Dolomedes

I'm in agreement that there's an overabundance of MWs in the game, and it's certainly having an effect on strategic gameplay. I play Beastmen, and have done since day 1 of AoS. What I love about them is using all the little movement mechanics and ambush shenanigans to win by out manoeuvring your opponent. It's a hard craft to master, but when it works it feels great. In the new BoC book, Bullgors lost their super high rend (they were one of the first units with rend -2 damage 3). Now they deal truckloads of MWs instead. 6s to hit deal either 2 or 3 MWs, depending on the damage characteristic of the weapon. Bullgors also deal MWs on the charge on a re-rollable 2 up. If your Bulls have a Doombull nearby, you can charge with them in the combat phase and deal all those impact hit MWs again. So, a unit of 9 Bulls (in Galletian Veterans) can ambush in, roll a 5" charge (Bestial Cunning command trait), deal 9 MWs and kill their target, then charge again to deal another 9 MWs, then roll their attacks to deal another stack of MWs to whatever isn't vaporised on the charge. Obviously this is hideously powerful, and now 6-9 Bullgors have just become an auto include in any beast list. There's practically zero counter play to it - I just drop 9 Bulls and the opponent takes 18 MWs on 2 charges, followed by combat where I'll probably deal double figures of MWs in combat. Predictably this annihilates the opponent's key pieces, and if the Bulls don't get killed by a counter punch, they'll probably do it again. Competitively, I absolutely love my murder herd of cows, but it sets a standard that no other damage dealing hammer unit in BoC can compete with. It's such high output, with practically zero counterplay, that all the other damage dealers are just irrelevant. Using all the cool little movement shenanigans and ambushing our book has is a waste of time when you can just drive a trainload of MWs right into your opponent's face and kill them on impact, then do it again! Bulls used to be a glass cannon, but now they have such massive MW output that they just don't give a hoot about getting hit back.

I've spoken to lots of competitive BoC players that swear by 30 with shields in allherd. It's becoming an 'auto include' because it can soak some pretty serious hammers. In GV their damage output isn't too shabby either for when you want to head out on the offensive.

Alpha striking 9 Bulls with Bestial Cunning seems pretty Khornate to me. You could go Quakefray and take Cygor priests in place of wizards. Khorne Ghorgons are very much a thing in the lore already too.

Here's some of my findings so far: Centigors are a different unit when you take them in a 10 and run them as GV (they aren't mounted, they are the mount). You can safely get all 10 to do their attacks. 10 are doing roughly 10 damage against a 4+ save (herdstone buff included, so it's 5+ really). 10 shots before will do just over 3 damage. Put +1 to hit on them, and with shooting you're almost at the 15 damage threshold to be a hammer. Extra attacks from their ability and a +1 to hit gets them to almost 20 damage, which is comfortably hammer territory. With their decent survivability and extreme movement, they make for a solid choice to just go and smack objectives in the early game. 5 won't really do anything, but 10 are a decent threat. My plan is to use them on turn 1 to cap objectives and bait my opponent into overextending, setting up excellent ambushes. If they don't deal with them, it'll be another hammer for them to contend with when all the bulls show up. If they do get tagged in turn one, just retreat and charge to where they need to be. If you're lucky, you might be able to taunt something into position so they can get a good trade. Bullgor MWs are brilliant. 6 Bulls are auto include. I'm running a 6 and a 3. The 3 do enough damage to be a potent counter punch, and if you're taking the Doombull (which of course you are) then having 3 sat around to chuck into combat will likely win you some engagements. I think Cygors are finally worth it - hooray! Their ability to ****** someone's magic phase up is so useful, and they can get a bit of damage through too. Their prayer ability can dish out a surprising amount of damage, and if they're batteline, you can use one to be a bodyguard for your bray shaman. Taking Dirgehorn as a cheap 30 point spell for it to snack on and heal is a decent play. They aren't an immediate threat like the Bulls are, but it's still something you can't ignore. They aren't quite a hammer, but the utility they bring and the synergy with a bray shaman can justify their inclusion. Chariots are crazy cheap for what they can do. They're solid screens and cheap MW output that can be reliably delivered. If they aren't screening, they make for a good counter punch. Again - it's something your opponent can't really ignore. Combo charging them is easy, and especially potent if you're running bulls. Charging a chariot and a unit of Bulls into something will do a hefty amount of damage. If it kills your target, then you can tap the Doombull to get the Bulls to charge again.

