Heijoshin

Where'd you hear the rumour, Hollow?

What are the rumours? (And where from if I may ask?)

This is very disingenuous, and you probably know it. Libs cost 100, Mortek cost 130. If fluff is actually an issue, then you would have remembered that OBR aren't "skeletons" in the sense that you are meaning it. I can understand People's "Lib and SCE being poo" issue and heck, I collect SCE too! But then the issue is with with making SCE better, WHICH WILL HAPPEN. I get it that older books aren't as good, but they will get updated. This is a fact of life. Have we all forgotten that Seraphon, a super old tome, got updated? Should the ten commandments be found, i'm sure we'll discover there are actually 11 commandments and the 11th will be "SCE will get a new book. Obviously. Like seriously guys......jeeez". In the words of the Grand Vizier of Agrabah, Jaffar: Patience, Iago. Patience.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you too with some points. Competitively I have no idea what they will be like. I think the army has a high skill ceiling and many potential synergies. In the middle tables and for average gamer, it has some serious NPE possibilities which people will not like.

It's an interesting list, and one that I have also tried, but it doesn't bring out Teclis's strengths in my opinion. As someone mentioned, using Teclis with Sentinels can do a lot of damage T1 without ever having to really move. With regards to the spells, flinging out Storm of Searing White Light through a spell portal is brutal. It's D3 on a 2+ and D6 on a 5+. How many units does the average army have? 7-10? Lets just say this spell does 2 wounds per unit on average, that's 14 - 20 wounds. It also has the potential to wipe out 5 wound heroes like nothing. Again, I know you said "he's just magic", but you CAN get your points worth from Teclis just on spells alone. Let's say your average point per wound is 9 points for the sake of this example). What's 14 wounds per round over 5 rounds? 630. Obviously this will fluctuate and / or degrade and I know he may die sometimes and you won't get a full five rounds. My point being that just from one spell (autocasted might I add - Will come back to this). Teclis has the potential to basically earn his points back. Because it's not just 18" in radius. Given the size of his base, you basically have a a 40" diameter on this spell (36" for the spell and I am just going with 4" for his base size. Might be bigger or small, I dunno). That is about 104 Inches squared. The table size of a typical AOS game is 288 inches squared. So almost half the board covered. Obviously we're not talking Katakros level 72+" diameter on his abilities, but for all intents and purposes (especially if you play on tighter scenarios like focal points - and the fact LRL are a smaller army) it's basically board wide. I also don't think it can be overstated how good a 4+ ignore spell or endless spell is either. This is something which few warscrolls have. Archaon has it on a 4+, and Varanguard have it on a 5+ for example. Teclis gives it in a 16" (not wholly within) bubble. Also flinging back D3 when you do it? This truly is crazy. Sure, the 5+FNP is wholly within 18". If you're outside of that, well your unit champ or other hero can cast the same same (at reduced range). I know your counterpoint is "but he gets shot easily" and of course that is true. 16w on a 4+ that can be 3+ for a turn isn't the best but my answer is: and? There has to be a weakness somewhere. Also, it's not like this is a unique weakness to him only. T1 alpha shooting against a Katakros, where he's also 3+ (as he doesn't get his command ability off until his first turn) would also kill him. He does get a "Look at sir!" however but the difference isn't as big as you think. At the end of the day If someone wants to shoot off either of these heroes and can... they will. Even if you take him down to almost dead, he is neutered from them on and you can easily finish him off whenever you want. If your argument is "but T1 alpha shooting", then isn't that an issue with the way T1 shooting is, rather than Teclic himself? My last point about the Kharadron is realistic probablities. Let's say you walk up to a 60 player tournament with a LRL list and you are worried about T1 shooting from KO or DoT or something. If you put both of those at 5% of the turnout, you can expect 3 from each to be at the tournament. Ok, but how many of those are going to bring the 1 drop T1 list? Maybe two of them? Really, in the end, what is the likelihood that you would face them? To use your own phrasing for a minute: I can assure you, people had the same worries about OBR and they did just fine in the competitive scene. As I mentioned in my first comment in this thread, what about the average Joe? Honestly, In this situation Teclis has a lot more potential to be killing others without any answer more so than a lot of other heroes. All in all your point seems to be that against something like KO, then Katakros would be better, therefore he is just better than Teclis full stop. At the end of the day I don't really know if Teclis is pointed properly. Maybe he is, maybe he isn't. I just think it's a bit pointless to compare him to Katakros, simply because there are differences which allow one to perform better in a small segment of situations better than another.

