readercolin

If I could make an army entirely out of dragons, I would. Speaking of which, I was VERY disappointed when they cancelled the Ordo Draconis range, as the Lord/Archmage on dragon look a TON better than the nonsense that is the black dragon. All this being said, the current GW dragon range is pathetic. You have the derpy as all get out Black dragon, and the Stardrake, and that is it for the entirety of Order. Moving on to Chaos, you have... Archaeon's Mount, and that is it? Destruction gets the Mawcrusha. And finally death gets the Zombie dragon... and that is it. 5 different dragons between the entirety of the 24 different factions. What should there actually be though? Destruction totally needs to get Wyverns back. They also totally need some "Great Beasts" that get corralled and pushed into battle by the forces of destruction. As for death, the fact that there isn't a nighthaunt "Ghost Dragon" is a tragedy that really needs to get remedied. Ossiarch Bonereapers have been collecting bones for a long time, and totally should have been collecting the bones of great beasts from Ghur as well, and a Bone Dragon is something that they could totally be doing. For Chaos, they used to have Chaos Dragons and frost wyverns and stuff. What the heck happened to those? Especially for Slaves to Darkness - they are already suffering from not having any good monsters (outside of Archaeon), and giving them a good chaos dragon would be great. Finally, Order. WHERE ARE THE DRAGONS?!? There used to be tons of dragons between the dark elves, the wood elves, and the high elves, and now there is 1. Fyreslayers totally need some upgraded magmadroths - magma dragons anyone? I think there used to be a forgeworld one of those. Why are treelords the only big monsters for the Sylvaneth - give us a dragon of wood and vines! Lumineth Realm Lords also totally need some dragons as well. And stormcast need more than just a stardrake. Especially with out big dragons are in Lore, their lack of representation on the tabletop is criminal.

A few thoughts. First off, I'm not sure that a second spell is all that helpful vs having a 3rd artefact. Admittedly, the ravagers artefacts all kind of suck, but I have never particularly appreciated Mask of Darkness when I have run it in the past, mostly just because it only goes off on a 7 and was always really unreliable for me. Second off, I can't say that it would ever be worth it to run a block of 10 chaos knights. Even in 2.0, their bases are so big that it can be a struggle to get them all into combat (I think my record was managing to get 8 into combat at once), and the new coherency rules just makes that even worse than it was before. Also on the subject of the knights, I would always run the Ensorcelled weapons, because Knights struggle to get charges off, and even when they do they struggle to kill whatever it is that they charged. The only time I have been impressed by a knight's charge is when I run them with a Khorne Daemon Prince to make it harder for my opponents to get their own charges off. Aside from the above, your list looks decent for something that is trying to move up the field and then sit there. However, you are really lacking in killing power, and are going to be trying to just overwhelm your opponents on objectives with your summoned warriors.

Big clarifier on this, due to rule 19.3.3, you cannot cast an endless spell that was removed from play on the same turn. This isn't the end of the world though, because you can still get 1d3 on cast, 1d3 on movement in your hero phase, and 1d3 on movement in your opponent's hero phase (unless they dispell it)

It is a neat trick, and if Horde armies become a thing in my local meta I'll probably consider it. However, at 75 points per (or 150 points for a pair), I would be a little concerned that it would be a waste of command points. It does pay off more if you are playing a city that can get a lot of command points though (ex. hammerhall).

This is a bit sad: A Blades of Khorne army can include coalition units (see below) as follows: - 2 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Slaves to Darkness faction that has the Mark of Chaos keyword. Those units must be given the Khorne Mark of Chaos keyword. - 1 in every 4 units in the army can be a coalition unit from the Beasts of Chaos faction. Those units gain the Khorne keyword. A Blades of Khorne army cannot include coalition units with the Slaanesh, Tzeentch or Wizard keyword. COALITION UNITS Coalition units are ignored when determining if the units in the army are from a single faction. Coalition units cannot be generals. Designer’s Note: Coalition units are not allied units, so the limitations that apply to allied units do not apply to them. This means that coalition units can be given one of your army’s enhancements, as long as they have the correct keywords or are of the correct unit type needed to receive it. Similar text is there for Slaanesh, Tzeentch, and Nurgle. This is a few nerfs for people like me who have a core of Slaves units, but also used them for various god factions. No more Karkadrak's leading a Blades of Khorne army, and I also can't just take my slaves to darkness units, toss in a bloodthirster or two and put it under the Khorne banner. That being said, nothing here talking about Coalition units says that they can't be your battleline, so unless that is stated somewhere else in the rules (that I can't find at the moment) you should be able to take some blocks of chaos warriors/marauders as your battleline for the various god factions, filling out the rest with the various cool units from their armies.