Enjoy Edit - This table doesn't show the herdstone rend bonus.

@The Red King @Popisdead @Myrdin Attached is a spreadsheet that's been built with all damage values, pts per wound etc. As we've been discussing these things for years in the other thread, I figured you'd all like to see it. I didn't make it - it's from the AoS Coach - BoC Discord Channel, made by a guy called 'Eat Bray Love'. Dual axe bulls are now king for damage. With AoA they have huge spike potential. Interestingly though, the great axe bulls are now +3 to hit, so if you want an option that hits almost as hard but don't want to burn a CP, great axe might be for you. Using the bestial cunning command trait (set up 7" away, for 5" charge) to drop 6 Dual Axe bulls into something nasty has seen some success as an alpha strike. It kills almost anything. I'm tempted to go for 9 bulls with shields so I can make a death star unit that does 9 MW on the charge. That can usually blow up a screen. Keep a Doombull with them to get them to charge in the combat phase again. Dual Wielding Gors are pretty hard hitting for their points. They're not far off Bestigors. If you can charge them, and keep a Beastlord with them, you can fairly reliably get them fighting first in most situations, negating the need for a higher save. If you take the Allherd fray, 3+D3 come back anyway. Finally, a use for our stacks of Dual Axe Gors from 8th Ed! Tzaangors are probably the most points efficient unit in the book that I can see. Massive damage, good points to wound ratio, and they retain their run an charge unlike everything else. Chariots are a winner in my eyes. For their points, they do a solid amount of damage and can spike fairly well. I might be incredibly biased though because I have 4 nicely painted and I really want an excuse to run them. I think there's alot of tech and toys to play with, but ultimately this book is going to win games by playing your infantry right. Bodies on objectives are what win games. Copy of BoC_AoS3_stats_by_Eat_Bray_Love (003).xlsx

I'm really excited to play them. Sure, the points increases really sting, but I really like the look of all the cool Skirmishing units we have now. I think stacking up all the little 8" range attacks we have whilst setting up our big charges will be key. Centigors and Chariots look like the units for me.

Looks like we can use Minotaurs as infantry. Great axe Minotaurs as Galletian Veterans looks like the play imho. I'll still be using Bestigors as Galletian vets. Not sure which aspect to take yet. Of course, all of this is in pencil til we get our new book.

Decent tech there. Might be worth packing a decent caster to make sure we can get the spell off. I'm waiting to see what 'infantry' is defined as. I've got a hunch that we won't be able to use Bullgors and Dragon Ogres.

So I'll assume that folk have seen the new updates for season two - if not, here's the link. https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/12/21/generals-handbook-2023-a-time-for-galletian-champions/ What are we thinking lads? Doombull and Minotaurs time to shine? Beastlord and Bestigor combo? Maybe we can acchieve something tasty with Dragon Ogres and Doombull? Or is all speculation pointless til we get our new book?

