Grimrock

As per the Khorne book, they can ally in Everchosen and Slaves to Darkness units, there is no specification for wizards. The only thing it says is Khorne can't take units with the SLAANESH keyword. You generally don't want to since there are a number of passive auras that mess with any form of magic, even friendly, but technically you still can. I was thinking and it's possible that they might change Pinks so they're not wizards anymore and just give them a better ranged attack. I thought that's what they were back in Fantasy, but I can't remember. If they did that then they could drop the points down and the gaunt summoner on disk would make a little more sense.

The goal for the lord on foot is to chase after a unit and try to get them to attack twice on something that really needs to die. It's a little tricky to do with knights, but the pre-game 5" movement can help if needed. I did a practice game and double tapping a unit of knights that multi charged some units (and attacked more units behind them with the lances) utterly gutted my opponents army, so there's merit at least. He's also a decent fighter and something I can just throw at objectives if needed. That said he's definitely not required for the army and is tricky to use, but I'm not sure what to replace him with. I'm not sure on the gaunt summoner. The summoning and movement to set up short range spells would be nice but he's really expensive for being so squishy and lacking any bonuses for casting. I think he'll be good in a Cabal army but I'd rather just run a sorcerer on manticore for Ravagers or Despoilers. He really does do some impressive damage, but he's a lot of points too. If you decide to try both let us know how they work out. I'm interested to hear how the lord on mount works too. I think I've settled on Khorne for the moment mainly because of the daemon prince. I want him to have one of the two really good command abilities (Nurgle and Khorne IMO, but I'm waiting to see if Nurgle actually sticks around), and since he's the general for a despoilers army everything just sorta follows suit. The Khorne aura is pretty solid as well so that helps. I do like the Slaanesh command ability, but it seems particularly difficult to set up in your list. You need to charge with two units and then hope your opponent attacks the second unit hard enough to trigger the bonus attack. If you throw in some chariots at the same time he can just attack those instead and you're unlikely to get the bonus. I think you might have issues getting work out of daemonettes in this army. I love running them in slaanesh, but missing out on the attack twice command ability and the extra hits on sixes really removes their biggest strengths. Hitting/wounding on 4's with no buffs really, really hurts haha. As a thought if you dropped them you could put 5 more warriors into each unit (to help keep the reroll saves around for longer) and then you're up to 230 spare points. Swap one chariot for marauder horsemen (more bodies now that you dropped the daemonettes) and you're at 260 which is plenty of room to put some monsters in.

Yeah I've been wrestling between the two. I settled on the karkadrak because I like the model a little more and the extra mortal wounds on the charge seems to match a little better with the battalion. Saving the 80 points could be interesting, if I dropped the extra command point I might be able to work something else in but I'm not sure what.

I agree, but he does have a decent chance at killing most heroes in one round so I think that's his goal. The general DP in a despoilers list is surprisingly useful for this. The extra 5+ save and d3 heal actually makes him pretty tanky, so he can happily crash into almost any foot hero and be able to survive the retribution from surrounding units. The 12" move, flight, and small base also make him decent at line hopping and targeting backline support if you roll decent on your charge. I think I've settled on a list for the time being, but there are so many options in this book I'm never really sure which way I want to go. The flexibility in the trait/artifact list in Despoilers is quite intriguing. Bonus move to set up buff auras or threaten objectives, bonus command points, and the Doombringer Blade is great for late game targets when you've moved out of your auras or they've died. I'd love to squeeze in another monster or two but I just can't figure out a good way to do it without sacrificing too much hitting power. I'm curious if anyone has any thoughts or suggestions on it. Allegiance: Slaves to Darkness- Damned Legion: DespoilersLeadersSlaves to Darkness Daemon Prince (210)- General- Sword- Trait: Paragon of Ruin- Artefact: Diabolic Mantle- Mark of Chaos: KhorneChaos Lord on Karkadrak (250)- Artefact: Doombringer Blade- Mark of Chaos: KhorneChaos Lord (110)- Reaperblade & Daemonbound Steel- Mark of Chaos: KhorneChaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- Mark of Chaos: Nurgle- Spell: Binding DamnationBattleline10 x Chaos Knights (360)- Cursed Lance- Mark of Chaos: Khorne5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)- Javelin & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Khorne5 x Chaos Marauder Horsemen (90)- Javelin & Shield- Mark of Chaos: Khorne1 x Chaos Chariots (120)- Greatblades- Mark of Chaos: Khorne40 x Chaos Marauders (300)- Axes & Shields- Mark of Chaos: KhorneBehemothsChaos Warshrine (170)- Mark of Chaos: KhorneBattalionsRuinbringer Warband (140)Total: 1950 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 137