No, this was removed because the rule is now in the Core Rules under Enhancements (specifically, 27.3.4). 27.3.4 SPELL LORES Each time you take a spell lore enhancement, you can pick 1 spell for each Wizard in your army from any of the spell lores available to that Wizard (you can pick different spells from different spell lores for different Wizards). Each Wizard knows the spell that you picked for them in addition to the other spells they know. If they didn't remove that line from the battletome, you would be able to pick 2 extra spells for each of your wizards to know.

FAQ's are now out. Instead of just losing an ability entirely with no more empowered spells, Cities now casts endless spells with a +1 to their cast. So at least we got some compensation. Handgunners/Sisters now get to use unleash hell without a command point being issued or spent. Maybe someone else can answer the question of whether or not this means multiple units can unleash hell or not because the command isn't issued, or what happens if you issue the unleash hell command and then another unit charges a unit of handgunners. I'm not 100% certain. It isn't exactly clear how the various cities (Tempest eye, living city, etc) are affected by the coalition rules. Yes, there is still the 1/4 units can be from the other faction as part of the coalition rules, but what isn't clear is whether or not this means you can do something like 2/4 cities, 1/4 stormcast, 1/4 KO, or if the coalition rules are limiting you to 1/4 non-cities units period. That being said, there is a very solid nerf in that the coalition units can't be generals, so I can no longer have a stormcast hero leading a bunch of cities dudes.

Are lumineth a problem? Yes. Sentinels are an issue, and need a nerf. If they didn't have their 30" range ignore LOS shot, or didn't have their mortal wounds, they wouldn't be the problem that they are. But the fact that they can basically cover the entire board and blow up small hero's, chip away at big monsters, and still unleash hell when someone charges their screen makes them a bit broken. But then lets look at those other factions you mentioned. Shootcast. The old shootcast lists worked on the principle of taking a block of 9 longstrikes, shooting in the hero phase, and shooting again in the shooting phase. Reinforcement rules say you can no longer do that - the max you can have is a squad of 6 longstrikes. What do 6 longstrikes do? 6-7 damage (depending upon save) in the shooting phase, and 5-6 if they unleash hell. Previously, they were doing 10-11 damage per shot. If we compare previously, an anvils shootcast list used to put out 20 damage per turn (hero phase and shooting phase). Now, if a squad of 6 can shoot in the hero phase, shooting phase, AND unleash hell, they are putting out 19 damage. Don't charge near them? down to only 12-14. Additionally, at 2 wounds per model with a 4+ save, a squad of 6 has 12 wounds total, for 370 points. This is in the range of "I charge with just about any melee unit and wipe at least half of them out from the charge - even after they unleashed hell on me". Try putting 2 units of longstrikes in your list, and your second unit is half the punching power of the first, because of the restriction on command abilities only being able to be used once per phase. Will people still try that? Sure. But I have a very strong feeling that that playstyle is now dead, just because it was already struggling to do well in 2.0 and the nerfs to it aren't helping. Next up, KO. Lets take the best shooter in the KO force - an Ironclad. An Ironclad will put out ~15 damage to a 6+ save, ~10 to a 4+, and ~5 to a 2+. When doing unleash hell, this changes to ~11 to a 6+, 7 to a 4+, and 4 to a 2+. Is this good? Yes - and it damn well better be, because that Ironclad ain't going to do anything in melee, and that is literally 1/4 of your army. However, you will notice that the ironclad is extremely affected by saves. Want to charge it with a blob of chaff? You are probably going to regret it. Want to charge your big beefy monster into it? It might manage to bracket the monster, but that monster is then probably going to melt it in return. Additionally, the monster can use the various monstrous abilities, and the Ironclad cannot. Does all of this mean that KO is a pushover? Nope. They are probably still a pretty solid army. However, between losing battalions, general points increases, the smaller tables giving them less room to maneuver (and their opponents an easier time getting in close), and buffs to monsters and magic, KO aren't really coming out ahead in this race. Lastly, Seraphon. If what you are worried about is Salamanders unleashing hell, all I can say is "lol". Unleashing hell, you can expect a reinforced unit of salamanders to do ~2 damage. Is it bastiladon's that cause you fear? Well, a normal bastilladon shooting attack deals 6 damage to a 6+ save, or 4 damage when unleashing hell. Yes, you can do tricks with them to shoot in the hero phase, but this means a single bastiladon went from 12 damage per turn to 16 - and from 8 to 10 against a 4+ save. Was it the skinks with 2 attacks each doing mortals on 6's? Ok, these are actually mildly scary, but keep in mind that they have been nerfed from 40 man blobs to 30 man blobs (and restricted them so they can only run 2 of those at most), and with only a 16" range they are fairly vulnerable to being charged from outside their range, meaning they get 1 unleash hell before they are deleted from the board. In every single one of these cases EXCEPT for the sentinels, we can see that one aspect or another of the core rules changes is swinging the pendulum away from them. Whether it is buffs to monsters, nerfs to unit size, or changes to command point usage, they are all feeling some sort of effect from these changes that reduces their comparative effectiveness. Does this mean that non-lumineth shooting is dead? No - I fully expect shooting to be part of the meta going forward. But I HIGHLY doubt that non-lumineth shooting is going to kill every other army and playstyle out there. All this being said, Sentinels are clearly overtuned for what they can do, and either need a significant points increase, or need to lose either their extra range or their mortal wounds.