May I ask what you did to playtest this? I'm always hesitant when anyone says something as loaded as "seriously" or "I can assure you" with regards to some assessment of balance. I think you're employing double standards in the comparison to Katakros. You reduced Teclis's capabilities to essentially "he's only about magic", whilst listing Katakros's capabilities specifically. If I were to flip this around I could say this: If you think about it, Katakros is "only about combat", with no shooting, mediocre movement and absolutely no magic. If you look at Teclis, he does so much more (Autocasts up to 4 spells, has two fantastic warscroll spells - Either a 5+ FNP to the whole army and 18-20 mortal wounds to the enemy army- , gets an auto unbind for free, can do as many unbinds as he wants, +1 to cast, dispell and unbind as well as a 4+ ignore spell whilst bouncing back mortal wounds. He also has fly, decent movement and most importantly can project direct damage potential much easier because he is ranged). It's a bit of an apples and oranges comparison. Would you compare a Bloodthirster to a Lord of Change? And Katakros at 500 points (and this is more of an open question to be discussed): At 0 wounds taken he doesn't give out 500 points worth of buffs / debuffs and deals out a bit more damage than Light of Eltharion when at that profile (who's at 220 points, and whilst good for his points, also has better save potential). At his lowest profile he gives minimal buffs and debuffs, but ain't fighting like a 500 point hero (have to thank Gotrek for making everyone seem weak as cheese for that 500ish point cost). The beauty of Katakros's cost is that he is not worth 500 points if you leave him as a buff piece, and he's not 500 points worth of a pure fighter (he's also pretty fragile at his lowest profile in comparison to someone like LoE or Gotrek). To get the most out of him you need to be doing both, which is a delicate balance at any given time, as you may need that -1 hit debuff, which is the first buff you lose and perhaps you took too many wounds even after healing. You may need to ensure you steal those command points because your opponent relies on them, or you need that 36" reach because you army is so spread out. There is a lot of delicate play there I feel which underpins a lot of his power and capabilities.

I pretty much feel the exact same as you @Sception. I'm not entirely sure that Katakros will get a points hike, but I also wouldn't be surprised if he did. I guess for Katakros, it will boil down to GW's confidence in putting him in at 500 points in the first place. I haven't ever heard a complaint saying that he's undercosted, so I hope they keep that in mind, and not increase him solely because he is used often. Mortek increase is a worry for me also, especially if it combines with an over nerf of Petrifex and / or lack or buff for other sub factions. Also my worry has nothing to do with the fact that I am painting 50 of these guys at the moment and totally would hate to have to finish these whilst cry-painting.... Crawlers I can imagine going up to 220, which hurts the double crawler builds the most, but also the single crawler builds. they're just so swingy that I would definitely think twice adding just one for 220. Overall I think this will be a decisive GHB for OBR, more so than any other faction. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle Petrifex, if at all. I have a suspicion that any changes to PE will be token at best. As much as everyone knows how bonkers a +1 save and rend is across the board, its not like it was done without intention and that THAT long ago. So I am wondering if it's going to be the Hag Narr treatment. Then again, PE just is neck and shoulders above the rest that I think they kinda have to address it.

I like to think of it like this to make sense: - The artefact is a physical object that you discovered or earned as your army was out and about doing army stuff whilst in the realm. Whilst FOUND in the realm, it can be taken anywhere and may have no particular properties which tie it to this one realm. - The spell on the other hand is tied to the realm because one needs to be able to draw on the realm magic to be able to cast it. How would you be able to cast Fireball in Ulgu when there is no Aqshy realm magic around. At least, that is how I think of it.

I understand where you are going with this, but smallest, cheapest, most numerous unit does not automatically mean it is chaff. Mortek are the prime example. 130 point 10 man "chaff"? I don't think so. Are they the closest TO chaff in a pure OBR army, yes. But they don't necessarily qualify as chaff solely because of that. Nor should they. It's not what the army is about. Also you need to consider intention of the unit. Skinks I would argue are intended to be chaff. They go in, block stuff, take the hit, die and then your saurus (a stronger infantry) come in and sweep up. That's not the same with Mortek, and that is by intentional design. What stronger infantry is there? Stalkers? I wouldn't argue that a single 6-man (or two 3 man) unit of stalkers as an infantry replacement once mortek die. Mortek ARE the replacement that would come after the chaff. They get the re-roll as a replacement for chaff (in my opinion). If you were talking Marauders though, I would be right on board. The distance that marauders can cover with their charges and such is basically like a movement equivalent of mortek guard. This was covered in a recent podcast by The Honest Wargamer, where the guest "Colonel Cabbage" basically said that from 18" (movement and charge), marauders basically have around 56% chance of getting into combat. At 17.5", that goes up to around 75% (because you only need to end up at 0.5" at the end of a charge). Nope, you're eyes did not deceive you... a 0.5" difference means the likelihood goes up by 20%!!! From 14.5" or less a marauder unit will always succeed (not counting terrain etc etc). I think someone else said that at 17.5" inches, marauders are more likely to succeed in getting into combat than Chaos Knights, a unit that can move a whole 4" more....and they ride freaking horses. Lets not forget the fact that they start with 2 buffs for just being in a 20 man (i.e. their minimum sized unit) and for some reason they get their banner / drums for every 5 of them. Five!!. They blow Chaos Warriors out the water. Want to know the worst of it.....That's just all from their warscroll. Lets not forget Chaos God Marks or dare I say it, darkoath warqueen buffs or whoever it is from Khorne who can also increase the charge by 3".

