Gwendar

The way I see it, the bottom line is that while the math works out one way over another.. Poleaxes are just another tool in the box. A lot of the time, they're still going to be better at dealing with those Ethereal Amulet Stonehorns, Terrorgheists, Maw Krushas, etc because they don't really care about your -1 to -3 rend. I feel like Poleaxes need less support and thus can act a bit better on their own if needed.. if there isn't any of the above targets around, they're still great at killing units with poor saves while the Broadaxes deal with everything else. I think this initial conversation was just hinged on what was the better unit for LotL which I would say is Broadaxes.. but I still think there's a point to having a unit of Poleaxes to answer certain problems if they present themselves; and there's been a lot of the above targets showing up in the meta.

Not sure honestly.. I've heard others doing it but wasn't sure how. Worse case scenario I don't, use all Broadaxes and then if any changes happen and I want Poleaxes I just clip them off, reattach and repaint. Which... that's what I had to do with my Stormfiends once they changed with the battletome and everyone swapped to Ratlings and Windlaunchers 😅

I just planned to magnetize.. easily done by just magnetizing the weapon heads between broadaxes, poleaxes and magmapikes. The bottom line here is that one can be better against certain targets but overall the broadaxes are probably always the best option considering what's out there. Magnetizing is really the best thing you can do anyway because you never know what can change in the next GHB coming this summer; for all we know the axes get nerfed and Auric Hearthguard drop points and get +1 to hit and we turn into a shooting army 😅

Yeah.. pretty much what Skreech said. You need something (Clanrats) to take the charge and hope that you get the next turn priority. 6 Stormfiends, 9 Jezzails or 20 Acolytes can all 1-shot it.. though if one of them has Ethereal Amulet it could be swingy with the Jezzails in particular. Of course, Monks could likely kill it too in 1 go.. but again, etheral makes it a bit harder.

Another batrep up with 2 games from our monthly meetup at the LGS. Ran the Fiend\Jezzail\HPA list variant.. the Stormcast game was over in 20 minutes but that's got a lot to do with me getting a double turn if I'm honest; he played very aggressively his T1 and banked on getting priority. Anyway, enjoy everyone. List is nice.. I'll keep playing it for the foreseeable future:

My List Game 1: Nurgle - Shifting ObjectivesNurgle List T1 Main Objective is right side. I go first and get MMMWP off on the Fiends and teleport the Jezzails over to the right.. and they manage to get the GUO down to 1 wound left. The Windlaunchers where out of range due to the Jezzails blocking their path, but they did manage to kill 1 1\2 Drones. His turn has the GUO heal back to 10 wounds which definitely pretty frustrating that I failed by 1 wound but.. nothing else really happened aside from him slowly moving forward. 5-0 Skaven T2 Objective stays right side. I get priority, and yet again fail to shoot off the GUO. I rearrange Clanrats on objectives to force him to have a longer charge and get the HPA up the center to engage the Plaguebearers. His turn has me unbind or him fail any useful spells but he manages to kill a Jezzail with Arcane Bolt. He charges the Plaguebearers into the HPA and do 2 wounds.. meanwhile it hits back and takes off 12. 10-0 Skaven T3 Objective stays right side. He wins priority and takes me off the left objective with his Harbinger and 5 Blightkings. HPA takes Plaguebearers down to 4 remaining but dies in the middle from the Blightkings that charged in, but I roll a 5 and it comes back with 4 wounds. On my turn I finally take off the GUO and drones. I get my middle Clanrats out of the middle to take care of the Nurglings in my backline as my hidden agenda was to not have any enemy units in my territory at the end of the game. 13-2 Skaven T4 Objective moves to the left side. I win priority and he calls the game as I'll easily take mid and he won't be able to recover from the points deficit. Skaven Major Victory _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Game 2: Stormcast - Scorched Earth (2018)Stormcast List (player didn't have list, so this is from memory.. not sure on artifacts\trait\etc) T1 He goes first, fails to get off the Comet and I unbind the Dias cast. A handful of Clanrats get shot off.. but the 10 Evocators came down on the right side, made a 12" charge and killed all but 9 Clanrats and the HPA.. which yet again came back but only on 1-wound. It swings back and kills 2 but he still takes the objective after BS with only 1 Clanrat remaining with the HPA. I get off MMMWP and reshuffle Clanrats to project a screen closer to the 20 Sequitors. Shooting phase has the Jezzails shoot off all but 2 Evocators on the right side and the Fiends kill around half the Sequitors. The rest of the Evocators run from BS. 4-2 Stormcast T2 I get the double turn, MMMWP goes off again and I prep 20 Clanrats to make a run towards his back left objective that's only being held by the 5 Judicators. The Fiends shoot off the rest of the Sequitors and he calls the game. We quick play a few things and I would shoot off the Knight-Incantor to shut off the comet and there isn't much he can do at this point to pull it back after I killed ~1k points worth. _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Overall Thoughts I'm liking the list so far. I don't put a batrep up of every game I play, but this was the 1st time I played with the HPA and definitely loved it more than the Monks. More testing will need to be done.. I mean it didn't get to do anything against the Stormcast and I got lucky with rolling a 5 both times for it to not die. I hate GUO's and their inability to die, but my opponent rolled some monster FNP saves. Not much to say overall.. I have a variant where I swap Fiends for Acolytes, but I dunno. I really want to keep the 9 Jezzails as they're so incredibly useful\threatening against any army so I don't want to swap them for 30 Acolytes + Fiends (which, as I mathed out before works well enough with Deranged Inventor). The thing with this setup is that the HPA and Jezzails can both act alone and that's great to have. Also, I wasn't sold on Skitterleap but I don't know that I replace it... the only thing I would replace it with is Warpgale and I'm not sure it's a valid tradeoff for the utility of Skitterleap. Anyway, good games, but more practice required. I'm hopefully going to be able to bring my Hallowheart list to the next tournament, so if anyone is interested in seeing that be sure to check the blog every week or so.. I generally only post about a game in the relevant faction thread. Thanks as reading, as always.