Ta! Got another game tomorrow night against a nasty Skaven list that beat me last time, but only by a single point. It should be a good test of how much extra welly my list has with 12 Dragon Ogres in it. I love Centigors too, got 20! I bought my first 5 on my first trip to Warhammer World, and the other 15 were a gift from someone who used to run the Ghorros Centigor list in 8th (they're metal and everything). I think having a big stack of Centigors is the hallmark of a true Beastmen player - you've either forked out megabucks for them for the sheer love of the Beastmen model range, or you've been playing them so long that you got them in blister packs back in the day. Either way, you're committed. I remember those debates - 8th ed was a strange time for us. The two-weapon 40+ Gor block with strength BSB was an alright unit, but you're pretty much always relying on rolling hot, because every other army had way better infantry. I distinctly remember an interview with the guy who was running a Minobus Centigor list after he won a fairly major tournament. It was a massive deal that someone won a tournament with Beastmen, and the way he did it was by trying out completely off meta units. Nobody knew how to deal with it. Ever since then, my mindset has always been 'what can I do with this crappy chaff unit to make it slap'. Years of playing Beasts has taught me that the way to win with them is to play well but also have some sort of trump card chaff play. So one Shaggoth stays at the Herdstone - the one with Hailstorm. He's the Herdstone protector and generates summoning points by cutting himself and Primordial Roar, which he heals back up. The second Shaggoth has Sundering Blades and Horn of the Tempest - he's there to give Dragon Ogres Run and Charge, additional rend, re-roll 1s to hit, and Monstrous Rampages. In short, one Shaggoth is for offense, the other is for defence.

Got a game in on Friday with the above mentioned list. I got the double out of turn 1 and tabled my opponent. Here's a rough batrep! Opponent was Hedonites of Slaanesh, battleplan was silk steel nests. I deployed 2 units of Bestigors, the Beastlord and a Bray Shaman off the board, as planned, so I could get a good setup and that bonus point from the battle tactic. Opponent set his archers in a line, using them as screens for his leaders. The hellstriders screened the front of the archers, and the Soulgrinder was put on the right (my right) flank. I deployed back a few inches from my line so I could goad him into moving out of his deployment zone and break up his line. Herdstone was in the centre, with a Shaggoth, the Bray Shaman general, the Bullgors, 10 Bestigors and the 10 man Centigor unit screening. I deployed a unit of Dragon Ogres on each flank. I put my other Shaggoth on the right flank to buff my Dragon Ogres with the intention of killing his Soulgrinder. I told my opponent how fast everything was, especially the Centigors. He panicked and took the first turn, because he didn't want to get boxed in. The 2 units of hellstriders moved up - both were 3" from my Dragon Ogres. He wanted to screen them out. Rather unexpectedly, he moved the block of Daemonettes up too and charged my centre, where the Centigors were screening. His rationale was that the Centigors were going to fight the Daemonettes at some point, so he'd rather get it done without me activating charge buffs. He pulled in the Bullgors and the Bestigors as well on the charge. He killed off 3 centigors, but they swung back and killed 14. Everything was in herdstone range so I didn't lose much to BS. On my turn, I ambushed his back line, charged the Dragon Ogres, killed the Soulgrinder, all screens, and finished off the 30 man Daemonette blob. I summoned a Chaos Spawn on my backline to give the Dragon Ogres additional attacks going into the Soulgrinder. I got 6 points. I won priority and chose to go for the double because I figured I could table him. The 2 units of Bestigors charged Sigvald and killed him, the Gnarlblade Beastlord went mental and 1 shotted the Keeper of Secrets, Dragon Ogres went into all the archers with Centigors and Bullgors and cleaned up. The strategy worked well - get the opponent panicking from the start and just be ruthlessly aggressive. Use the ambush to set up a double envelopment. Probably confirmation bias on my part here, but I think the 10 Centigors played a big part in getting the easy win. Not only did they screen out the squishy stuff (Bullgors, Great Bray Shaman, Herdstone) but they also did some heavy lifting in combat. Saying 'This 10 man cavalry unit has a 35" threat range and it's BH' made my opponent panic and throw all his screens forward to pin them, right into my centre. It broke up his line which meant I could out manoeuvre him. They did alright in combat too. Looking forward to going up against a tougher army soon.