For sure. I mean enlightened might be a little high on the curve, but certainly no more broken than some of the newer models. GW can be pretty fickle though, and there are a lot of tzaangor out there already. Doesn't make much financial sense to buff them since that might not translate to many sales. Might be cynical but in my experience it's extremely rare to have something really good in one version of a book still be really good in the next version. There might not be nerfs, but the power combos might be tweaked.... Huh, actually now that I think of it I bet Fold Reality changes to healing D6 wounds rather than returning D6 models. They can do the usual wording about returning D6 wounds worth of models and boom, enlightened are suddenly much less appealing without impacting their performance in Beasts of Chaos. Then they'll buff other stuff as usual and the book will end up in a good place.

Keep in mind that when Beasts of Chaos released the tzaangors got warscroll and point changes despite the fact that they were already a part of the Disciples of Tzeentch faction. I see absolutely no reason why the same thing couldn't happen in reverse this time around. The main reason why I expect it is most disciples lists have been revolving around tzaangors in one form or another since the book dropped (aside from changehost). GW tends to address that behaviour with new books, tweaking the strongest models or builds so they're less optimal and buffing the weaker choices so people will consider picking those models up.

If the Khorne book is anything to go by, I think we can expect something like this: massively simplified battalions. crazy stuff like changehost will be gone and replaced by single ability battalions with a variety of usefulness. there will be some gems and some duds like always simplified warscrolls. mixed weapons from the tzaangors removed and toolkits like the ogroid or gaunt summoner trimmed powerful terrain and endless spells. honestly this seems super obvious since it's tzeentch and tzeentch should really be the best at magic, but it's rarely been the case in the past so I'm not very hopeful a good points rework that helps internal balance, but still leaves some outliers models that haven't sold well in the past getting a solid buff, personally I'd expect screamers or exalted flamers/chariot flamers to be the standout option in the new book. maybe kairic acolytes. typically this comes along with nerfs to units that have sold well, so maybe expect a hit to tzaangor enlightened since the rest seems pretty balanced right now very few resculpts if any. with the way they're trying to get books up to par they've been cutting resculpts to the bare minimum. I could see a fatemaster or something similar, but it might be just as likely that they cut the model entirely (like they did with the slaanesh hero on daemonic steed) hosts with differing abilities, maybe casting buffs or summoning buffs. there are a few cults/daemon legions detailed in the lore of the current book, so I'd expect those. typically 2 for mortals and 2 for daemons Of course they might go completely off the rails and do something wacky, but this seems like the standard pattern for releases. If we get endless spells and terrain, and daemons still have a place in the army, I'll be pretty happy. Maybe a rework for the Lord of Change so I feel better about putting him on the board haha.

As far as I can tell he will still get the keywords from the various legions which is fairly unique for a special character, most of them come with their host keyword already. Everything offers something nice actually. Not sure if it's optimal but still nice. His extra command points would be really nice for ravagers since they're so starved. Despoilers can block line of sight to him which is ace, and the free 5 inch move at the beginning of the game pretty much guarantees an alpha strike. Healing would help too. Boosts to cast from the cabalists are always nice and he gets up close and personal more than most wizards so he can use those short range spells.

