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Drink their tears, for they give you strength. You are the commander of an army that feeds on fear and grief, after all. What bothers me the most is fielding my models and being asked if I'm playing NH or LoG, and if I answer anything other than LoG I'm told I'm playing them wrong. The outcome no longer matters if they salted the table before we even play. I'm the type of player who will tell you, on your turn, not to forget a key ability. So I appreciate opponents who like to work with me when I play than against me. These players make the game fun, and I try my best to foster that feeling whenever I'm at the table.

Nighthaunt and LoG are very different playstyles. Nighthaunt - A tactical strike force. Customizable via battalions and hero selection to deal with specific objectives and enemy armies. Special Forces. Legion of Grief - A never-ending march. Dictating where the field of battle is by showing up and never going away. An occupying army. The Nighthaunt's strengths are that you can configure them to suit the need and opponent. They have a bag of tricks that you can rummage through. You can meet and adapt to a meta or opponent by taking stock of your impending situation and drawing up a list that will best handle the threat. They prefer smaller-sized, multiple units to be in several areas at once, popping up anywhere on the table as needed, and overwhelming a target or two at a time by charging several units at them all in a turn, increasing your chances at Wave of Terror. Like any special forces team, knowing your tools and tactics are what matters, and you will win if you can master them, but no one list will ever conquer all enemies. They don't tend to win a lot of tournaments not because they are a bad army, but because you generally can bring only one list, and therefore one configuration, against an assortment of armies with varying strengths. This army requires you to "Know Thy Enemy" and mean it. The Legion of Grief's strengths are that they are not paying a point tax to customize their army, so hero and unit choices are their sole customization, but they will field far more models and wounds than NH, and likely more than any opponent. They are an army that shows up, and shows up, and shows up (with a drop count to match) with nowhere else to go. They lumber forward, inevitably (and still faster than most), and you see them coming. They favor larger units where the only real concern on size is not making them so big that they can't fit into a gravesite's resurrection aura, but big enough that healing is never lost on them so they can stick around long enough to receive it. Gravesites allow them to not only dictate where the majority of the fighting will happen, but how fast or slow the fighting will be. Every unit is a tar pit, with teeth and rend, that just won't go away. They tend to be rated higher than NH in "competitiveness" because their lists don't lack the models to sit a few units aside to camp objectives while sending some damage dealers to whittle down the opponent. Tactics still count, but not like they do for NH. This army requires you to "Know Thyself" and mean it. To me, it's pretty clear why LoG is a favorite, and I won't lie and say LoG hasn't been my favorite way to play lately. But these White Dwarf battalions give me hope for an army style I actually prefer, with a little touch of LoG's durability. Sure, it's not army-wide, but Dolorous means your general now has Hexwraith-shaped gravesites to heal from, at a greater potency, and even more so if your general has Ruler of the Spirit Host. My biggest gripe with Nighthaunt will always be that the key tools in their kit that are supposed to define them, Wave of Terror and Deathless Spirits being prime examples, are too soft now. "Wholly within" should be FAQed out the army to match any of the newer books. Wave of Terror should be on an 8 or 9 before Deathriders' bonus, or depend on another mechanic entirely that we can actually dictate, like an Allegiance Command Ability along side Spectral Summons.

Eh, I'd debate on that. Nighthaunt is a complicated faction. I think it speaks more about NH that even though they've been around since 2.0 dropped they get mostly point adjustments, LoG (which really is just including them like most Death into a Legion configuration), and now these new battalions instead of complete reworks. Nighthaunt isn't meant to be a "Roll a dice, on a 3+ I auto-win" kind of army. We're not titans. It's clear with the latest armies that have come out and have seen updates that this sort of thing sells models, so yay for them I guess, but I'll hold that both NH and LoG can hold their own against any of them and still win. NH is a tactical army. Maybe even an advanced one. I regularly beat Cities, for example. There are a couple of subfactions that can deal 20+ wounds a turn, and we evaporate under that kind of pressure. But, with careful planning and careful play, I tend to win (bad dice days notwithstanding).