Speaking as someone who was halfway done making an Order Draconis army (with kitbashes for the knights) before it got axed, and is now making a Cities force based around a Phoenix Temple core, I'm really leery of this talk about un-souping the cities. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't mind if the cities got re-worked so various units worked a bit better together. However, the idea that people are thinking about pulling units out of the cities to form new factions is supremely annoying, as that would be the second army that I built that was broken by GW (not counting what happened to my high elves and wood elves from WHFB and the move to AoS). If there is a new "Dawnbringer Crusades" book, I would rather it be its own thing, or an extension of the Cities that still keeps all of its units. As for this talk of bringing the various dwarfs out of the cities, I wouldn't object if this new dwarf tome worked more like Belakor's army from the Wrath of the Everchosen book (which can include any daemon units). Having an army that can bring in Dispossessed, Fyreslayers, and Kharadron Overlords with its own set of rules could be fun and interesting. However, I would hate for it to become a soup tome that eliminates the Dispossessed from the cities and shoves Fyreslayers and KO into one book that eliminates their own army lore.

So, assuming you want a new army, there are a few options. Beastclaw raiders (ogor mawtribes). There while game is about the fact that they are running around with big burly monsters that hit like a truck. There are valid army builds that include 6 monsters total. Foot ogres don't need too much support either, but do need slightly more, so you have space to expand if you want. Tzeentch. We aren't too sure how the best way to play them will be, but if you just want to throw flamers/horrors on the table and go to town, you will have a valid army. Stormcast Eternals. Yes, there are some synergies, but most of them are stick a single hero with a unit to get an effect (ex. Any hero next to longstrikes in anvils for shooting in the hero phase, or stick a lord-ordinator next to ballistas). But you can pretty easily build your army around independent units, or units that need just 1 turn next to a buffer to accomplish what they want.

Core rules section 20.0. "Each friendly Priest can chant 1 prayer that they know in your hero phase."

All the rules regarding artefacts (that I can find) are in section 27.3 (enhancements). There are rules that a single hero can't carry more than 1 artefact, but I can't find a single one stating that you can't have the same artefact twice. I wonder if this is an oversight that is going to get FAQ'd, or if this was intentional. Because I would totally consider running the arcane tome twice for 2 more casts/dispells in a bunch of my armies. Heck, 2 armor of destinies would be worth it if you are running a pair of big monstrous hero's who otherwise have no ward save.

Ehh, hearthguard got another huge nerf. Previously, they were taken in blocks of 20. Now, since MSU is 5, they can be taken at max as a block of 15 - and you can only have 2 blocks of 15 in your entire army at 2k points. This is probably the biggest reason they got only a small points change, just because how they are played is going to have to change a bit.

