Let's chat: Daughters of Khaine

[BURF1]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It depends on how you want to approach a game, with bigger blocks of troops, or 10+ units of Blood Sisters HaggNar is better I believe.

Honestly I'm not a big fun of Catechism as it gets worse as you said and second usually when 20-30 Witches hit the combat it done (especially with HaggNar) just make sure they got Witchbrew. I think +1 to Blood Rites is better as well as Martyr Sacrifice - pray it on big unit and some armies will not like it at all - it gives you extra tactical tool. 

I think I will tweak by army in that direction : 

Morathi with Mindrazor, Cauldron with Amulet and +1 to Blood Rites, Bloodwrack Shirne with Mirror Dance, and +1 to cast and re-rolls of 1), Hag Queen with Martyr's Sacrifice, 5 HeartRenders, 10 Heartrenders, 30 Witches, 2x10 SoS - Slaughter Troupe. It's 5 Drops which isn't amazing but could scrap it for more bodies (for example extra witches). That gives me more movements abilites another big unit with extra mortal wound output and reliable caster. Not a big fun of Mirror Dance but I got to test it out  maybe Steed of Shadows could be good.

I personally think that you shouldn't be choosing between catechism and sacrement, you should be taking both. Taking amulet is gimping yourself in most matchups compared to Blood Sigil. Except for changehost and KroakNado, you'll get more out of having more prayer options than you will a 4++ against spells.  

[Korazell]

Can someone explain to me a bit about how the Khanite pendant works? It allows you to cast three prayers but unless your model knows a prayer itself...isn't it better to get the artifact that gives you another prayer and allows you to use it?

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

32 minutes ago, Korazell said:

Can someone explain to me a bit about how the Khanite pendant works? It allows you to cast three prayers but unless your model knows a prayer itself...isn't it better to get the artifact that gives you another prayer and allows you to use it?

It allows you to use the standard prayers like animating the avatar or dealing mortal wounds, as well as one of the prayers from the table.

[Malakithe]

I can see this list as being super irritating to face. Bouncy bat ladies combined with 2 units teleporting per turn lol

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron

Leaders
Bloodwrack Shrine (220)
- General
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood(300)
Hag Queen (60)

Battleline
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
10 x Witch Aelves (100)
10 x Witch Aelves (100)

Units
5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
5 x Doomfire Warlocks (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)

Battalions
Shadow Patrol (120)

Total: 1960 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

[DantePQ]

5 hours ago, BURF1 said:

I personally think that you shouldn't be choosing between catechism and sacrement, you should be taking both. Taking amulet is gimping yourself in most matchups compared to Blood Sigil. Except for changehost and KroakNado, you'll get more out of having more prayer options than you will a 4++ against spells.  

I think it's more then only Changehost and Kroak as yesterday it came handy as well when my opponent knowing that I had those extra spells wasn't targeting Cauldron at all with Spells. It's great against Nurgle with Rotigus as well. Also meta is Changehost heavy but I got to see

Also

Just don't like Catechism so much as for example yesterday Witches scored over 60 wounds on plague monks. Sure it could be awesome and I will test it but I'd rather take another Hag Queen then scrap Amulet as she will give me second Witchbrew as well. 

Ok and quick question to everyone what appers to be better Khelibron - Morathi, Slaughter Queen on Cauldron, Bloodwrack Shrine,Hag Queen, 30 Witches, 2x10 SoS, 2x10 Heartrenders - Slaughter Troupe it's 5 drop army I can give Medusa a lot of diffferent set ups (Mirro Dance and +1 spell to cast to cast enfeebling foe, or just +1 to cast and re-rolls of 1 with Mindrazor/Wihtering/Mirror Dance) it's 5 drop army so pretty decent but nothing to get excited over. 

Another version is similar but instead of Slaughter Troupe (and 5 Hearrenders) I got another big block of 30 Witches/SoS and then it's kind of complicated as I would need to scrap Slaughter Queen for Hag Queen on Cauldron to get second witchbrew (points are very tight) And I lose artefact .