Sprayed vallejo black primer, then vallejo cold grey at a 45-90 degree angle.. so basically a zenithal prime without the white. From there I just used a thinned down Basilicanum Grey for the skin and that was pretty much it. Also, I know you didn't ask but the Vallejo Metal Color airbrush line is absolutely nuts. The metals were all brushed on with that paint and 1 coat over what was basically dark grey had perfect coverage... all without being tacky looking\feeling like other metallic paints tend to be. Highly recommend them.

Not terrible, though I don't have much play experience with them. They're a cheapish "hammer" but you really need to field them in a larger unit of 4-6 to get use out of them in my opinion. Running them with a Master Moulder will have 6 of them doing ~18 on average vs a 4+.. without a Master Moulder you're looking at ~15. It's a 300-400 point investment either way but the added benefit of the Master Moulder is going to allow you to have the CA that lets you get the unit back on a 5+ if it gets destroyed.. though coming in from the board edge means they may get taken off again or you spend a turn just running to get in range of something to charge. Alternatively you just run a Packmaster unit with them for the +1 to hit for less.

Yeah.. I mean it's worth using if they're in range to get one of the 3 Spark handouts but there's been just as many times that I've rolled no 6's but lots of 4-5's and it's done far more damage. Far too often have I seen things get to 1 wound remaining and I die a little inside everytime they do.

First test model done. Going for a Duergar\Dark Iron look. And yeah, I did without the mohawks.. I think the helmet + mohawk combo looks... odd. If it was just mohawks like a traditional old world Slayer I'd be down but, ah well. This gives them a more traditional dwarf look (minus of course the runes embedded in their skin...) which I really prefer.