"Allied units are treated as part of your army, except that they are not included when working out your army’s allegiance, and can therefore be part of a different Grand Alliance or faction. In addition, an allied model cannot be the army’s general, and cannot use or benefit from your army’s allegiance abilities." Nah. And since these are Nighthaunt battalions, you can assume the Nighthaunt keyword is present and that likely means that only Nighthaunt generals could benefit from an ability a NH battalion grants, just in case someone thought there was a loophole.

In my local scene it is completely legit to Underworlds/whateverthestormcastversionofthisiscalled the half of your army that's going into reserve before setting a unit on the table at all. As long as it ends up following the 50%-or-less rule it's fine. Order doesn't matter. What's been debated around here, though, is if a battalion can be split when leveraging it's one-drop bonus. What's agreed to be legit (locally) You can set up Underworlds reservations first before putting a single unit on the table, so long as by the end of your total deployment it follows the 50/50 deployment rule. A battalion, as a bonus, allows you to deploy all units included in that battalion as a single deployment, the verbage being "at the same time" in the Core Rules. There is no rule against distance between units deployed in this way. So a Chainguard battalion, for example, can be a single drop, but can also appear with half the 'rasps on the other side of the table. A battalion's one-drop bonus can be used when placing the entire battalion in reserve. What's debated is (locally) Since a battalion is a single drop by virtue of being "at the same time", and has no rules about physical distance on the table, that a part of a battalion can be deployed in reserve at the same time the rest of it goes on the table, still counting as a single drop.

Yes, they are. Or, rather, they will be on Saturday upon their official release. You'll be able to look at these as though they were printed in your NH book.

I go into it a little here. Costs, variances, Oly's helpful spell and whatnot.

You're not wrong at all. Just trying to make the point cost a bit better. Really, you could double up on the two battalions and make the KoSoES from Scions your general and then the DG just hovers near him. But the idea is that if you drop Oly with the DG as general then even if she's only CPing back 1 unit at a time you now have 27 wounds at minimum with 2 Death saves on any wound that jumps to a Hexwraith. Oly with 27 wounds? Wow. Oly with 27 wounds that can regenerate 2 wounds per CP, at minimum, in addition to her other abilities? Amazing. Question is if she's worth it. While she is advancing on the enemy back line your opponent will likely target the Hexes knowing they are her lifeline (and thus deny the second Death save), but even so that's threat not on her in that moment. But yes, very expensive to do this.

Not at all. There's already a little debate over the way it's written that will likely require a FAQ to clear up. The term "any" is used in "Any number of warscroll battalions chosen in any combination from the following list", which might mean "zero" is included. If that's true, then for another 80 points as long as you have 1 Forgotten Scions and 1 Dolorous Guard, then yes, you have 1 warscroll battalion to drop. I think the reason you're not hearing a lot of sounds of joy over this is that a single drop is just that, and splitting units into the Underworlds by necessity would break up that nice bonus. Still, getting it down to 2 or 3 drops compared to the average 4 is really nice, too.

Let's refocus a bit... As far as objectives go, it's as simple as what's written. Core Rules, page 10 (in the condensed version), Objectives section, 4th paragraph, last sentence. HOWEVER The golden rule is that whatever is written on a battle plan or warscroll card will supercede the core rules. So battle plans like Places of Arcane Power, that have different rules for objective capture, replace the core rules. Always read the battle plan for yourself. I'll never endorse cheating or dirty tricks, but knowing lesser known rules, remembering the often overlooked ones, or understanding how they all interact is core to any tactical game.

I feel your pain. I was hoping the battalions would be valid in either army, myself.

Commented as well. Thanks for the fresh take!