So to look at the armies that I have: Cities of Sigmar. This one is a real mixed bag. Winners are things like the hallowheart wizard spam lists, and it is a lot easier to get endless spells going now. Lists built around some of the big monsters are also winners (phoenix's, dragons, griffons). Additionally, the fact that many other lists required building around battalions and cities didn't really have any good ones is a bonus for the cities, as it levels the playing field a little bit. That being said - there are some clear losers as well. Anyone who was running 40 blocks of freeguild guard are going to be sad (and freeguild guard in general are just sad as well due to the limits on +hit buffs), and handgunners are going to be sad able to make use of the Freeguild General's bonus to hit. I am also curious how they are going to rule on the Scourgerunner Chariot, because they ruled it doesn't get its leader bonus unless it is in units of 3 now, and now you can take 2 units of 3 in your whole army if you give up on all other reinforced units. Overall, cities as a whole will probably be fine, but individual people's builds are probably shot now. Stormcast Eternals. Another mixed bag. On the upside, new units, and everyone else losing battalions (while stormcast battalions... were rather poor) helps even the playing field. Stormcast also generally liked to be taken as MSU anyways as well. However, there are a number of downsides as well. The two competitive lists are broken (starcast and shootcast). Shootcast is broken because you can no longer take blocks of 9 vanguard raptors, and splitting them into 2 units doesn't help either as you can't issue the shoot command in the hero phase twice. Starcast is broken because a big part of its appeal was being able to shove a bunch of +save bonuses on a stardrake so that it lives long enough to affect the table, and now it can't get more than +1. For more general units, Evocators (foot and kitty riders) are now sad about the coherency changes, and Desolaters need a whole new warscroll as they got bonuses for how many models were in the unit... and they now can't take more than 4 models. However, with the new models coming and a new chamber opened, at least stormcast are going to get a new book soon, so everything should work out in the end. Slaves to Darkness. These guys were hit hard. A lot of the power of slaves was worked into being able to drop in battalions and use them in other god armies. For the other God armies, I have a feeling that something will happen to allow them to continue to be used in their armies (it was like half their gimmic anyways). For the battalions, well, good luck. For more individual units, Chaos Warriors are hit hard by this change, as they really wanted to be run in big blocks but are now hamstrung by both coherency rules AND reinforcement rules. Knights are now unplayable in blocks of 10 (not that they were particularly playable before either). However, now you can run a block of 60 marauders, which should be hilarious to see sometime. As for the monsters, not many of StD's monsters were particularly playable in the first place, but maybe now you'll see more manticores running about. However, the biggest benefit for StD is the new surplus of command points - they used to be a CP starved list that really wanted to use a ton, and now they are going to get double to triple the CP's, which is going to drastically improve their play patterns. Moving on to armies that I have collected pieces of (primarily to include with my cities): Sylvaneth. As long as the breaking terrain features leaves the trees still as wyldwoods to benefit from unit warscroll abilities, sylvaneth seem to be coming out ahead with these changes. Yes, you can no longer dryad spam, but that wasn't that great a list in the first place anyways. But bringing some treelords/durthu/allarielle/drycha there are some significant benefits from the new hero/monster tables. Kurnoth Hunters aren't huge fans of the coherency changes, but at least they only really got taken in blocks of 6 with scythes, which had 2" reach anyways. However, none of this really helps as far as bringing them in as allies of the cities, because a lot of their features still require wyldwoods anyways. Kharadron Overlords. Boats are still good, and the army was frequently taken as MSU anyways. The reinforcement points aren't a huge impact, as you generally were still building around being able to put units on boats in the first place. However, losing their battalions does suck, and the lack of monsters in the army is doing them no favors either. The smaller board sizes also mean less room to run around. As far as allies for the cities, bringing a boat or two can still be quite good for Tempest eye anyways, especially if you keep the boats near a hurricanum. The rest of the units kind of suffer as allies though, and you would probably be better to take cities units instead. Lumineth Realm Lords. Were you taking an army spamming archers/spearmen with a few hero's? Yeah, the reinforcement points are going to get you. Were you bringing Teclis and his pals? Great, your army is fine. For the most part, Lumineth suffer from the reinforcement points changes, and that is about it. Everything else they are either fine with, or it doesn't really affect them. As far as bringing them as allies in the cities, well, you can no longer bring a block of 30 archers. For every other unit that you would consider bringing though, you are coming out about the same or ahead though.