I like to recommend one if points are available. True, it does like to have a Warpspark and MMMWP, but they aren't necessary. It's actually quite a good tool to hit those backline\hiding support heroes with low wounds\saves. Games are often won and lost at deployment, especially against Changehost. As you said, you've learnt from it and that's usually the best way to learn is by experience rather than sitting here and theorycrafting 😉 Also, yeah.. the Spellportal is particularly great for Tzeentch as they can "ignore" the 1 spell through it per turn due to the LoC being able to eat it. So essentially, they throw it out T1, and on T2 they can cast a spell through it, eat it, have it cast again, and throw another spell through it to essentially double-tap with it. Sounds like you didn't do too terribly though all things said, you learned some things so better luck next time. I said it in reply to your comment in my batrep post, but I'll say it here too. You really gotta take the army you're playing into account. Are they an elite army that can't afford to leave a unit behind to watch one in their backline and you think you can make use of one being there? Throw it back there. If you're playing something that can summon or with tons of cheap bodies like Seraphon... yeah, it will be wasted as they'll cover it without a second thought. Consider angles of threat; Jezzails are really the best things to teleport with them. I can't tell you how many times I've kept 2 in my deployment\mid table and setup Jezzails to shoot something squishy, only to have them setup another target on the other side of them out of range. T1 they can teleport to the other Gnawhole and get the angle they need to hit them. Of course, against people that are familiar with Skaven, they will see you deploying them within 6" of a Gnawhole and likely see this coming.. still, something to think about 😉 All in all I don't find Gnawholes to be that useful after T1 in most cases. The casting buff and teleporting is nice, but it's likely never going to win you a game so I laugh when I see people claim you "auto-lose" games without them. Because of this, I usually setup 2 on my side if I'm playing an army that is going to threaten me with a T1 charge\double turn. Otherwise, I normally have 1 in my deployment and 2 mid-table. You can snag certain battleplan objectives with this but it isn't something I normally try to strategize towards. It only affects damage, not MW's. So you would just do 2 MW's and not 2 MW's + 1 MW\damage I believe. If Jezzails were worded "MW's in addition to normal damage" then it would work this way.

Yeah, gonna be testing it a lot in prep for Nashcon and Nova this year.. though I'm currently working on swapping the Monks for a Hell Pit but also considering running Fiends\Acolytes\Jezzails or a Hellpit with no Bell. I really think if you're running Jezzails (or hell, even Fiends without Bridge) it's really the best use of the Gnawholes. Many overestimate what they can do and will always have a unit guarding a backline one.. so more often than not I place 1-2 in my deployment (or near it) or 1-2 in the middle-ish of the table.. by T2-3 people tend to forget about them. Typically I run the 40 Monks with the Bell because of Death Frenzy. That wholly within range for the BS immunity can actually cover 40 Monks and 20 Clanrats quite easily.. but I'll throw 40 around it depending on what is deployed in front of them.

I won't be seeing you since I'm in the states, but I really need you to run this and let us know how it works 😉

Even then I think with the extra rend (especially if you get -2 rend) you're still obliterating that 2+ save RR'ing 20 PE Mortek Guard sitting in cover with that double pile-in on Broadaxes compared to Poleaxes. I dunno.. I'm currently building into Fyreslayers in place of OBR and I've considered having 20 of each. You never know what could be changed in updates that would directly or indirectly affect the choice between the two. Having both simply gives you options to deal with different situations if they arise. I agree though.. NH in general aren't really a 'frightening' thing to go up against anyway 😅

Unless someone decides to run it at a national tournament, I doubt I will.. I'm the only Skaven player in my area 😉

Huh? I was saying that Broadaxes are better all around? I was simply saying that against un-rendable saves you can generally get more out of Poleaxes. I just did the below real quick to show some averages. This is with units of 20 with the -1 rend rune, RR wounds (Runesmiter) and RR 1's to hit either from the generic CA or from the Runemaster: What it doesn't show is how much of that Poleaxe damage is MW's, but I would think that hitting NH or an unrendable Stonehorn would give Poleaxes the edge. By how much though, I don't know.. I'm sure someone can\has done more advanced math on it 😅

He sits at a weird point value. It both makes sense and doesn't at the same time. He's a great caster thanks to the +2, and also great in combat and can wipe units with warpfire.. I think if he was too much less it would be much stronger than a Warpseer in some regards which is why it makes sense where he's at. Bottom line is we have so many other units we need to bring in lists, like my recent ones where I run 3 threats instead of just 1-2. It lowers my hero count but I have more reliable damage sources which is generally how games get won.

It really just comes down to reliability if you ask me. Obviously if you're up against something like NH you would probably want the Poleaxes but.. against almost anything else, Broadaxes (especially stacked with the rend rune) are just far more reliable at wiping anything they're engaged with. Not to say Poleaxes won't either, I think they're just better against certain things and a double-pile in won't be as beneficial.