I went down the theorypath of Olynder being the General for the Dolorous Guard, thinking the Olynderbomb-of-yore could stand an update. RotSH can return more models to a single unit, and for free, but she could do 1 to any number of units for a CP. What do you think? I love the Forgotten Scions. Makes KoSoES almost an autopick.

I've certainly learned a lot from you on the LoG page. Not that you're here, what's your take on the new battalions?

That, my friend, is a delicious kind of evil

Oh, absolutely not a great list! Just a quick put-together to see how the points look. For example, you could drop the Banshees and take another unit of Hexwraiths for the same cost and gain more wounds for your Oly and more objective-capture options, but less utility and splash damage on the table. Or switch the Chainguard out for the Condemned, drop the Cairn Wraith and KoS, add 10 Chainraps to one of the units. More damage for the 'rasps, but less healing and some artifact options left behind. /shrug Or, ditch the other battalion altogether and just fill the extra points with chaff units like as many Chainrasps and Dreadscythes and/or Bladegheists you can with a hero or two. Remember that you only lose an objective if an enemy can claim it, so if you're preventing your opponent from coming within range you can leave your objectives and still count them. Except for that one battleplan that requires the heroes within 3"... Dunno! The Dolorous Guard make the Hexwraiths into something useful and now our best General retinue, but the point cost means you have to make those points work. If you're just fencing off a Dreadblade with them I'd argue that's a waste. Your General needs to be an extremely useful one for that kind of cost. You're spending at minimum 400 points before the General is even selected.

Here is a very tentative, very speculative sample list at 1500 points, the usual points I play in my local meta. Consider this me spitballing and talking through an idea out loud. And how'd I personally use this list

Just gonna throw this out there to kind of steer the conversation... Everyone's favorite underdog Spirit Hosts: 3-12 unit size, 9-36 wounds per unit, 6 attacks each (18-72 total), 5+/4+/0/1 - MWs on nat 6 hit roll - 120-480 points Everyone's favorite unit to bully Hexwraiths: 5-20 unit size, 10-40 wounds per unit, 2/2 attacks each (10/10-40/40 total), 4+/3+/-1/1(4+/5+/0/1) - MWs on nat 6 hit roll for half those attacks AND MWs on a 5+ per model that passes over an enemy unit - 140-560 points ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Remember Olynderbomb? New Olynderbomb: Olynder (general) - give her Lifestealer or Reaping Scythe (220), 2 through 4 units of 5 Hexwraiths (140 each), DG battalion cost 120 = total 620-900. 620 points, or 900 if you're nasty and want to max it out, single drop Olynderbomb to devastate the enemy back line via From the Underworlds. Hexwraiths now swing for 3/3 (6 like a Spirit Host...just half the MW potential) attacks on a charge, but you don't charge with everything and never if a unit ends up outside 12" of Oly. That's not their role. They follow her, passing over enemy units and charging into them from behind in order to keep near the 3" they need to absorb her wounds. Her command ability will restore 1 model per unit within 12" per CP. Oly's unique spell, Grief-stricken, gives an enemy unit -1 to hit from any weapon source. But, it also gives any friendly unit that targets them +1 from melee weapons. Now your Hexwraiths now hit on 3+ and so do their mounts (mounts count as melee). Oly herself will hit on 2+. Her handmaidens on a 3+ (again, mount). If empowered by Reaping Scythe she's rerolling all misses and missed wounds. Not to mention starting with 1 more CP and 1 more artifact you put somewhere else. Yes, you lose other shenanigans making her your general, but you put a threat unit on the table that demands to be dealt with. You lose some durability on other units, but they claim objectives while Oly and her calvary put so much pressure on your opponent that they will NEED to deal with her, and likely with too many resources to take those objectives from you. Remember, play the objectives. Leave total annihilation tactics to FEC or whatever.

Not my images, but they are way more readable than the previous ones. Enjoy 😏

Cost. Dreads cost 20 less until max unit size. At max they are 40 less. That adds up. It's an endless spell. It's an extra CP if the rest of your list allows for it. Less cost is more wiggle room. I love my 'gheists, and they've done right by me, but I'm no longer thinking they are the optimal choice if you're willing to try to play tactically. They are most certainly the best choice if you can't buff them, though, and you already have Reapers.