In case you haven't made the choice yet, or for someone else who comes along and is wondering the same thing: The "best" choice is a set of magnets so that way you can swap which unit they are. However, if you don't want to magnetize, or don't trust your skills when it comes to magnetizing, or for whatever other reason want to have just a single unit, then these are your considerations. Concussors are probably the best if you are running Stormcast and want to bring a unit of 2-4 models down from the sky. The prevent pile in effect, mortal wounds, and general decent damage is all pretty good. Fulminators are probably the best if you are wanting to bring a unit of 2-4, keep the unit on the board, and have a heraldor to regularly get charges off. The key things for Fulminators is that if they don't get the charge, they do less damage than Concussors. However, if they do get the charge, they do a good bit more damage - specifically, a single model on the charge deals an average of 2 more damage than a concussor, while off the charge it deals an average of 2 less (numbers given vs a 4+ save). Additionally, if they are sitting on the field, they are a bit tougher because they get a +1 to save against ranged damage. If you are running a Living City list, they can come in from a board edge, "attack" with their ranged weapon, move 10", and nearly guarantee a charge. The guaranteed charge means that a squad of 4 fulminators can be expected to go through a 30 wound unit with 4+ saves on average on the charge, while a squad of concussors can only be expected to go through a 20 wound unit. In a more traditional stormcast list, fulminators inability to get in range and get repeated charges off means that they tend to be a little less reliable than concussors. Then we get to Desolators. Want to bring a squad of 4? Concussors are better. Want to bring a squad of 8? Now desolators make sense. Additionally, they are slightly cheaper than the other guys, so it isn't quite as backbreaking to bring a big unit. To be honest though, the damage of large groups of desolators isn't a huge buff over concussors or fulminators, with the desolators doing an average of .5 more damage over concussors, so the real payoff here is that a squad of 8 of them costs 120 points less than a squad of 8 concussors/fulminators. Finally, Tempestors. I really struggle to come up with a time that you want to bring these. Get them close to enemy ranged units and they give a -1 to hit bubble. But otherwise they do as much damage as a squad of fulminators off the charge. However, at 190 points per pair, they do at least come in cheaper than Fulminators/Concussors, so if you really want to run some Guard but are pinching the points, I guess they make sense.

Some possible armies: Cities of Sigmar. There are a TON of different ways to play them, and while most (and the most effective) versions involve having some buffing hero's, not every build needs them. Some of the best units without buffs are Phoenix Guard, Sisters of the Watch, Eternal Guard, Scourgerunner Chariots, and shadow warriors. You can also get some interesting results from Monster Mash with Hydra's/Kharibdyss, or spamming Demigryph Knights or Pistoliers. Stormcast Eternals. The "meta" lists that run Anvils of Heldenhammer and try to double-tap people require hero's, or try to mortal wound out the board with Stardrakes and Incantor + comet are going to struggle against hero sniping. However, you can still be effective with something like a Gav-Bomb, as your relevant hero and hard-hitting unit will be sitting in the sky and be able to avoid on board damage. Heavy Cav lists with Evocators (on kitty) and Dracothian Guard lists also are relying more on the power of individual units and not the synergy, which can make them useful. Note, if it is just individual units that you want to push the power on, you can also stick just those units in a Cities shell. Kharadron Overlords. The power here isn't in the hero's, its in the ships and the mobility. As long as you still have your ships, and can jump anywhere on the board, you should be able to concentrate your firepower on picking apart your opponents army. This being said, if your opponents have ways of burning through your ships fast, it can be an issue, and KO also have a problem actually holding objectives while keeping enough concentrated gunpowder. Tzeentch. Here, it is less about having an army that isn't dependent on the hero, and more about being able to get a 1 drop list. And then you can go in and wreck your opponent with the standard flamer list and give them a taste of their own medicine. Ogor Mawtribes. Specifically, looking to run a beastclaw raider list, and just run a bunch of stonehorns. Yes, the list is rather concentrated, but at the same time, each body is powerful enough to be pretty independent. Sons of Behemat. You have giant... giants, and their power is pretty concentrated. Your opponent also isn't going to be burning through the 35 (or whatever it is) wounds each of your big giants have. All this being said, if your primary issue is facing against Lumineth deleting your hero's, I would say that Tzeentch or KO are your strongest counters, with a focus on eliminating their hero's first and then working through the rest. If you don't want to switch away from your cities though, you can look to add a few units that are more independent to your list and work from there.