[Black_Fortress_Immortal]

2 hours ago, DantePQ said:

I think it's more then only Changehost and Kroak as yesterday it came handy as well when my opponent knowing that I had those extra spells wasn't targeting Cauldron at all with Spells. It's great against Nurgle with Rotigus as well. Also meta is Changehost heavy but I got to see

Also

Just don't like Catechism so much as for example yesterday Witches scored over 60 wounds on plague monks. Sure it could be awesome and I will test it but I'd rather take another Hag Queen then scrap Amulet as she will give me second Witchbrew as well. 

Ok and quick question to everyone what appers to be better Khelibron - Morathi, Slaughter Queen on Cauldron, Bloodwrack Shrine,Hag Queen, 30 Witches, 2x10 SoS, 2x10 Heartrenders - Slaughter Troupe it's 5 drop army I can give Medusa a lot of diffferent set ups (Mirro Dance and +1 spell to cast to cast enfeebling foe, or just +1 to cast and re-rolls of 1 with Mindrazor/Wihtering/Mirror Dance) it's 5 drop army so pretty decent but nothing to get excited over. 

Another version is similar but instead of Slaughter Troupe (and 5 Hearrenders) I got another big block of 30 Witches/SoS and then it's kind of complicated as I would need to scrap Slaughter Queen for Hag Queen on Cauldron to get second witchbrew (points are very tight) And I lose artefact .

I don't understand your question - try writing out both lists before we can comment on which one is better.

5 drops is a lot for a competitive environment, so if you're going to have a high drop count, you're going to want to rely on Mirror Dance and Khailebron to get control of positioning or do an alpha strike if the enemy forces you to go first.

[Tubs]

Here’s my take on running Morathi in a competitive Dok list. You need to be able to maintain little form as long as possible. Apart from Duality obviously. I’ve been playing with something like this

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Khailebron

Leaders
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- General
- Lore of Shadows: Mindrazor
Hag Queen (60)
- Prayer: Catechsim of Murder
Slaughter Queen (100)
- Artefact: Crown of Woe  
- Prayer: Sacrament of Blood

Battleline
10 x Sisters Of Slaughter (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
10 x Sisters Of Slaughter (120)
- Sacrificial Knives and Blade Bucklers
30 x Witch Aelves (270)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

Units
10 x Blood Stalkers (320)
5 x Blood Stalkers (160)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Paladin Protectors (200)
- 2x Starsoul Maces
- Allies

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 200 / 400
Wounds: 121
 

Paladins give Morathi an extra -1 to hit from shooting from those not aware

[DantePQ]

I wrote one list and stated that the the only change is scrapping Slaughter Troupe Battalion + 5 Heartrenders for another Big block of Infantry  but never mind. 

Yeah I know 5 drop is a lot , that's why Battalions are kind of meh as they limitd army design a lot and bonueses aren't that great (but quite good if you happen to run those units anyway). It's nice to get second artefact though, but for that reason I love this Battletome as much - a lot of moving pieces with every army you try to come up with. 

Anyway it's my list for next test games  

Khelibron 

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron + Amulet of Fire, Martyr's Sacrifice Prayer

Morathi + Mindrazor

Bloodwrack Shrine + Mirror Dance

Hag Queen + Sacrament of Blood Prayer 

30 Witch Elves + Sacrifical Knives

30 Sisters of Slaughter + Sacrificial Knives 

10 Witch Elves + bucklers 

10 Heartrenders 

5 Heartrenders

So I swaped 10 Doomfires and 5 Heartrenders for extra 20 Sisters of Slaughter and Bloodwrack Shrine. I need to playtest it more as played only one game with Bloodwrack Shrine but I need extra Spellcaster and 13Wounds is quite cool + it has nice antihorde attack and source of extra mortal wounds as well. As MEdusa is hard to hide anyway I think it could be quite good. Also thinking about changing Slaughter Queen for Hag Queen for extra witchbrew (as I can't find points for extra hag queen unless I cut another 5 Heartrenders). 