I'm by no means qualified to say whether the Petrifex is truly OP or not. I have commented before saying that it isn't and I do regret saying that, mostly because I really didn't take into account an important aspect when it comes to the gaming side of the hobby: Your average Joe gamer. So I have kinda backtracked on my initial "petrifex are kinda fine because x,y,z weakness" and "but a,b,c faction can do something similar" because of this. I'll try to explain it as best as I can. If anyone has every played League of Legends, then you know the champion Shaco (or if you play Smite then it's Loki), where this character basically dominates beginners because a new player's lack of wider understanding of the game other than "killing enemy good". Things like farming, placing wards for map control and generally getting a feel for the more subtle things that make you win the game (we've all had that game of LoL where we're up on kill points by a landslide but lose the objective game and ultimately lose the game). However, the champion can be easily countered and / or neutered by more experienced and high level players because of this wider understanding on what it takes to win. You would almost never see these champions in tournaments or even in higher level brackets of ranked play. If you Don't want to be dominated by a Shaco, then you play smarter. The reason I mention this is because I feel petrifex falls into this same pattern. It's tough on beginner and even medium skilled pilots because the skill floor is higher ( or is it low skill floor???? Basically I mean it's easier to do well from the get go) than most and the strengths of the army in this sub faction are not only cranked up to 11, but these strengths are one of the core mechanics that help win games: Killing and not getting killed. What does your average Joe want to do in AoS games? Kill and not get killed. Obviously it's way more nuanced than that and arguably what really wins game is deployment and movement, but that leads me to my next point and that Petrifex can be countered by the more subtle and background aspects of the game. Things like screening, movement etc etc that many experienced players rely on just as much as outright killing power. Again, like Shaco, if you don't want to be dominated by a Petrifex player, then you play smarter.... ....BUT (and i'm finally trying to get to one of my points after three paragraphs...sorry, not sorry) asking someone to essentially "git gud" in AoS is a lot different than saying the same in LoL. Outside of the whole "some just play for fun, but want a fair game" aspect, Petrifex doesn't simply asks players to play smarter in order to perhaps win, it forces it. It essentially takes away people's choice. If Jimmy and Sandra have been playing a few games and are both relatively new and had some close games where it could go either way, that's awesome. Once Jimmy get's a shiny new OBR army and takes Petrifex, then the dynamic completely changes and Sandra needs to step up her game in order to have that "could go either way" experience. In my opinion I think this really is something as to why people hate on Petrifex so much (amongst other things of course). I think the added fact that AoS is such a costly hobby adds an element of justified entitlement in ensuring that things are balanced and things like Petrifex are brought in line. To be honest, I think since OBR (perhaps even Cities of Sigmar and Orruk), I feel that GW have basically decided that each faction will have one or two key defining strengths that will annoy every other player and essentially have a mentality of "if every faction has something unique, annoying and "out of line" (don't want to say OP or Broken), then it's all good. I am very interested to see how things look next year (if there is no AoS 3.0 that is) and see if older factions (looking at you Nighthaunt) get new updated mechanics which fit with their initial theme but cranked up. A final note, and something related to my last paragraph, is that I feel GW have moved away from dice rolls dictate things (e.g. night haunt wave of terror) to either guaranteed abilities (Say StD Ravagers summoning or StD Gaunt Summoner summoning) or those of 90% certainty and / or upping the scale of abilities (Staunch Defender vs Petrifex ) or adding in never before seen things which kinda go against what we expect and know from the game's rules ( e.g. board wide mortal wounds and unbinds with Kroak). I really do hope that GW bring up the power level of these older tomes. That along with bringing in the problem stuff in line, we can finally get a better picture of where we stand.

Like you said, depends on who you are facing, but this combined with the "Command Abilities cost 2 CP instead of 1" spell could be good for those armies that bypass BS via Inspiring presence. It's one of those abilities where there's always going to be a benefit (2+ ignore battleshock), but that other half of the ability, when it goes off, is going to be sweet.

Hey all, How are you approaching the Tzeentch magic and -1 to hit in melee that they have? Seeing as a lot of our stuff needs relatively high rolls already to hit, it can really mess things up. My thoughts were when going against the big blue bird faction, that it would be better to focus on just swamping the objectives and just focus on the resurrection aspects and picking out targets if they step out of their -1 to hit bubble. What about ignaxs scales and lens of refraction for some artefact choices? LoR is a bit of a miss most of the time but with more and more magic on the table from other factions it could be a good shot?