Yeah marauders are probably the best bet for Nurgle. I've seen some conversions from ghouls, poxwalkers, and reavers that all look pretty good if you hate the models. Chaos knights could be pretty good as well, they get really fast in Nurgle and offer a little more consistency than plague drones for example.

As far as I know it does since it doesn't specify otherwise. There are blanket rules for things like command traits and mounts, but spells are fair game. Same with Daemonic Power from the sorcerer lord. The list certainly looks like it could be fun, but I've never really loved kairics personally. Good with minimum units for cheap battleline but they never seemed to pack enough punch to justify going larger for me. Maybe the witchfyre coven is the piece I've been missing.

There are a couple good synergies for tzeentch. First, Infusion Arcanum is probably his best spell from the list. Tossing in a Lord of Change and/or Blue Scribes should almost guarantee his casting as well. Marauders go really well with his command ability, and destiny dice are quite helpful for their charge rolls as you only need to alter one dice and the other will always be a 6. A lord of chaos can make him fight twice if you really want, and would also work with marauders if Archaon gets out of range. Finally a S2D sorcerer is a must take for him, allowing him full rerolls on attack and reroll saves.

I think the book has some really potent tools for competitive play. I'll agree that the scrolls are a little underwhelming, but full rerolls are deceptively powerful and they're all over. I think a lot of people are underestimating how powerful models will be under the effect of all the various buffs. For example, take marauders. A full hit/wound reroll approximately doubles their damage output, and all it takes is a 3+ prayer or a cast on a 6. Add on the mark of nurgle from a general and 30 of them put out about 12 r1 d2 wounds and 28 r1 d1 wounds. That's about 35 wounds to a 4+ save, and they can go again for a command point. Compare to the base warscroll of 14 wounds to a 4+ save and you can see the difference. Then the tools from the legions are really potent as well, and seem surprisingly balanced. Summoning multiple back line units can be back breaking in some scenarios. Blocking line of site for free is killer. Ignore battleshock is... Shocking haha. Bonuses to cast with the lore is really good as well. Honestly the biggest weakness I've seen competitively is the battalions are a little weak. 1 drops are possible which is good, but they're expensive and the abilities are pretty poor outside ruinbringer. Even with that I think they'll do really well and I'm mostly just excited to get some more table time.

Depends on what you're planning really, 20 man units will work for screening and quick alpha strikes but 40 man units have some staying power while also needing hero babysitting for inspiring presence. They take targeted buffs better and they have the numbers to take a hit and still have their bonuses. I'm planning on 40s personally.

Honestly it's pointless for people to argue the weapons at this point. The rules can be read either way and people are only going to be convinced when the FAQ drops. Send an email to the FAQ team and just don't build any models until they give a conclusive answer. There should be lots of other stuff to work on in the meantime.

I think if you're going to include any slaves units you pretty much need to go all in and bring the support too. On purely face value the scrolls are overpriced, but combined with support like full rerolls to attack, wound, and save they start becoming much more attractive. Personally I'm having trouble placing chaos warriors as well but knights and marauders are very interesting.

Well there's your problem. If you automatically assume the magic focused sub faction is useless, then of course the magic is going to look worse. I do think think Cabalists have potential, the spells are really good but have huge weaknesses so you have to build to make them work. Take the trait to make the cast boost ritual go off on a 2+, the artifact for auto ritual on a clutch turn, take cogs or balewind for extra casts, snake cultists for regenerating sacrifices, portal to guarantee range for one spell... It's a lot of investment sure, but being able to use those spells reliably might be worth it. It'll be fun to see if someone can make it work. Really the biggest weakness I can see for the cabalists is a lack of cheap double casters to put down endless spells.