@Tubs do you really need -3 to shooting against Morathi, she already has -2 in that list in small form. Also as for now Morathi can't be a general it this list. 

 

[Aranthir]

And what about this list - it's my first list with DoK so I guess it's far from optimal but it's all in on getting to the throat. 

Temple : Khailebron 

Leaders Bloodwrack Shrine (220) - General - Command Trait : Mistress of Illusion - Artefact : Shadow Stone - Lore of Shadows : Mindrazor

Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480) - Lore of Shadows : The Withering

Bloodwrack Medusa (140) - Lore of Shadows : Mirror Dance

Hag Queen (60) - Prayer : Sacrament of Blood

Battelines  :  20 x Blood Sisters (480) , 30 x Witch Aelves (270) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives , 10 x Witch Aelves (100) -Pairs of Sacrificial Knives

10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160),  5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)

[Tubs]

14 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

I wrote one list and stated that the the only change is scrapping Slaughter Troupe Battalion + 5 Heartrenders for another Big block of Infantry  but never mind. 

Yeah I know 5 drop is a lot , that's why Battalions are kind of meh as they limitd army design a lot and bonueses aren't that great (but quite good if you happen to run those units anyway). It's nice to get second artefact though, but for that reason I love this Battletome as much - a lot of moving pieces with every army you try to come up with. 

Anyway it's my list for next test games  

Khelibron 

Slaughter Queen on Cauldron + Amulet of Fire, Martyr's Sacrifice Prayer

Morathi + Mindrazor

Bloodwrack Shrine + Mirror Dance

Hag Queen + Sacrament of Blood Prayer 

30 Witch Elves + Sacrifical Knives

30 Sisters of Slaughter + Sacrificial Knives 

10 Witch Elves + bucklers 

10 Heartrenders 

5 Heartrenders

So I swaped 10 Doomfires and 5 Heartrenders for extra 20 Sisters of Slaughter and Bloodwrack Shrine. I need to playtest it more as played only one game with Bloodwrack Shrine but I need extra Spellcaster and 13Wounds is quite cool + it has nice antihorde attack and source of extra mortal wounds as well. As MEdusa is hard to hide anyway I think it could be quite good. Also thinking about changing Slaughter Queen for Hag Queen for extra witchbrew (as I can't find points for extra hag queen unless I cut another 5 Heartrenders). 

@Tubs do you really need -3 to shooting against Morathi, she already has -2 in that list in small form. Also as for now Morathi can't be a general it this list. 

 

Yes you really do need -3 it’s out of your control wether she transforms or not so if I limit all damage down to purely spells or abilities I’m gaining abit more control.

Im not on the side of Morathi not being able to be general. I think she can but only the faq can tell us at this point

[Keldaur]

6 hours ago, Tubs said:

Yes you really do need -3 it’s out of your control wether she transforms or not so if I limit all damage down to purely spells or abilities I’m gaining abit more control.

Im not on the side of Morathi not being able to be general. I think she can but only the faq can tell us at this point

Why exactly are people saying she can't be the general? On what basis? What she can't is get ANY command trait or artifact, so no -3 for her in the shooting phase.

[DantePQ]

-1 is from Paladin Protectors allies not from artefact 

[Qaz]

1 hour ago, Keldaur said:

Why exactly are people saying she can't be the general? On what basis? What she can't is get ANY command trait or artifact, so no -3 for her in the shooting phase.

Khailebron temple must take the command trait. Morathi can not take command trait. She can be the general in other temple or without a temple.  I also agree that -3 shooting is excessive although in that instance it's temple ability, Morathi's ability plus Protectors ability stacking on each other. 

[Twitch of Izalith]

19 hours ago, DantePQ said:

It depends on how you want to approach a game, with bigger blocks of troops, or 10+ units of Blood Sisters HaggNar is better I believe.