You've got a couple of options. Gravesites, several of them, where you are going to be taking ranged damage. Since you can designate a unit per gravesite, and that can be the same unit, you stand to heal up to 4d3 models from that alone. If you tuck a Necromancer in with the unit, minding not to let him get pelted, you can throw in another d3. Minimum 5, maximum 15 models back per hero phase before considering GoS's Spectral Lure or any other source of healing. I suggest no more than 3 gravesites in your battle zone. Put that 4th somewhere that keep your opponent hesitant to move their deployment too far. Speed. We have a lot of units that can move 8", and a few that can move 12". Before I took my turn I made a few calculations; I measured my opponent's full move and full move+run to predict where they were going to be at their shooting phase, and then measured how long their ranged attack was. I knew I could move X" on my turn, let him move on his, and still be out of range the first turn but be close enough for a charge roll on my next after move. If this means running on your first turn in order to set that up, then consider it. But don't leave your heroes too far behind or risk not shrugging wounds. Despite any of the above, your most important move is to read the objectives of your particular scenario carefully. Play for points. We're sneaky, resurrecting, fast units, so your best bet is always going to be to amass your points. We have horde units that are great at camping, and fast units that are great at claiming. If you can take a point early and hold it longer, then you'll likely win despite taking heavy losses.

Since most armies in his meta have Bravery 7 or higher, I can see why he'd want to shelf the girls. It takes a CV 8 spell to lower a unit's bravery enough to matter for that. In my local meta I think they're still super solid for that -1 to hit. I'm supposing that he's figuring an equal points worth of Chainrasps would hit more and wound more than the Dreadscythes overall, while costing the same CP to get them swinging. He brought 20 and 15 Dreadscythes (35 wounds, 105 attacks, likely a fraction of that actually being used) = 520 points = 40 + 30 Chainrasps (70 wounds, 140 attacks, more likely to get a bunch actually attacking). Slower, less likely to damage (3+ vs 2+ with a GoS Wound buff), but way more of them and way more attacking once they got to wherever they were going. I hope they are both Nighthaunt and Log battalions, or at least one is. I'd die for a second artifact...

Stoked! Yes, regale us with your tales off ghosty ghastly murder

It all sounds fair to me. I'm glad you had a winning tournament, and I hope future events are a bit more fair. Thanks for the write up. I look forward to the more detailed reports later!

<---- "unless" and "6 or more" Legion of Grief - Aura of Grief: Subtract 1 from the Bravery characteristic of enemy units while they are within 6" of any friendly Legion of Grief units. Nighthaunt - Aura of Dread: Subtract 1 from the Bravery characteristic of enemy units while they are within 6" of any friendly NIGHTHAUNT units. A unit with a Bravery characteristic of 7, who comes within 6" of a Nighthaunt/LoG unit, now has a Bravery characteristic of 6. A unit with a Bravery characteristic of 6, who comes within 6" of a Nighthaunt/LoG unit, now has a Bravery characteristic of 5. A Bravery characteristic of 5 or lower, after modification, as well as a distance of 3", is required for Harrowing Shriek. Note that it is models within 3". Legion of Grief has a Command Trait and a Spell Lore to assist with this: Command Trait - Tragic Emanations: Subtract 2 from the Bravery Characteristic of the enemy units while they are within 12" of this general. Spell Lore - Shroud of Terror: Cating value of 8. If successfully cast, pick 1 enemy unit within 12" of the caster and visible. Subtract D3 from the Bravery characteristic of that unit until your next hero phase. There are other tricks, as well. Morghasts and Suffocating Gravetide, for instance. I am no expert, though, so if there is an obscure reading of the rules that somehow eek out more Bravery loss for our opponents (especially without spells) please let me know.