For knights, here are some of the frequently tossed around "proxy" ideas: Blood Knights. These are the easiest stand in, and you can fairly easily get blood knights with some shield and head swaps. Also makes sense as an art project because these aren't common run of the mill undead, they are all vampires. If you still want to use them in the cities, you can use the Mercenary Company rules to bring a block. Alternatively, get a Vampire on Zombie Dragon and you have a solid death army (note, 40 knights and 1 vampire lord on zombie dragon is 1880 points, leaving you space for an endless spells, or a block of dire wolves and a command point, etc.). Dark Riders. Dark riders are dark elf cavalry running around with a 4+ save, so a bunch of guys in armor makes sense for them. Just give them some crossbows on their back and you are good. Chaos Knights. Hang some skulls from them, do some shield swaps, add a bunch of horns, and some iconography and you have a big ass block of Chaos Knights with lances (1280 points worth). The only real problem with this is that chaos knights tend to be a bit bulkier, so the brettonian ones might look a bit small next to a typical chaos knight, but when you already have 40 of them it isn't that big of a problem because you likely won't be putting these knights next to standard ones. Any of the above three options should be easy for you to get with just some painting, and maybe a few extra bits or small swaps. Anything beyond that though and you are starting to look at some pretty significant alters, or just going straight up into proxy territory. Alternatively, you can use your knights as brettonian knights using the legends rules, and see how well that works out. I'm sure 40 knights is enough to come close to a full army.

Honestly, if you want to bring endrinriggers, I would look to bring 1 gunhauler/frigate/ironclad. This adds an entirely new dimension to what they can do, and gives them a solid place in your army that can't really be replicated by pistoliers. Firstly, the boat gives the whole KO contingent Fly High, allowing them to re-position to anywhere on the board. This means that you can be nearly constantly threatening the backfield, forcing your opponent to keep units back or potentially lose objectives. It also allows you to quickly re-position to threaten one side of the board and concentrate your firepower there. Without Fly High, you do still have a 12" movement range, but that still isn't anywhere near the same type of mobility that fly high allows. The second thing that the boat gives you is additional long range damage. Give a gunhauler a drill cannon, and have the 2 long ranged weapons on the endrinriggers and you have a very strong hero-sniping block. Frigates and Ironclads don't have quite the same range, but do come with significantly more firepower which kind of makes up for that. Overall, I would happily take a gunhauler + 6 riggers over 15 pistoliers, as an added dimension to the threat that your army can give. However, I wouldn't take 2 gunhaulers, or a single frigate because then you are stuck in a position where you need to completely wipe an opponent off of an objective, rather than just mostly off of an objective, and they just don't quite have the firepower to pull that off, which drastically reduces the backfield threat that the KO units pose. 6 riggers on their own also don't really add enough as a new dimension to how your army can threaten the board, as they are more or less just "more of the same" with a highly mobile threat, even if they do get to add Fly to their threat and the pistoliers don't.

My mathhammering: Save Riggers-Melee Riggers-shooting Pistoliers - shooting Pistoliers - Melee 2+ 2.83 2.33 2.22 1.43 3+ 3.81 3.33 3.33 2.86 4+ 4.80 4.33 4.44 4.29 5+ 5.78 5.33 5.56 5.72 6+ 5.83 6.00 6.67 7.15 - 5.89 6.00 6.67 8.58 This comes from the riggers being in a group of 6 with 1 skyhook, 1 grapnel, 4 rivet guns, 4 saws (including leader) and 2 gun butts. The pistoliers are a 10 man squad, with all of them getting in shooting attacks and melee attacks (arguments can be made about not getting all 10 in, but that isn't represented in these numbers). Note that this means that against a 6+ save, a unit of riggers that shoots + charges is going to deal an average of 11.83 damage, while a unit of pistioliers who shoot, charge + shoot, and then melee will deal 20.49 damage. It is possible that you were getting higher numbers because you had your full squad loaded out with saws, not with the grapnel launcher/skyhooks. By doing that, the shooting damage of the riggers is unchaged at 6+ save (though at 5+ and better saves you can knock the .33 off the shooting damage from the table above), but the melee damage jumps from 5.89 to 7.78 before saves. If you were finding my statements to be hyperbole, this is probably the reason why. However, I was trying to keep the loadout of the original person who suggested bringing riggers.

The problem with bringing endrinriggers is that you have to ask "what do they really bring for me". If you are looking at a countercharging unit, you could bring 10 pistoliers instead, which can deal more damage in just their shooting phase than the endrinriggers can in melee - and that isn't even counting shooting after charging. If you were bringing a gunhauler that would let them re-deploy around the board, I could see an argument for it, as you can move them to wherever they are needed, even if they had just been sitting in the backfield till then. But since your list isn't bringing a gunhauler, it becomes much more difficult to justify the unit. Overall, I just don't think that endrinriggers justify their points in a cities army.