I've been doing a bit of Math Hammer in the last 2 days and I thought I'd check out the 10 man Centigor unit. I've added re-rolls to wound on the spears, the rend -1 from the Herdstone and +1 to hit from being drunk. Due to coherency rules I've only added 6 sets of hoof attacks. This should be fairly easy to achieve. Here's the results: In terms of average damage output they aren't very far away from 10 Bestigors on the charge. Obviously you'd be sending these into something squishy. If you can get more than 6 models to deliver their hoof attacks then they'll out damage 10 Bestigors. If these get into some Galletian Vets as Bounty Hunters (should be easy), then it's goodnight. As they've got 2 weapon profiles they're a good contender for the +1 attack from a Chaos Spawn, or Sundering Blades. Hopefully I'll get a game in tonight.

Keep popular battle plans from season to season. Why bother writing a bunch of ****** battle plans that people just re-roll, when there are great plans from previous seasons that could just be readjusted. Fewer actions - there's too much rules bloat that favours memorisation over skill. Sack off faction specific battle tactics and simplify the existing ones. Design changes should be made to minimise the amount of time spent looking stuff up and rewarding good strategy.

Aye I've got several hundred Ungor of various descriptions ready to go, and a few chariots. Years of collecting has left me with a hell of a sideboard! I tend to summon Chariots and Centigors more than anything else because they can impact the game quickly. I'm thinking of summoning a Chaos Spawn turn 1 to get that sweet +1 attack buff where I need it, but in this list, I could well be wanting more bodies. I know 10 Centigors is off meta, but I'd recommend trying it if you've got em. As I say, they always get their points back. Having the ability to just delete an infantry unit turn 1 and then pull them back to screen out half the board is so useful. They're such a reliable unit, and don't really need any support to be effective. They're like a bargain bin version of Tzaangor Enlightened on disks, that can also screen. I've not played with my Taurus yet - I've been stung too many times by over-relying on magic and failing the cast when I need it. Personally I'd always rather spend the points on something that's reliably going to get on to the table and do exactly what I want when I need it (like Centigors). Everything in that list can do it's job (multiple jobs in some cases) without relying on fickle dice. No screens could be a tough play, but I've played for years behind screens. Since WHFB 8th ed Beastmen have been mostly about setting up screens and doing fiddly movements to get your glass cannons in. Considering how well BoC are doing in competitive play right now, I'm betting that there's going to be some nerfs incoming and we'll be back to our usual movement/screen shenanigans next year, so I'm going for a full elite powerhouse army whilst I have the chance.

I go for 10 rather than 2 5s because a 10 can function as a hammer. Get em drunk and watch them wreck. 2" range on the spears usually means you get em all in combat on the charge, so the coherency only really effects the crappy 5+ 5+ hoof attacks. I've got 20 Centigors, and I've been playing a 10 and 2 5s for a few weeks to see what works. Every game I've been amazed at how effective the 10 man is for 170 points. Definitely with you on Centigors in BH - it's deadly. The plan isn't to summon screens, but rather to summon chaff to sit on objectives whilst the hammers (almost the whole army) go to the middle to get lifting done. Centigors blow up their screens, the rest moves in to kill, and summoned units sit on objectives. I'm replacing screens with pinning and aggression.

