Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

53 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

Doing some theoryhammer and thought of another way you can alpha strike. 

Shadowhammer Compact battalion including a unit of 30 witches.  

It says one of the things you can do is make a normal move.  FAQ explicitly states you can run as part of a normal move. 

Buff your witches six ways from Sunday.  Run them in your hero phase using the battalion, rerolling ones.  Run them in your move phase, rerolling ones.  Charge.  You would have to make a series of three or more consecutive bad rolls to fail.  

Nice.  The only "reliable" alpha strike I've seen is with Morathi and Mirror Dance.  I'd hate to take ALL that Stormcast

[GammaMage]

I'm not sure about Shadowhammer. The daughters have to stay close to the stormcast to get the battalion stuff, but stormcast are super slow compared to daughters, and you don't have the stormcast allegiance stuff to help out with that. Seems like it would negate the speed that is one of our army's strengths.

[DantePQ]

Also alpha strikes like that aren't reliable at all - good opponent will screen his crucial targets and that's it. 

[Amradiel]

So I am going to play my first game with 1000 points in about 2-3 weeks. Two options in mind based on the models I have. Option 1

Bloodwrack shrine  (General) 

Hag 

30 Witch elves 

10 Blood sisters 

5 Heartrenders 

5 Heartrenders  (or one unit of 10?)

Option 2

Hag on Cauldron  (General)

Bloodwrack Medusae 

20 Witch elves 

10 Sisters of Slaughter 

5 Blood sisters 

5 Heartrenders 

Help needed. Suggestions are welcomed and I dont know what artifacts and temple to take.  Thank you. 

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

I'll be trying out this 1000pts list this Friday, Saturday and Warhammer world on Monday for a little tournament my group has planned.

Khailebron

Bloodwrack Medusa with shadow Stone - mistress of illusion, mind razor

Hag Queen

Hag Queen

5 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

What do you guys think?

[BURF1]

8 hours ago, Scythian said:

Lolol, my buddy thinks I’m nuts trying to get these ready for Adepticon. I can’t believe the time I spent this past weekend making this army come to life. 

I think you're nuts trying to get these ready for adepticon. I've got just a display board and a Lord Castellant left and I'm still having to cut corners

.

[DantePQ]

37 minutes ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

I'll be trying out this 1000pts list this Friday, Saturday and Warhammer world on Monday for a little tournament my group has planned.

Khailebron

Bloodwrack Medusa with shadow Stone - mistress of illusion, mind razor

Hag Queen

Hag Queen

5 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

5 Blood Sisters

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

5 Heartrenders

What do you guys think?

For 1k I would go with 10 Blood Sisters in one unit and then Heartrenders in units of 10 and 5. Also I guess in 1k army Temple Nest could be awesome. 

[Kramer]

Quick question for the magnetising wizards in this thread. Did anyone manage to magnetise the slaughter queen so you can switch her with the hag queen on the Cauldron?

I managed to magnetise everything except that I don't have any idea how to get a magnet in her stiletto shoes  (hag queen has one foot on a skull, so that is easy enough)

[BURF1]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

Also alpha strikes like that aren't reliable at all - good opponent will screen his crucial targets and that's it. 

Except a couple of things,

 Many armies you see in the competitive scene(stormcasts, some destruction, some chaos,  most order lists) either have no screen, poor screens, or have units like Free people handgunners that are technically screening for things but are a decent hit to lose.

 Screening against deepstrikes isn't free, it heavily limits your board presence in the early game and means units that are normally extremely valuable objective holders(plaguebearers, skeletons) start further back or further forward on the board than you would optimally want them to, which is incredibly valuable to DoK as it guarantees our infantry blobs are going to get charge initiative, and witch elves are basically born to nuke out objective camping units. It also limits what your opponent can do if they go first unless they are ALSO an alphastrike list.

Screens are a very valuable defense against heavy alphastrike but they're not the be all end all and they can be worked around.

It's actually my favorite part of  'Suddenly Morathi!' That build has the unique benefit of the deepstriker being able to move 14" after she's dropped down AND not caring how many units she pulls into combat. If your opponent tries to do the normal anti-deepstrike screen you can hit points where units overlap and even if you don't kill anything you can lock anything that doesn't have fly behind his own screening unit for his entire first turn. If he makes one mistake in measurement you can end up stonewalling his movement and forcing a huge chunk of his army to retreat in odd directions.

