looking army that works well on the tabletop.

 

 

[DantePQ]

Played against Legion of Nagash 2 Dragons Sacrament List against one of the best players I know. Won Scorched Earth Battleplan. Mainly thanks to Heartrenders who burned one objective turn 1 and Sisters of Slaughter who retreated out of combat and charged thanks to Slaughter Troupe. 

Couple of points 

- didn't like Blood Sisters output much with little units and scenario like Scorched Earth they are hardly to manevoure. 

- Bloodwrack Shrine is quite bad did whole lot of nothing and it's easier to have one unit like Cauldron to give HaggNar aura then. 

- Morathi was again amazing, she died turn 5 but she's got into combat with 2 Dragons and killed Prince Vordhai. 

- for now I am cutting Blood Sisters and Medusa from list for more shooting - Doomfires and Heartrenders. 

[Richelieu]

How are people playing sos?  Are you having success with big blocks of 30? Small blocks of 10?  I have 0 sos and would like to give them a shot.  I am pleased with witches but I think that 6" pile in may be worth the 30 point premium on a unit of 30.

Also, after a number of games what are your general thoughts on bucklers vs knives?  I'm all in knives right now but am not opposed to going bucklers if there's strong evidence they are superior.

[DantePQ]

1 hour ago, Richelieu said:

How are people playing sos?  Are you having success with big blocks of 30? Small blocks of 10?  I have 0 sos and would like to give them a shot.  I am pleased with witches but I think that 6" pile in may be worth the 30 point premium on a unit of 30.

Also, after a number of games what are your general thoughts on bucklers vs knives?  I'm all in knives right now but am not opposed to going bucklers if there's strong evidence they are superior.

I like SoS a lot, played today against LoN with big block and their 6'' is great, just some extra flexibility, I will go with other list (30 Witches, 2x10 Sisters of Slaughter) for our gaming group big gaming day next friday (as I will play 3-4 games with great torunament players) . Also I found bucklers quite underwhelming if you get your troops charged it's bloody mess anyway unless you want to play specific way like big block of bucklers with mystic shield and/or martyr's sacrifice. Knives get really huge about.  After few games I came up with this list : 

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron + Amulet of Dark Fire, Blessing of Khaine 

Morathi + Mindrazor

2xHag Queen - Sacrament of Blood, Crimson Rejuvenation 

30 Witches with knives

2x10 Sisters of Slaughter with knives

10 Doomfire Warlocks + Shroud of Despair 

10 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders 

I will just use Doomfire Warlcoks depending on battleplan and opppnent to bunker on objective, also they give my list some mobility which is nice and near Cauldron are quite tough to kill (that 20Wounds, with 4+ save and 5++ save casting spell that deal 6 mortals or D6 mortals) also they got a lot of melee attacks which later on is quite good with HaggNar and some shooting possiblity I can cut one 5 and get more heartrenders (2x10 and I swap 10 Sisters of Slaughter for 20 Witches so there is some flexibility as well)

[The Traitor]

@DantePQ I've seen you take Crimson Rejuvenation in most of your lists, which I guess is for the Slaughter Queen as she's your only big model which can benefit so, why not take it on the Slaughter Queen? That way you'll always be in range. And, is it really worth it over the more generic prayers like martyr's sacrifice or cathechism of murder? When the book was released I discarded it as the worst prayer and, even though I've come to like it more after seeing the beast the Slaughter Queen on Cauldron is, I'm not sure I would take it if I only got three prayers to choose...

Also, is Shroud of Despair that important for Mindrazor over other spells like The Withering? It's like consuming two spells to get the effect of one and, while it is a great spell, I'm not sure if it is worth the investment since the Lore of Shadows has other great spells.

[DantePQ]

@The Traitor I've used Crimson Rejuvenation as Cauldron in HaggNar is already pretty tanky but on the other hand very important, even if I can get it through another turn thanks to it then I think it's worth it , in Kheilbron I'd wouldn't take but in HaggNar it worked good to me, also you won't always cast a prayer succesfully. I used on  Hag Queen as re-rolls of FF are even more crucial that's why Slaughter Queen has it (and it easier to position her to have range to many different targets). 

Shroud is Despair is for simple reason - it's failry easy to cast, with Doomfire Warlocks I will be using theirs spell as it's 6MW or D6MW usually, Withering is cool but even if there is 10 Doomfires I would usually go for 6 MW(and it's easier to cast), with Withering being 7+ to cast later on when Warlocks don't have +1 to cast (or I play 5 of them) and Morathi is changed it's pretty hard to cast Mindrazor and Withering - so I'd rather go for Mystic Shield. Shroud of Despair is more like 3rd spell for them but against Bravery 10 targets it fairly easy to give myself a chance to cast Mindrazor at Bravery 10 Morathi or Slaughter Queen (as thanks to Avatar they also have Bravery 10) and Slaughter Queen with Mindrazor is also awesome.   

[Lhw]

Played my first game with DoK last night. Using the below list. Really enjoyed playing with them, very much a glass hammer. The Sisters were amazing, wiped a unit of 30 Grave Guard in 1 turn. Morathi was a bit pants, but can see her having a role down the line. Certainly think it's got the basis of a good list, will see what I can do with it.

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron

Leaders
Bloodwrack Medusa (140)
- General
- Trait: Mistress of Illusion 
- Artefact: Shadow Stone 
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- Lore of Shadows: Shroud of Despair
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood

Battleline
20 x Blood Sisters (480)
- Daughters of Khaine Battleline (Bloodwrack Medusa General)
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
- Lore of Shadows: Mirror Dance
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

Total: 1980 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 110