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It urks me to no end that other armies can do our grief/fear mechanic better than we can. In addition to everything already mentioned, the Sylvaneth have a few bravery shenanigans that they can combo that I'd like to have in our toolbox. A general that can force all opponent battleshock successes to be rerolled, a battalion that adds an additional D3 models to any opponent failed battleshock test, units that reduce bravery by 1 by being close, an artefact that can reduce it by another 1, and a spell that that does D3 damage to all enemies in a 10" radius if you roll higher than their bravery. Can you imagine that? NH or LoG already reducing bravery by 1, our general trait to reduce bravery by 2, an artefact that could reduce bravery by 1 more, our LoG spell to reduce bravery by D3 becoming baseline, the general forcing rerolls of successful battleshock, and a battalion that both prevents Inspiring Presence and adds an additional D3 to models that flee. That's -5 to -7 bravery, depending on a CV8 spell (would like to see that reduced a bit or get some casting bonuses), +D3 fleeing, no CA battleshock prevention, and a low ceiling to roll against for Banshee/Mortis Engine/Olynder shooting. Add in a way to chip into all the "take no battleshock" immunity rules (like forcing that to become a failure of 1 if otherwise no battleshock would be taken) and I think the lore about Olynder projecting so much grief that hardened warrior's hearts simply stopping becomes real on the table, too. And not that overpowered since it all already exists in the game and there's still a cast RNG/unbind involved. It's not my preferred way to play, but I can see the allure of it. You could make a 3-model unit with 10 bravery have to roll against a modified 5 or 3 bravery, reroll their success, and make at minimum 2 more run on a failure, just as long as you killed 1. And if they were immune to battleshock, 2 flee anyway. Broken, but worth the risk it'd take to set it up. And heaven bro help you if you brought a 40-model unit with 6 bravery...

I've got a general ask for my spooky boi buddies. I'm looking for someone who really knows Nagash and Nighthaunt lore. I've got some homebrew lore I'd like to "fact check" against established canon. If you're up for it please hit me up in a DM.

These are pretty unique, I have to say. I like them.

Oh, this bring so much joy to my cold, dead, ethereal heart! I love this, and I'm glad your first outing with the ghosty bois was so fun.

No go for me, unfortunately.

I love this

Could someone list out all the stories/novels that Nighthaunt appear in? As I understand it they appear in Soul Wars, Sacrosanct, and Lady of Sorrows. I'm sure I'm missing a few.

Oh man, a legit fear mechanic? What would that look like? We'd need to be able to make Bravery 10 units susceptible while not making anything less so absolutely broken that losing a single model is an insta-wipe. Even if it came through spells, I'd hate to break out a super-reliable -5 Bravery cast that puts any non-Death or demon army in the negatives. Worse, I'd hate to get a super UNreliable spell. Maybe stackable -1 auras? So the more units we put in play against a single opponent unit the more we reduce their Bravery? Still only comes into -1 to -3 territory on its own. How about everything stays the same, but the aura gets stronger over turns? Aura of Dread now reduces Bravery by the current turn number, so the longer the game goes on the worse it is to deal with us. Maybe it even grows by a couple inches each turn, too. So it starts at 6" and ends at 14". These still wreck low-bravery enemies, probably out of proportion. Maybe making failing Battleshock a Command Ability? Like for a CP we can force a failure of an enemy's battleshock test. For example, the enemy just lost 5 models in a 10-man unit. We spend a CP and now it's an auto-failure for them (the CA would overwrite Inspiring Presence or other Battleshock-preventing or passing abilities). Since it's a failure their models lost now becomes the number of models that run. So another 5 run and the unit is lost. Against a 3-man unit of elites you can take one out, spend a CP and force another out. Or if you got 2 the CP completes the wipe. This would make it a tactical choice, but not help any of our other abilities that depend on a Bravery value to do things.

Well, you're right. You kind of touch on what I'm getting at, but I'm suggesting expanding the tactic. Run the DG with no regard to whoever your general is. Pair them with an equally fast hero, or one with the Pendant of Fell Wind so it can keep up, and then send them off into yonder fields to grab objectives and slam into enemy heroes in the backfield. A Spirit Torment, for example, with the Pendant can move 9" and then run for more. You don't want heroes fighting anyway, so run them into aura range of where the Hexies are going to end up after their charge so they can just stand there and give the Hexies re-rolling 1s when they get there. You don't want them defending anything, that's true. You want them hunting. They're hunters. They can pick up an objective and then leave it to go lay a trap somewhere else, even if all that is ends up being tieing up an advancing enemy line outside the 6" objective bubble they claimed earlier with their bodies for a turn or two. The secondary ability of Knights of Regret, the wound-sharing with your general, is very tasty and who doesn't love a 20+ wound hero, but it's just one of the two things they can do. If things are going south for your general you can always try to bring them back, doing retreat and run moves to get them near your general to start absorbing wounds again. Even better if your general has RotSH and Hexies start reappearing.