Then you force him to take the double turn so not only does Morathi keep the full bevy of buffs(including reroll 1s to hit if she got sacrement of blood) but he's guaranteed to be in a terrible position to take advantage of the double, just based on where Morathi is. After that you don't even need the 2-3 double anymore but getting it is an absolutely devastating counter punch.

[DantePQ]

@BURF1 I got that but it doesn't work that easy some armies are vulneravle to deepstrike other are not. 

I've played with Dreadwood and Morathi isn't unique with moving after deeptrike. Alarielle does as well or unit o 9 Scythes Hunters (who have 45 wounds). I understand benefit of Alpha Strike but it isn't reliable tactic in tournament environment as it will do great against certain armies bad against other (welcome Changehost) but it could work great. I jsut think HaggNar is more reliable tournament-wise. It's not like I think that this is trash tactic - it sounds awesome, but I wouldn't build army around it (as you need 3 spellcasters for it to be optimal)

[The Traitor]

46 minutes ago, Kramer said:

Quick question for the magnetising wizards in this thread. Did anyone manage to magnetise the slaughter queen so you can switch her with the hag queen on the Cauldron?

I managed to magnetise everything except that I don't have any idea how to get a magnet in her stiletto shoes  (hag queen has one foot on a skull, so that is easy enough)

Why not pin her instead of magnetising?

[Keldaur]

You don't think a list prepared for an alpha strike from DoK is not different than a sylvaneth one?

[DantePQ]

8 minutes ago, Keldaur said:

You don't think a list prepared for an alpha strike from DoK is not different than a sylvaneth one?

sure it is different.  I just pointed a fact  that ability to move after redeployment isn't something unique or new. Also the problems with screens are the same for DoK and Sylvaneth or any other melee alpha strike lists. That's why Clown-Car is the most successfull alpha strike list. 

I think DoK could have better lists then Sylvaneth  but Sylvaneth alpha strike is much better (as Sylvaneth could alpha strike both Alarielle and Scythe Hunters and it's one drop army)  DoK will be more reliable if there is no need to alpha strike and will be better at scenarios. Also DoK redeploy isn't limited to first turn (or before the battle) but on the other hand it's more fragile against armies with fewer drops, Changehost can easily inflict 3 wounds on Morathi and blast Medusas with Mindrazor/Mirror Dance and then screen his key targets to death. And if something can suffer greatly against Changehost isn't reliable enough tournament wise. 

[Kramer]

39 minutes ago, The Traitor said:

Why not pin her instead of magnetising?

Ooh good call. I was so focused on those magnets I never thought about that. Thanks!!

 

[Kaleun]

8 hours ago, Richelieu said:

I actually think that army could be strong.  Is it 3 units of 20 Blood sisters and 4 Medusae?  

Definitely not optimized (for competitiveness at least, flavor is at maximum!), but I think the sheer blunt force will be too much for some opponents.

All those Blood Sisters would be great together with a Hurricanum.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

For 1k I would go with 10 Blood Sisters in one unit and then Heartrenders in units of 10 and 5. Also I guess in 1k army Temple Nest could be awesome. 

I made them multiple small units to gain bigger flexibility on the board to nab objectives. Also I'm getting the added benefit of the +1 to hit on the unit champions and the benefit of multiple chances on the 4+ fight and flight roll. If it were a bigger pt set of games I'd definitely combine units. I would run temple nest, but a guy attending our little tournie is taking temple nest himself! So I'd thought I'd go with a high mobility guerilla warfare style of play 

[Scythian]

The snake army is more for theme and fun than strategic beat stick. I would be much better off with a slaughter queen giving them the Orgy of Slaughter, but the moment I stick a pair of legs in the army, the theme dies. Besides, four Medusa’s can absolutely devastate a bulky unit with their stare. Not to mention the absolute savagery of the Withering and Mindrazor being interjected into the combats. I’m a firm believer in playing an army you love over the army that’ll always win. 

[Richelieu]

3 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I think DoK could have better lists then Sylvaneth  but Sylvaneth alpha strike is much better (as Sylvaneth could alpha strike both Alarielle and Scythe Hunters and it's one drop army)  DoK will be more reliable if there is no need to alpha strike and will be better at scenarios. Also DoK redeploy isn't limited to first turn (or before the battle) but on the other hand it's more fragile against armies with fewer drops, Changehost can easily inflict 3 wounds on Morathi and blast Medusas with Mindrazor/Mirror Dance and then screen his key targets to death. And if something can suffer greatly against Changehost isn't reliable enough tournament wise. 