Apparently you didn't read back where I did a more in depth review of knights and their weapon loadouts. Here is it for a fresh review. Looking at just the weapons (separating the ponies damage out, because that is going to be the same across loadouts), without buffs a unit of knights will do the following: Ensorcelled Weapons: 7.11 damage to a 6+ save, 4.74 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 7.33 damage to a 6+ save, 6.11 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 3.06 damage to a 6+ save, 1.83 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 2.08 damage to a 6+ save, 1.25 to a 4+ This means that before we start counting bonuses, ensorcelled weapons do almost as much damage to 6+ save chaff as lances, while doing 1.37 damage less to a 4+ save. However, as soon as you are stuck in combat for more than a round, we can see that the ensorcelled weapons jump FAR ahead - especially against tougher units. Additionally, there is one last point that REALLY stands out. If you add up all the damage, neither loadout will allow a unit of knights to go through a 10 wound block of infantry on average. But wait, you say - BUFFS! Well, lets look at those. However, first, a word of caution. After 4 months of playing with Knights (would be more, but the virus has kind of halted my gaming...), I will say that unless you are being VERY selective, you really, REALLY need an 18" aura to get that mark of chaos buff consistently. Otherwise the knights have a tendency to charge out of your 12" bubble due to their enormous bases. But numbers, we want numbers. Khorne General Aura: Ensorcelled Weapons: 10.37 damage to a 6+ save, 6.91 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 10.69 damage to a 6+ save, 8.91 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 4.46 damage to a 6+ save, 2.67 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 3.24 damage to a 6+ save, 1.94 to a 4+ Here we can see that with a set of buffs, we can finally go through a 10 wound infantry squad on the charge. Yay knights! Ok, if they are a 4+ save squad, there will be 1 guy left on average with the ensorcelled weapons. Of course, if its a 20 man squad, the ensorcelled weapons can go through them in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances will do a lot of damage on the first attack and then take another 2 rounds after that to finish off the squad. Yay. Of course, you could have a chaos lord on foot nearby to allow them to pile in and attack twice, but slaves are so CP starved that you can't do this regularly - and you probably have better units to use it on (if he's even in range to do it). Also, doing that precludes putting the Karkadrak buff on them as well. Speaking of which, lets add that karkadrak buff: Khorne General Aura + Karkadrak buff: Ensorcelled Weapons: 12.96 damage to a 6+ save, 8.64 damage to a 4+ save Lances (charging): 14.26 damage to a 6+ save, 11.88 damage to a 4+ save Lances (no charge): 5.94 damage to a 6+ save, 3.56 damage to a 4+ save. Ponies (all): 4.32 damage to a 6+ save, 2.59 to a 4+ Yay, we can now go through a 10 wound squad of infantry with a 4+ save. For a 6+ save, lances can almost go through a 20 wound squad (~18.5 wounds on average). Course, against a 4+ save, the ensorcelled weapons can get through it in 2 rounds of combat, while the lances are going to be 1/2 a point of damage short on average. Overall, if you can consistently get a charge off every single one of your turns, the lances MIGHT be worth bringing, as long as you have all the buffs. Without the buffs, the lances are too pillow-fisted to actually go through a target though, so you can't really recommend them. However, this is assuming that you can get a charge off consistently. From my own playing with them, this seems unlikely, because their 10" move makes them really, really slow for a cav unit. Unless of course you have a Khorne Daemon Prince about who is making it hard for your opponent to charge, in which case the charges get much easier. Of course, that is CP's spent on that though, which means that you aren't really going to be able to do that AND provide Karkadrak buffs.

Not really. First issue - the start collecting boxes don't give you any banners/musicians, which means that you will either need to kitbash them or you will need to source those from elsewhere. Second issue, the knights come with lances. Objectively, the lances are terrible. Yes, they do slightly more damage on the charge, but significantly less when they aren't charging. To make it worse, with or without lances, you don't really have enough damage to reliably clear off whatever you charge, which means that you are going to be having to rely on the damage of the non-charging knights the following turn to finish it, and they really can't. Third issue - Chaos warriors should only be brought in groups of 5 for MSU, or groups of 15+. For 5 models, you are bringing them because they are 90 points for battleline. For 15, they are enough of an anvil that they can be worth bringing (ish). However, for a 10 man unit, your opponent only has to deal 2 damage and then you lose your save re-rolls. For a 15 man unit, you at least have 12 wounds buffer with your save re-rolls. Without the re-rolls though, the warriors are a wet noodle and aren't durable enough to be worth their points. You might be able to make a list that is mildly competent with those models just by re-arranging your units. Something like this: Archaon (general) Karkadrak 20 Warriors 10 Knights 3 Varanguard However, you are still going to be better served by changing the warriors out for something like marauders, and swapping the Karkadrak out for something like a sorcerer lord on manticore, or getting a warshrine in, or something along those lines. On the other hand, if you are looking at this as a way to start your army, then you can look to try your list and then expand it out from there.