Some cracking posts in here. I'm playing in a league at the moment, and there's probably about 16 of us with decent lists who are all loving it. I'd say it's more on the competitive than casual side of things, but it's not suffocatingly so. We sometimes even outnumber the 40k boys. There's definitely something to the competitive side of things that gets people playing, doing hobby and enjoying themselves. I've played AoS since day 1 and have seen every edition. I play Beastmen - they're my only army. I know my army inside and out, but 3rd edition is the first time I've ever had to write a cheat sheet for it. Not because my list has got complicated - the BoC scrolls haven't changed for years. It's the rules bloat. Heroic actions, battle tactics, monstrous actions etc etc. It's impossible to remember and play a smooth game. The battleplans also seem to be becoming more bloated - alot of them we just don't play because they're lame. I had the most fun playing in 1.0. It was simple, and I could play with a fun narrative army. I could show up with 200 goats, and my mate would show up with 200 Skaven. Sometimes we even played 2400 points and just filled the board with as much stuff as possible. We'd play from the campaign books and have a blast every time. I'd love to rock up with hordes again and get invested in the narrative of my own battles, but there's so much stuff to track that you just can't do that in 3.0. I'd end every game with a migraine on turn 2. No way could I run my old list where almost every unit was maxed out. Lists now tend toward low drop elite armies where you don't have to do much thinking in game. I agree with the sentiments about rules bloat. I think someone with a cheat sheet that's memorised all the tactics, plans, actions and learnt the most beneficial way to play these in their army is always going to smash a new player. It's not even particularly skilful. Be honest - how many of you play games with scenery rules? Even though they're years old rules, I rarely see people using them because everyone forgets about them mid game. I'm fortunate to have a great community around me, but I could see why people would be put off or want to stop playing. There are so many little interactions now that weren't there at the start, and if you don't know them, you just won't have fun. A competitive player could have a massive advantage by just deciding not to prompt their opponent if they missed activating something obvious. In summary - fewer additional rules but keep it competitive. Games should be won and lost in deployment and movement, with some decent dice rolls. If it's less complicated people probably will find it more accessible, and we'll see more fun armies. I think a nice place to aim for should be that pretty much any army can beat the top meta if a newbie rolls hot.