I really do appreciate it, seriously. We have a monthly "tournament" (quotes because it can be anywhere from 4-8 participants) on the 4th Saturday if every month and I try to attend each and get 2-3 games up the next day. I split mine 50/50, but I also don't really use him anymore. I agree with Cosmic though in that 4 Braziers can answer various units whereas Warpfire may only be useful against hordes. Could depend how the rest of your list looks. Corrupter/Grey Seer for Plague? Acolytes? Maybe you don't need Warpfire if you have those types of models.. without them and knowing your local/tournament meta uses a lot of 20+ model hordes I would say it's a reasonable investment to at least split them 50/50.

Shooting Fiends\30 Acolytes. Jezzails\WLC's can take out their heroes as well. As for the Crawler.. anything fast like a Doomwheel or some Gutter Runners coming from a board edge to hopefully make a charge into it. You could also just shoot it off the board potentially. 10 will do nothing for you, to be blunt. You won't be buffing them at 10 (they'll die quick if you give them anything but a Spark) and the only thing they'll be suited to shoot at is a unit of 10+ models for the +1 to hit. Against a 4+ save and getting +1 to hit (not from vigordust), 10 of them are only doing ~5 damage on average. Not really anything to fear, even if you're a horde unit getting shot by them. I would much rather bring 10 Gutter Runners for the same price who could perform better in melee and have more utility. The only place for MSU Acolytes (in my opinion) is if you're trying to run Gascloud or any Skryre battalion in which you want to be pure Skryre. Since the nerfing of max size Fiend units, I don't even think this is viable anymore.. you can run double Voltiks but you can still have room for 60 Clanrats if you want or MSU Acolytes still if you really want to go pure Skryre. At that point though, they're nothing more than speedbumps\screens for you Fiends to sit behind. I've been running them a lot as you probably know, but they are absolutely abysmal at anything less than 20-30.

So are.. many, many units in this game? The utility\damage it provides is worth it's price tag and there's a reason it's in nearly every competitive CoS list (at least HH and TE). You seem to think if a unit can be 1-shot then it shouldn't be used, and if that's the case you may want to play another game; that's just how it is. I have yet to have a Hurricanum be a priority target to any of my competitive opponents.. they're much more worried about the Hammerers, Irondrakes, etc. Also, OBR are not impossible to kill; shooting, MW spam (as you have stated) and high rend\damage units will still obliterate them. Fyreslayers and CoS\Tzeentch being wonderful examples. The only things people have "trouble" with is not killing the Harvesters that returns models.. without that, Mortek Guard crumble since they don't get RR's against shooting and they only have a standard 6+ death save, so I'm not sure where you're getting the 4+ from unless you're talking about the Harvester..? I dunno... OBR in Petrifex are not overpowered as has been clearly shown by it's recent tournament performances. They act in the combat phase in the most basic way by having hard defense in offense, but not much else; they are easily readable\beatable on objectives and wiping them off the table if you focus units. It does well for me everytime, especially in HH where it's basically required for the + to cast ability; anything else is liable to die if you roll a 5-6. People tend to grossly underestimate the MW's it throw out and the +1 to hit is invaluable for your inevitable shooting unit(s) that you'll bring along. I don't know how I would feel about 2 though.. I don't know that it would be bad, I just think 1 is enough and investing in other forms of shooting would pay off better.

Speaking of typical, I really liked the idea of the top Cancon list that went Hermdar with LotL + Forge Brethren. Seemed to built on stacking the HGB units down to 2-3+ saves quite easily, making them even more akin to OBR if I'm honest.. though it seems most just go for LotL + Vulkites for screening\objectives. Thoughts? I'm likely going to drop my OBR in favor of Fyreslayers so keen to hear it from the ones currently playing it competitively.

It would appear that Skaven have layers as well, not just Ogres. Truly a horrifying sight, you madman.