I agree that concussors are strong choices. And as you can see from the numbers, it isn't like fulminators are head and shoulders above everything else. If you are planning to use the units as a "I'm coming in and sticking around", then concussors are definitely better. If however you think you can free the unit up, or if you bring along a knight-heraldor to give you retreat+run+charge, then fulminators become a lot more appealing. Do keep in mind though that earlier damage is more impactful than later, simply because you can expect to lose models. In general though, the damage difference is low enough that you can pretty easily get away with whichever looks cooler. Sure, in a squad of 6, you save 90 points by going with desolators rather than fulminators/concussors. Considering that you can do that and bring another squad of cheap units, this is an argument in favor of the desolators. However, then you have to decide whether or not you want to bring a squad of 6 rather than squads of 2 or 4. Then you also need to decide whether it is still worth it if you are expecting to lose models each turn. Overall, if you are willing to run them in a big unit, then sure. For smaller units... not so much.

I have a two answers to this question. The first is to answer the question in the thread title - which FACTION has the best battleline. Here, I would choose Cities of Sigmar, not because any one of their units stands out as the best, but because they have so many options for battleline. This means that you can find a unit that does what you want your army to do, and make it battleline. Want a brick wall? Phoenix Guard battleline. Want shooting? Sisters of the Watch or Irondrakes can be battleline. Want mobility/screening? Scourgerunner Chariots can be battleline, as can dark riders, pistoliers, and outriders. Yes, many of these require a leader tax to be battleline, but usually that leader is something you want to bring anyways because it is going to buff your units. If you are looking at one unit that is the best at trying to be everything, I would say probably Chaos Marauders. They work as a screen, because you get 20 bodies on 25mm bases to take up board space. They work as a hammer, with guaranteed 8" charges and then being able to put a 3+/4+/-1/1 damage profile down. They work as an Anvil, because you are paying 8 points per wound. And most importantly, they are battleline for Slaves to Darkness, Tzeentch, Khorne, Slannesh, and Nurgle, meaning that if you get 3 units of these guys you can literally play whatever book you want. This makes them a flexible unit that you aren't going to be upset about putting into your army, no matter which army you bring.

Stardrakes are... ok. However, if you look at the only competitive usage of them, you are looking at a "starcast" list which is looking to run a stardrake, a second stardrake or Celestant prime, and a caster with the comet. The problem with trying to do that in a living city list is that you can't bring 3 stormcast units (especially when they are as expensive as stardrakes), and the living city lacks good mortal wound output to replicate the effect otherwise - especially at range. However, without trying to use the rain of stars to eliminate support hero's leaves you with a giant pillow as the centerpiece of your army. Outriders are kind of underwhelming. If you want damage, you are going to want to bring an infantry unit. If you want mobility, you are better off bringing scourgerunner chariots (where a unit of 3 will deal over 2x as much damage as a 10 man squad of outriders for only 10 more points). And if you want something that can shoot and then command point move, you are generally going to want to bring something that can effectively use that to charge into melee. Yes, you can get a good number of bonuses onto outriders, making them a 3+/2+ profile between a general and a hurricanum, but to do so you are forcing them to stand still. Basically, they just aren't efficient enough for their points, so you don't see them. This is easy to see if you run the numbers. On the charge, an equal number of fulminators will always do the most damage (6 damage/model), followed by desolators in groups of 6+ (5.5 damage/model), and then finally concussors (5.33 damage/model). However, if the number of models drops below 6, concussors outdamage the desolators, though both units will always outdamage fulminators that aren't charging. However, this is half the story. The other half is that it is extremely easy to get charges off with your dracothian guard unit because you can deploy them on the board edge, shoot, scoot in to 3" range, and then get the charge off. Lastly, there is the question of how many points you can push into the unit. Having to take a 6 man unit of desolators is VERY expensive, and it is hard to justify pushing 570 points into that rather than other available units. However, dumping 480 points into a pack of 4 fulminators/concussors leaves you with that unit and enough points for another battleline unit, or a hero, while still having enough punch to be worth bringing.