Same here! Once the lockdown is over I'll post here again and we can see about getting some games together. That's a shame Once things are better feel free to reach out if you wouldn't mind me joining. Happy to hang out and play and / or paint.

@Asor @Naem @Redmanphill @Johann @Olsch Hey guys, Are any of you still looking / wanting others to play AoS with? I'm up for find more peeps to play with once the quarantine is lifted properly and things are back on track. Anybody up for meeting once things are over?

Hi Pho_King_D, Welcome to AoS! With regards to gravesites, you measure the gravesite radius from the centre of any token, model or whatever else you use as the gravesite marker, and not from the edge of the base. This is specifically to avoid people using large models etc as gravesites. So it really doesn't matter what you use, as you always measure from the centre.

No worries, I will put some things together and give it a whirl! and as an FYI, TTS in many ways is easy as there is an inbuilt ruler you can use to measure everything. So big blobs are easy as selecting, picking up and moving. other ways, like piling in are a nightmare. Take some practice is all!

Thanks for the tips! Back to the drawing board then! Any advice on running a small 1250 game with seraphon? Either changing this list or would a more saurus focused list be better?

Hey everyone, Just wanting to try out a small 1250 point game soon via Tabletop Simulator, and wanted to give the new Seraphon a whirl and wanted to get some feedback on this list, as I have no idea how the synergies are working in Seraphon. Allegiance: Starborne Constallation Dracothion’s Tail Leader: Slann Starmaster - General Saurus Astrolith Bearer Battleline: Skinks x 20 Skins x 20 Other Units: Salamander Hunting Pack x 12 Terradon Riders x 9 Last 100 points on Endless spells. Just something I put together but I have no idea how decent this list is. I feel it probably lacks some decent anvil unit, so perhaps swapping the Terradon Riders for Saurus would be a better idea. What do you guys think?

I believe @AidenNicol has a post regarding this from earlier in the thread: (Page 23 I think): @AidenNicol Is this how you are currently running your gravesites? Any new thoughts you have on placement?

So there are already videos covering the latest White Dwarf magazine release with the new Batallions....and they ain't good (In my opinion): https://youtu.be/6VKs5DqjaG8?t=143 (Battalions start at 2:22 in case this link doesn't automatically go there). Soooo thoughts? Personally I expected them to be Mortis Praetorians only, given it was labelled Vokmortian's tithe Legion and even the preview from the previous magazine showed Arch-Kavalos Zandtos. Still, I'm kinda disappointed.

Snip

Perfect! Looks like I have got all my steps sorted! For the wash would you recommend something like Agrax Earthshade, Nuln or Reikland Fleshshade? Something along those lines to get that off white. I feel Agrax has some nice earthy tones to it. I'm super stoked to try this out and see what it will look like! Thanks again for all your help!

1. You could be right. After looking at some images too, it does look quite light in tone. I think the Panzer Grey could work? (You can see it in action here - https://youtu.be/NAHaR9h8ZTc?t=140) 2. Not problem at all to mix paints to lighten it up a bit, or use something like a mournfang brown instead lightening up if needed. 3. Gotcha! So the brownish 1st drybrush can cover a lot more of the mini? 4&5. given my painting skills, sloppiness is a given! 😄 I'll do some tests on some spare minis and other things to get an idea and some much needed practice!

@Battlefury & @MitGas seriously, thanks to both of you. truly i'm very thankful for the both of you for taking the time to help. So here is how I am thinking of going after the advice from the both of you (There will be some questions here as well :D) Base colour with the German Grey. Would the Vallejo German Field Grey spray work as an alternative? Seems to be very close. I ask because if I do my mortek guard in a similar fashion to the nexus - it would be great to get them done in a big batch. If that is too greenish, perhaps I can find another grey basecoat like standard mechanicus grey? Verrrry light dusty drybrush with something like Citadel Rhinox Hide. 2nd more pronounced dry brush with Vallejo Green Grey or a neutral grey Add the pigment weathering. Varnish / seal the pigments in Battlefury, you mentioned adding a sepia wash (Something like Reikland Fleshshade perhaps?) to it if I wanted to bring it back to a dirtier tone. At what stage would the both of you think this should be added? Straight after basecoat? Or after one of the two drybrish stages? Once again, thanks a lot to the both of you for your help in this!

Yeah, I think a true black would make it really hard for me to weather properly and would be out of place. Thanks for the highlight tips. So with this you mean just generally not do the traditional last bright highlight step? And as others have said, just stick to a grey? I think weathering powders will be the best way to go. Slap on some dark sand colours will make it look great. I guess a matte varnish spray afterwards would be needed?