I've been posting here years, but never posted a list. Here's my list for a league I'm playing in for the next 2 months. It's super aggressive, with high mobility, and built to force the opponent into taking lots of difficult decisions from turn one. Allegiance: Beasts of Chaos - Greatfray: Gavespawn - Mortal Realm: Ghur - Grand Strategy: Take What's Theirs - Triumphs: Bloodthirsty LEADERS Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (155)*** - Artefact: Horn of the Tempest - Lore of Dark Storms: Sundering Blades Dragon Ogor Shaggoth (155)*** - Lore of Dark Storms: Hailstorm Beastlord (95)*** - Artefact: Mutating Gnarlblade Great Bray-Shaman (100)*** - General - Command Trait: Unravelling Aura - Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns Great Bray-Shaman (100)*** - Lore of the Twisted Wilds: Vicious Stranglethorns UNITS 10 x Bestigors (125)** Expert Conquerors. 10 x Bestigors (125)** Expert Conquerors. 10 x Bestigors (125)** Expert Conquerors. 6 x Dragon Ogors (290)* Bounty Hunters. - 4 x Paired Ancient Weapons - 2 x Draconic War glaives 6 x Dragon Ogors (290)* Bounty Hunters. - 4 x Paired Ancient Weapons - 2 x Draconic War glaives 10 x Centigors (170)* Bounty Hunters. 6 x Bullgors (260)*** - Great Axes CORE BATTALIONS *Bounty Hunters **Expert Conquerors ***Warlord ADDITIONAL ENHANCEMENTS Artefact TOTAL: 1990/2000 WOUNDS: 169 LEADERS: 5/6 BATTLELINES: 3 (3+) BEHEMOTHS: 0/4 ARTILLERY: 0/4 ARTEFACTS: 2/1 ENDLESS SPELLS & INVOCATIONS: 0/3 ALLIES: 0/400 REINFORCED UNITS: 4/4 DROPS: 12 2 units of Bestigors go in ambush with the Beastlord and the Bray Shaman that isn't the general. placing 4 units in ambush lets you see how you're opponent is deploying so you can react to their drops rather than guess. The aim is to get the bonus point from taking 'Barge through enemy lines' as the battle tactic. It's also setup for getting 'Desecrate their lands'. I'll probably keep the 3rd unit of Bestigor back to hold an objective in my territory. The Beastlord is there to be a suicide distraction for turn 1 and 2, and the bray shaman is there to buff the Beastlord and Bestigor's movement for when it's needed. If the opponent commits to killing these, they'll open up their front. If they ignore them, they'll get a nasty rear charge. Either way, you're forcing a decision. The 10 man Centigor unit is there to punish bad deployment. Odds are the opponent has placed their G Vets by 5th drop. I'll deploy them near the bray shaman turn one so they have the 17" move with run and charge. With sundering blades on them, they're really punchy. 40 rend -2 attacks, with +1 to hit (drunk) and rerolls to wound (spears) can punch a hole in most things. If they can get into Galetian vets, they usually kill them to a man. At 170 points, they pretty much always trade up. If there's no suitable targets, they hang back and screen out a chunk of the board til there's an opening. They're good contenders for a rally too if they take damage, as they can reliably get right back into combat. Dragon Ogres and Bullgors move up with the Shaggoth with Tempest Horn, but don't commit. They'll sit on objectives waiting til turn 3 for rend -2, and defending. The Beastlord, Centigors and Bestigors in the opponent's face is more than enough for them to deal with. If there's a juicy target, the Dragon Ogres have run + charge from the Shaggoth to capitalise. The high mobility of the Dragon Ogres and Centigors means they can pin targets and work as a mobile anvil. Once pinned, manoeuvre Bestigors and Bullgors to act as hammers. The plan is to have summoned in some chaff by this point so objectives can be sat on, freeing up the harder hitting units to hit things hard. One Shaggoth is for defence - the one with hailstorm. Hailstorm is used to stop/slow monsters trying to blow up the herdstone. He'll hang back and cut himself at the Herdstone too, then probably move up mid game. The defensive Shaggoth will cast Summon Lightning and use Heroic Recovery to keep his health topped up. I'll keep the other Bray Shaman near him too, along with the 3rd unit of Bestigors. The Bray Shaman's are both using Vicious Stranglethorns, as the 24" range means it's pretty much always able to be cast, and there's almost always a decent situation to cast it in. I find the other spells niche and situational, usually with too short a range. The ambushing Bray Shaman is usually trying to cast devolve to pull the enemy away from objectives and into the ambushing Bestigors & Beastlord. The defensive Bray Shaman will cast Stranglethorns and mystic shield. The Shaggoth that's going up with the Dragon Ogres & Bullgors will be casting Sundering Blades (-1 rend) or Summon Lightning (gives rerolls to wound to Dragon Ogres). I don't have much chaff in this list, which is not what I'm used to. Usually, I'll get my wins by screening out and taking board control, but there's only 1 screen in this list. I'm hoping that the more offensive playstyle will compensate for it, and the Dragon Ogres with Bullgors are killy enough to deal with big threats. It's lower model count too, so it may be susceptible to strange magic & shooting.

Morning boys - I'm picking up my dragon ogors today. I've got 12 to build. Starting an AOS league this Friday, and some of the lists in there are pretty nasty, so I figured I'd go heavy on our flavour of the month. Even with the points increase they still look pretty strong imo. I'm thinking of building them into 2 units of 6. 4 with paired weapons, 2 with glaives so they can all get their attacks in. My current list has 2 Shaggoths - one for herdstone camping, and another for going up the board to do monster stuff, casting hailstorm, locking a magic phase, support etc. I think I'll keep both Shaggoths so the dragon ogres are all getting those sweet re-rolls. Experienced Dragon Ogor players - what's your hot tacs n strats for getting the most out of our lizardy subfaction? What units do they work well with? What's a waste of time?

I think you're right about it being match up dependant. Most folk I play aren't running high model counts, so it's not that useful for me. In the instances where it would be useful, I'm usually committing 20 Bestigor, which tend to kill everything on the charge anyway. I think it's done well in tournament lists with incarnate. You can bind a bray shaman to the incarnate and get him to kill himself at the herdstone, making the incarnate wild. The direflock then becomes an enemy spell you can use to direct the incarnate, or eat so it levels up. Did the tourney list have an incarnate in?