Well, I don't hate Monks but yeah I definitely don't care for them that much. They're certainly still good but I need to do testing with a Hell Pit before I can determine what work's better for me. To me, Monks want to get out front and I just don't play Skaven that way; I'm much more reactionary and passive with the army than I am with others. A Hell Pit suites that playstyle better as it's random movement generally means it will be kept closer to your lines and works better on counter-charges in the same way Acolytes do with their short range.. at least in my point of view. I don't find the use in 2 Bells but it isn't a bad thing and I see a good amount of tournament lists trying to incorporate 2. But I mean... if I had the choice of 3 threatening bully units and 3 support heroes or less bully units for another Bell, I'm going with that first option 100% of the time. Bells are random utility with their Peal of Doom and it often doesn't do enough as the average roll is between 5-8 and those MW's they put out are rather "meh" since it's on 4+'s.. you can't count on a VL summon and even if you get it they aren't going to equal the power level of Fiends\Acolytes\Monks\Jezzails\etc. That said, they can still cast and move after they're summoned since it happens in the Hero Phase and there's no text saying they can't move.. and being able to move a VL onto an objective for certain battleplans in which Heroes\Wizards count as X models or are the only ones that can control and objective is nice. But again, unreliable to have happen even with 2. Overall I'm a competitive player so.. my views on certain units are just the way they are. If you want to run 2 Bells because you love the idea of it then by all means go for it.. I encourage it. Like I said, from a comp standpoint having 2 isn't bad, but I think having 2 sources of MMMWP is better as well as having 3 threats on the table opposed to 1 or 2.

Check out my latest batrep in my signature (monthly meetup) to get an idea of what 30 Acolytes can do. I got all 30 into range against 20 Spite-Rev's and did 75 damage. Another game they wiped a Maw-Krusha and 2 Gore-gruntas in 1-turn with astounding amounts of overkill. I absolutely love them and believe they can carry lists as the output is nuts. Combining them with 2 other threats like 9 Jezzails and Monks\Hell Pit\Stormvermin\Gutter Runners and you have something solid. Generally advice comes down to "never combine them with Fiends" as they both want MMMWP and Vigordust to do any decent damage. You could use both if you run Deranged Inventor however so at least 1 of the units is RR hits. This also helps if you need to move your Jezzails but still want them to keep their hit RR's.. though I argue you should try to make use of Gnawholes with them as they're the best fit for Gnawhole teleporting aside from a Skitterleaped wizard using one to retreat back. As Skreech mentioned, they can be difficult to use now that they're on 32's. I find that they work best as a reactionary unit.. but I'm also a very reactionary player. They work this way by punishing heavily aggressive units for getting too close by being able to run the full unit 3" away to make sure everything is in range which is why they work well against things like Slaanesh, Fyreslayers, IJ, etc. Otherwise, yeah, it can be hard to get 20-30 in range.. but 90% of the time those 15 or so will still blow up what they're shooting at. They're weaker against shooting armies as anyone reasonably decent is going to prioritize them and shoot them off the board which is easy to do and they're damage drops off quick since MMMWP\Vigordust will slowly eat at them (hence why you typically want a unit of 30 to take wounds for a couple turns). For those curious, I did a quick mathhammer of the above between Fiends\Acolytes with either MMMWP or Deranged Inventor + Vigordust. Note that this also includes the +1 damage from a Spark: So, by just pure numbers if you wanted to take both, giving the Acolytes MMMWP and the Fiends Deranged is going to net you the most against a 4+ save while the opposite will be about 9-10 less damage against a 4+. Obviously you need to take threat ranges, resiliency and point cost into account as well.. but that's just the rough numbers and you all can decide what's best for you own lists 😉 The "problem" with taking both is that you'll have a harder time taking a 3rd threat without sacrificing points in hero's, Clanrats or Endless Spells. For example, you could take 9 Jezzails, 6 Fiends and 30 Acolytes with 2 Engineers + a Grey Seer and 60 Clanrats and be left with 1960 (or swap the Grey Seer for an AW and have 1980) so it can work. Alternatively drop the Jezzails for a melee threat like 40 Monks and you can still take a Screaming Bell over the standard Grey Seer and still have room for 20 more Clanrats. So.. as I'm typing this I realize there isn't really a problem as more and more people are moving to 60 Clanrats and doing reasonably well with it. Up to you if you feel you need more Clanrats or bigger heroes like Verminlords with extra CP's or really want to bring WLV. Sorry, I went off on a tangent again.. things like this get my mind turning and IT can sometimes have incredibly slow workdays 😅