You talk about your opponent screening.  They're not the only ones that can screen.  It's not terribly difficult to screen a Changeling from being able to deploy in a spot where they can swap.  Swap is only 27" after all.  Also, unlike a Dreadwood alpha stirke, "Suddenly Morathi" isn't hampered if you decide that you can't perform an effective strike, you just play her like you normally would.

This list has some weaknesses, but it fields a large number of units and can hit with Heartrenders, Prosecutors, Blood Stalkers, Judicators, Morathi and 30 witches on turn 1.  I don't think many opponents would be prepared for such a ferocious opening turn. 

Double Alphastrike List:

List Name: "Suddenly Morathi, featuring where'd those Witches come from?"

Temple: Khailebron

Morathi (480) - Mirror Dance

Medusa (140) - Mindrazor, Shadowstone

Hag Queen (60) - +1 blood rite turn prayer

Hag Queen (60) - Catechism

Slaughter Queen (100) - General, Iron Circlet, Martyrs Sacrifice

30 Witches (270)

10 Witches (100)

5 Heartrenders (80)

5 Blood Stalkers (160)

5 Liberators (100)

5 Liberators (100)

3 Prosecutors w/ Hammers (100)

5 Judicators (160)

Shadowhammer Compact (80)

Total (1990)

 

[DantePQ]

You know it's just my opinion and I can be completly wrong (and I would be fine with that) but it's not that hard to kill those essential parts of this combo (Slaughter Queen has 5W and close to no protection, SCE aren't that hard to kill). Swap is 27'' but it's quite easy to do this to have Slaughter Queen or/and SCE/Morathi in range.  

59 minutes ago, Richelieu said:

You talk about your opponent screening.  They're not the only ones that can screen.  It's not terribly difficult to screen a Changeling from being able to deploy in a spot where they can swap.  Swap is only 27" after all.  Also, unlike a Dreadwood alpha stirke, "Suddenly Morathi" isn't hampered if you decide that you can't perform an effective strike, you just play her like you normally would.

This list has some weaknesses, but it fields a large number of units and can hit with Heartrenders, Prosecutors, Blood Stalkers, Judicators, Morathi and 30 witches on turn 1.  I don't think many opponents would be prepared for such a ferocious opening turn. 

 

Top competitive armies will be prepared or they will be prepared to go first to smoke what they can/need. It's not that it isn't a very good list (it is very good) but will have some horrible match-ups as Changehost has ability to go first on you and Gaunt Summoner will cripple Witches and rest of spellcasters will kill/cripple something crucial (Morathi, SCE guys, Slaughter Queen) and then will screen anything valuable with tons of horrors and 30 Tzaangors.  Maggotkin with first turn has ability to cripple in also first turn. 

That army would be amazing with 1-2 drops otherwise there are many bad match-ups (and some awesome ones as well). 

And I said earlier that Morathi Alpha Strike lists are much better then Dreadwood as they have a plan b) not to alpha strike at all. 

[Lucentia]

7 hours ago, Kramer said:

Quick question for the magnetising wizards in this thread. Did anyone manage to magnetise the slaughter queen so you can switch her with the hag queen on the Cauldron?

I managed to magnetise everything except that I don't have any idea how to get a magnet in her stiletto shoes  (hag queen has one foot on a skull, so that is easy enough)

Glue a magnet underneath the top step of the shrine, glue a length of paperclip between her feet, paint it an appropriately disguised colour and it works just fine.

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

Made myself a full command set... so much super glue and chopping

[DJMoose]

7 hours ago, Ekrund Oath Splitters said:

Made myself a full command set... so much super glue and chopping

 

 

 

Is it true that the Witch Elf hands and arms are compatible with the Medusai?   Because it certainly looks that way.

That Witch Elf banner works really well with the pose you have there!

[Ekrund Oath Splitters]

2 hours ago, DJMoose said:

Is it true that the Witch Elf hands and arms are compatible with the Medusai?   Because it certainly looks that way.

That Witch Elf banner works really well with the pose you have there!

Haha thanks! It took Alot of filing and cutting for them to fit in. 