Sounds about right. It's could also be moved by a charge, pile in or some other shenanigans. It's best moved in the combat phase with a pile in or charge, so it's taken off the board for the combat phase, then set up where you want it for the battleshock phase. Kind of janky imo - I'd rather take the horn, or another chaff unit.

I think it's likely to be dragon ogres too. The herdstone has made them really, really strong. Additional rend, the 4+ save, rerolls (1s to hit, wounds from a spell) from the Shaggoth, the 4+ rally, high wound count, multiple sources of healing and high movement all for 125 points. They don't really have a downside. Compare them with Bullgors, for 130 points: Better movement. Better save. Higher wound count. Better hero support. Similar damage output. Similar access to healing. 5 wound models, counting as 2 for objectives. Probably some other stuff I haven't mentioned. I think you could balance Dragon Ogres nicely just by increasing their points cost to 150-160. Maybe the Cockatrice should go up a bit too. I really, really hope they leave Brayherd alone. They feel just right at the moment. Just the right amount of punch, but you still have to be super careful with your engagements and manoeuvring or everything dies and runs away.

Aye, it's not clear. DoT wouldn't technically be an 'allied faction' in BoC as it's on the Tzaangor Shaman's warscroll. I suspect it isn't legal, but as it's been legal before it's a grey area. Should know before the end of the week for sure.

It's pretty murky but I wouldn't be surprised if it's illegal. Got someone in GW to ask the rules guys for clarity - hopefully should know for sure by the end of the week. This article would suggest that we can cast it: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/01/03/rules-preview-disciples-of-tzeentch-endless-spellsgw-homepage-post-3/ FAQ is in order.

No dismounted version of Skyfires, but there are changes: Now at 4+ save. Vicious beak wounds on 3+, changed from 5+ (same for Enlightened). 'Guided by the future' changed. Skyfire bows now ignore negative modifiers to hit, and positive modifiers to opponent's saves. Pretty nuts. Tzaangor Shaman no longer adds +1 to hit. Shaman - 135pts. Skyfire - 190 pts. Enlightened 95 pts. Enlightened disc 180 pts. Tzaangor 175 pts. Tzaangor Shaman's Sorcerous Elixir changed notably. Extra spell is still cast once per battle, but instead of rerolling one of the dice, it's now +3 to the casting roll. This means we have a decent chance to get a high cast endless spell off if you take the shaman. With the shaman's high mobility, you're likely to be able to cast it anywhere. Purple sun, cast on a 5+, wherever you want. The shaman is 135 points, and the sun is 90, so it's a 225 point investment. Even with the purple sun's nerf, I think that's seriously worth considering. Check out this video to see how effective it can be: The big winner spell for me though, is the 'Burning Sigil of Tzeentch', at 50 points. The Tzaangor Shaman can cast it, as it's a 'Disciples of Tzeentch' wizard. 18" range, cast on 5+, no movement. At the end of the movement phase, roll D6 for each unit within 9" (including yours). On 4+ take D3 mortal wounds. If any models are slain, before you remove the model, you can set up a 'Tzeentch chaos spawn' within 3" of the unit. I think this might need a FAQ, but as far as I can tell, if you're playing with a BoC army, there's nothing stopping you from taking the 'Tzeentch Chaos Spawn' from the BoC book rather than the DoT book. This means you can give it the 'Beasts of Chaos' keyword, and if you're running the Gavespawn greatfray, it would gain the 'Gavespawn' keyword. You could then use a CP in the following combat phase to give +1 attack to a friendly unit like a regular gavespawn chaos spawn would. I've checked FAQs, keywords and rules this morning to double check that this is legal, and I can't find anything suggesting that it isn't. Obviously this is a hideously powerful spell in a Gavespawn list. It's even worth casting at your own units imo, especially on primordial call summons. I'm getting my Malagor model on a 40mm base ASAP so I can run him as a Tzaangor shaman.