Honestly I'm not a big fun of Catechism as it gets worse as you said and second usually when 20-30 Witches hit the combat it done (especially with HaggNar) just make sure they got Witchbrew. I think +1 to Blood Rites is better as well as Martyr Sacrifice - pray it on big unit and some armies will not like it at all - it gives you extra tactical tool. 

I think I will tweak by army in that direction : 

Morathi with Mindrazor, Cauldron with Amulet and +1 to Blood Rites, Bloodwrack Shirne with Mirror Dance, and +1 to cast and re-rolls of 1), Hag Queen with Martyr's Sacrifice, 5 HeartRenders, 10 Heartrenders, 30 Witches, 2x10 SoS - Slaughter Troupe. It's 5 Drops which isn't amazing but could scrap it for more bodies (for example extra witches). That gives me more movements abilites another big unit with extra mortal wound output and reliable caster. Not a big fun of Mirror Dance but I got to test it out  maybe Steed of Shadows could be good.

I think Hagg Narr is the strongest option for a 5 or 6 game tournament - just because it makes your troops more reliable. Mystic shield + Bucklers + Bloodshield + re-roll fanatical faith prayer means you can have  units of 30 witches/sisters with a 3+,5+,5+ saves in combat. - still not as good as 330points of Vulkite berserkers but I think resilience carries you a long way in a GT at the moment. Re-roll hits is almost as strong as +1 to hit for most units too - considering how much of our stuff hits on 3's!

I'm sticking with Draichi Ganeth while I learn the army but I will run some Hagg Nar lists too. Khailebron is not great for my local group because nobody has a lot of shooting  - the ranged threat is all from spells (Nurgle, Tzeentch & Death). I think my DoK army will easily have the most shooting once I get the new stuff in the list!

Steed of shadows is quite good for getting bloodwrack stare off. Gives it a 26" effective threat range. getting them into range before you got sniped was always the problem with medusa before the book came out and this solves that pretty well.

I'm still trying to get my head around the best way to use Morathi. How long to keep her in High Oracle form sounds like warhammer roulette to me .

Playing murderhost on Sunday. Feeling confident. Got my "you better change its name to murdered host" jokes teed up and ready... so i'll probably lose  

[DantePQ]

Based on my limited expiernce with Morathi (only 4 games) I think her main problems are spells and abilities that generate mortal wounds, especially those with huge or unlimited range (Stardrake, Nurgle cycle). Againt majoirty of shooting she has -2 to hit (in small form) 4+ save (easly improved - Cauldron, Mystic Shield) 6+ FF that's a lo -  also her doubled spell range means that she don't need to be that close (I know that many shooting unit can still catch her but it would be very hard).  But it's just me maybe in shooty-heavy meta she would need that but with Sylvaneth 

Yes according to wording she can't be Khailebron or HaggNar general. 

@Twitch of Izalith yeah I'm leaning towards HaggNar as well, as meta is more about spells/abilities to deal mortal wounds then shooting ? Skyfires are dominant anymore (as Changehost is just plain better), Suylvaneth are pretty weak and they don't bring more then 2 units of hunters (and they will have problems with Morathi) and what other top army brings it ? KO Clown-Car against Morathi is still quite bad regardless of Temple and another big unit/model with 5++ re-rollable ward is horror for them. Also HaggNar ability to re-roll all hits is powerful espeically with Sacrament of Blood prayer, I'm having fun with Khelibron but will change to HaggNar I think as it would be much better across all scenarios - Duality of Death will be crazy, also ability to bunker on objective with big unit of SoS/WE should be also crazy good especially with Martyr's Sacrifice. I would go with Bloodwrack Shrine (General, Amulet of Dark Fire,  Steed of Shadows/Shroud of Despair), HagQueen on Cauldron (Sacrament of Blood), Morathi (Mindrazor), Hag Queen (re-rolls of FF), 10 Blood Sisters, 30 Sisters of Slaughter, 20 Witche Elves, 2x5 Heartrenders - it's good bodies, prayers, magic, huge resistance also could be tweaked in number of directions  

[GammaMage]

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/09/blood-and-faith-part-2-building-a-daughters-of-khaine-armygw-homepage-post-4/

In which Morathi is general of a Khailebron temple.