[DantePQ]

Had an interesitng game yesterday :

Against : Mixed Order (3 Frostheart  Pheonixes- one General with Pheonix Stone), Morathi, 3x10 Skinks, 2xwaywatcher hero, 5x5 Waywatchers) 

Scenario : Knife to the Heart 

My army : HaggNar - Slaughter Queen with Cauldron (Amulet of Dark Fire, Blessing of Khaine prayer), Morathi (Mindrazor), 2xHag Queen (Sacrament of Blood and Crimson Rejuvenation), 30 SoS, 30 WE, 10 WE(with bucklers), 5 Doomfire (Shroud of Despair), 10 Heartrenders, 5 Heartrenders. 

Made a huge mistake with not going first as I passed on first turn, my enemy advanced (30 SoS and 10 WElves were near my objective, rest of the army was close to his deployment zone) and thanks to great shooting (he had re-rolls of wounds on almost everything thanks to mystical terrrain) by 30 Witch Aelves were almsot dead (6 survived after battleshock), I did little in my turn - killed one his hero with Morathi spells, advanced big block SoS a little closer. I won a turn and gave it back as apart from magic (and his key targets were hidden) I couldn't do much - he wasted his turn as he didn't have any targets as well (he tried to shot down remianing witches but one got away and surviced hidden whole game - precious points). In my second I advanced SoS to be in position to charge along with Cauldron, luckily I got third turn charged 25 SoS into his 2 pheonixes , Cauldron failed charge :P. Sisters with Mindrazor (I didn't manage to cast Shroud of Despair) and Witchbrew didn't whole of nothing against pheonixes - I managed to inflict like 6 wounds total and kill one unit of waywatchers. In his turn he anihiliated SoS and damaged a little Cauldron (as I had 4++ agaianst magic it wasn't much). In fourt he charged Cauldron with 3 Pheonixes (Cauldron had all the stuff switched on - re-rolls of FF and mystic shield). He managed to score total of 3 wounds against it , Cauldron inflicted like 6W on one bird then in my 4th I transformed Morathi and put myslef into charge postion, dropped heartrenders into his waywatchers. I didn't manage to cast Midrazor or Shroud of Despar again, Morathi, failed her charge but I healed 3 Wounds on Cauldron. Cauldron used CA and killed one bird in extra combat phase - then took another 3 wounds. I didn't get 5th turn as well, so he changed his Morathi and made a mistake as he shoudl tarpit my Morathi instead he charged Cauldron - and Cauldron killed another bird and took 3 wounds of Morathi. I charged my Morathi in my fith and she killed Pheonix general in one turn of combat :D, Cauldron killed last bird but was destroyed as well. Heartrenders scored some points agains tWaywatchers

All in the end I won minor as I had 820 points captured to 790 lost :D. 

I guess I made some bad mistakes (giving up first turn) but Hagg Narr Cauldron is amazing with 4+ save and 5++ FF with re-rolls and some healing nearny it's a truck and it hit ver hard as well (with any buff - Mindrazor, Wtichbrew, HaggNar ability) it survived like 4 rounds of combats against 3pheonixes and later on Morathi. 

Morathi is awesome as well, it was quite easy to shield her against shooting with her huge spell range and then she won the game with a Charge into enemy general - without any buffs as HaggNar ability and Alliance ability in 5th turn is amazing. HaggNar is quite reliable as one Cauldron is really amazing with buffing all units nearby.

Also Knife to the Heart is quite static scenario as good player will give you little possibility to win with major unless you table him.

So far so good with DoK : 2 wins (minor and major) against Mixed order and majors against Maggotkin, Sylvaneth, Legions of Nagash and KO. Next up are SCE  and then some Changehost.  

Also some random thoughts :

I work how incorporate Blood Sisters into this army (I am reluctant to make Bloodshrine a general as Cauldron with HaggNarr ability and Amulet of Fire is amazing tool).  I think I will cut down some Heartrenders and one big block of troops for 10 Blood Sisters (will have more wounds as well) as unit that hits hard and has rend on their own is very much needed (also higher bravery and already rend is amazing for Mindrazor)

Slaughter Queen, Morathi, 2xHag Queen, 5 Doomfire, 30 Witches , 2x10 Witches, 10 Blood Sisters, 2x5 Heartrenders  

 

[Aranthir]

@DantePQ thanks for your report, a lot of interesting insight , you seem to be playtesting Daughters relelentlessly. Great work keep it coming !