I think there is a real reason to run marauders in max size units for a few reasons. There is some issue with battleshock for sure, but if you run one or two max then you can cover it with a pocket command point in an emergency. First, I've run larger units of 25 mm bases and I've found its very viable to get 30 models in at once, especially with the massive charges marauders should get regularly. That makes the output for a large unit about 50 percent higher. Second, I think the rend is worth quite a bit more than you give it credit for, especially with the save reroll that's starting to proliferate through the game. Against a 4+ save with 30 models you'll kill 10 with no rend, 13 with rend. With a reroll that turns into 5 with no rend, 9 with rend. Almost double the effectiveness. Third, big units take buffs a lot better than small units. It'll be tougher to manage the wholly within bubbles but getting 40 models with full rerolls to hit, wound and save is obviously better than 20. S2D has great buffs but you only have so many so getting the most out of them is key. In my eyes marauders are essentially mortal plague monks. They're faster, more resilient, more expensive, but get access to extremely similar buffs. So just look how the monks are typically run. Also, I've been thinking about it and funny enough it seems like Archaon really just wants to run big blobs of marauders instead of elite units. He solves the battle shock, has a bigger buff bubble for larger units, and they're the best target for By My Will since they die so easy.

Short range and only in the hero phase is killing it for me. Usually when an enemy unit is that close in your hero phase it's already killed whatever it went in to get, so the fight last effect will typically just give you some flexibility in activation order. It has a potential combo with the khorne daemon prince command ability leaving alpha strikers high and dry, and maybe it'll help when you have a chaos lord and need to double activate before the enemy can fight, but otherwise I don't think the ability will do much.

Well I played him a decent amount in the past but it was all in the god marked armies. Typically there the name of the game was building a list around him so you could buff him to the nines and leverage his combat strength. Do that, kill anything that threatens him, and then let him dominate the table. I think that can still work in the new book. I'm planning on running some marauders since they seem to be the best target for By My Will, and then sticking as much synergy in as possible. A bloodsecrator is great for all his attack profiles, and wrathmongers if you can keep up with him. A bloodstoker is great to let him alpha strike and reroll wounds. The sorcerer is his best friend, similar to a warshrine. Maybe a harbinger of decay for resilience or a great unclean one for more speed. Lots of options but points are tight so you'll have to pick carefully. I haven't done a ton of list building with the everchosen subfaction yet but it doesn't seem to make anything harder. I'll spend some time on it when I get my book.

Where do you see that? I've been looking at the scroll on the AoS app and as far as I can see all of the prayers can be used by a shrine regardless of its mark, and they can target any S2D unit regardless of their mark. The only condition is the stronger effect is reserved for a unit whose mark matches the prayer. As far as bringing units into the army, I think a blob of 40 marauders and a chaos sorcerer might have some merit. 410 points so it's not nothing, but using the spell on them puts their damage output to absolutely ridiculous levels. Perfect for clearing screens and letting keepers into the big stuff behind. They've also got a minimum 9" charge in godseekers which makes them more than fast enough. Something to keep in mind if they nerf depravity into the ground and we need to start making a more standard army.

Just hoping to clear something up because I've seen a few people mention warshrine prayers. I've been through the warscroll a few times in the app and I don't see any requirements on the shrine's mark for what prayer it can utter. So a khorne marked shrine can still use the undivided prayer right? The only thing I can see that cares about the mark is for the target unit.

Looks like the summoner on disk doesn't need the realmgate anymore, but it's also only once per game.

Bloodreavers are definitely not on 25mm bases, they'd be much better if they were. They're 32, same as the Blood Warriors.

Love it, now I've got a good excuse to use him with my slaanesh. With 20 wounds I think he's got good potential.

Don't forget the marauders, their buffs are absolutely massive. Double the attacks, guaranteed +1 to hit and -1 rend at 20+ models, minimum 8" charge with a drummer. Toss in a sorcerer lord for full rerolls to hit, wound and save, a chaos lord for double activation... if they stay at 120 points for 20 I think they're in the running for best battleline in the whole game. Chaos sorcerer is amazing too, the change to his spell and oracular vision are ridiculous. I'm waiting to see points, but I'm loving these changes.