[DantePQ]

4 minutes ago, GammaMage said:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2018/03/09/blood-and-faith-part-2-building-a-daughters-of-khaine-armygw-homepage-post-4/

In which Morathi is general of a Khailebron temple.

it doesn't matter as WH community articles have had a lot of mistakes before

[GammaMage]

Just to muddy the waters further!

[DantePQ]

Just need to wait for a FAQ and everything should be much clearer  not a big deal, until then we can play as we believe.  

[Richelieu]

39 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

@Twitch of Izalith yeah I'm leaning towards HaggNar as well, as meta is more about spells/abilities to deal mortal wounds then shooting ?

I've been thinking this for about 3 months now.  People constantly say "shooting is busted, shooting phase needs fixed, support heroes get wrecked by shooting, etc."  but then if you look at results across tournaments shooting lists are almost entirely absent.

 

42 minutes ago, DantePQ said:

Duality of Death will be crazy, also ability to bunker on objective with big unit of SoS/WE should be also crazy good especially with Martyr's Sacrifice.

Yes, a low drop, Hagg Nar Morathi list will be nearly impossible to defeat in duality.  Transform and move her into position, run your Witches up the board as close to the other objective as they can get, drop units of Khinerai in front of both as screens and there simply won't be enough turns for your opponent to clear your stuff out of the way and start scoring.  It won't matter one bit if you lose all your models if you screen Morathi during the combat phase so she is only taking max 3 wounds per battle round vs max 6 if she's in combat.

[Kaleun]

How can we get the drops down? I can only imagine a 3 drop list like so:

Allegiance: Daughters Of Khaine
- Temple: Hagg Nar
Morathi High Oracle of Khaine (480)
- General
Hag Queen on Cauldron Of Blood (300)
10 x Sisters Of Slaughter (120)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Sisters Of Slaughter (120)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
20 x Witch Aelves (200)
- Pairs of Sacrificial Knives
10 x Khinerai Heartrenders (160)
5 x Khinerai Heartrenders (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
5 x Khinerai Lifetakers (80)
Cauldron Guard (100)
Slaughter Troupe (80)

Total: 2000 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
Wounds: 104

this is just theory crafting as I havent got my Battletome yet.

[GammaMage]

Don't you also need a Slaughter Queen for the troupe?

[DantePQ]

You need Slaughter Queen. 

That's why I wouldn't go that crazy with Battalions, I would take one max. But I think more and mere armies will follow DoK approach to Battalions. And I love this approach. 

[Keldaur]

2 hours ago, Qaz said:

Khailebron temple must take the command trait. Morathi can not take command trait. She can be the general in other temple or without a temple.  I also agree that -3 shooting is excessive although in that instance it's temple ability, Morathi's ability plus Protectors ability stacking on each other. 

No, Khailebron must have that command trait INSTEAD of the ones in page 51. Morathi can't get any trait whatsoever.

"Morathi is the supreme leader of the Daughters of Khaine, with her own personality and items of terrifying power. As such, she cannot have any additional command traits or artefacts of power in either of her forms"

[zedatkinszed]

1 hour ago, Kaleun said:

How can we get the drops down? I can only imagine a 3 drop list like so:

 

1 hour ago, DantePQ said:

That's why I wouldn't go that crazy with Battalions, I would take one max. But I think more and mere armies will follow DoK approach to Battalions. And I love this approach. 

You know I've been racking my brains about drops since the rules leaked and maybe the answer is not to reduce them but to embrace the likelihood that DoK player wont be the one who goes who goes first. So prepare to be the one who is "forced to take the first turn". Plan a strategy based around this and deploy appropriately. There just is no 2K 1 drop list that gives the army all its myriad of options, so embrace it!