*looks at his Nighthaunt Court of the Craven King Battleforce box from last Christmas containing at the time some of the arguably worst models in Nighthaunt right along with some of the best* *looks at the December 2019 White Dwarf that gave Nighthaunt the Emerald Host, Dolorous Guard, and Forgotten Scions battalions* *looks at the Forbidden Power book that gave us Legion of Grief 6 months prior, in the summer of 2019*

This is the reason I haven't clipped up the 32 I have lying around. Just waiting. Hoping...

Dolorous Guard Hexwraiths perform better than they look on paper. I've been running 2x5, but making some room for 2x10 is in my very near future. Chainrasps are a staple of most Nighthaunt lists, even more so than Reapers or Bladegheists. Unless performing a very specific function, you can't really going wrong bringing 30-40 of these guys. No better way to get wounds on the table for the cost, and if you pair them with any +hit or +attacks buff and they start swinging hard. Honestly, Kurdoss is such a technical choice. Great to distract with, but not as strong of a damage output as Olynder unless you can get him up on the enemy general. And even then it's iffy, if you roll a couple 6's then yes provided the damage isn't saved against. Olynder beats that out by doing more mortal wound damage that will stick. But his CP stealing is probably the most appetizing, but also the least reliable part of his kit. A 5+ only on the CP your opponent gets at the top of the turn? I was lucky enough once to steal 3 in a game with him, but I have had far more games where he's stolen 0. I swear, if my Hexwraith's scythes break just one more time, I'm ripping them all off the horses and glueing Glavewraiths on in their place. Are you sure? Don't discount mortal wounds. Even a single mortal wound is a stronger damage advantage than 2-4 standard wounds when given an enemy save and that save value (especially if there's a save-after-save). A pack of 5 Hexwraiths in DG will get 11 chances at a mortal at rest, and 16 if they charged, getting about 2-4 mortals each time. Everything else is cake. Yeah, less mortal potential than a Spirit Host per model, but if you add a Knight of Shrouds on Ethereal Steed for a +1 attacks CA or a Spirit Torment's re-roll 1's, or spending a CP on All-Out Attack, whoo boy. And move 12 inches? I'm telling you, don't let the paper math fool you. Give them a chance and run them a few times.

Wow, this thread exploded. That's good. Discussion is good. I don't have a ton I can bring to this thread, but I can offer something. A couple of things. First, I'm a guy who has gone all in on a faction that ended up not to be a meta-strong army. I did it for the love of the models and aesthetic before I learned about how they stood as an army against others. I figured out how to play my army before my friends really did and that gave me a sense of strength, as well. It all came together in this sublime endorphin boost; beautiful models, a fun game system, and competitive chances each game. At least at first. I'm exclusively a Nighthaunt/Legion of Grief player with over 8k points in nearly 300 models. All but 3 painted. It's fair to say I've invested time, money, and a lot of emotion into this game and, specifically, this faction. So when it started becoming apparent that NH were not played much, regarded highly, or even generally respected, my reaction was to ask why. Why was my faction maligned? Why can't I make them perform better? Why was everyone's solution to buy a new faction and leave this one behind? Why did no one seem to care? When my friends caught up on the rules and really learned their armies, I started getting stomped. Simple mistakes became game-losing. Hell, a bad deployment became game-losing. And my reaction to this was to study, study from tournament data, from faction reviews, from interviews, from asking players and winners, and from cornering a couple rules writers online. I ended up writing my guide which really helped my chances at winning, but it was a considerable effort. Do we expect everyone to put in this kind of effort? Should they have to? Yes, but only if they aren't meta? I can speak from personal experience how hard it is to still love the game and the people who have a hand in shaping it when I have seen nothing or very little in the way of addressing playability. It's disheartening to see evidence that money dictates their actions. Even though NH still sells a lot of models it's to the hobbyists instead of the players, and that seems to actually reinforce the idea GW won't address things until they see money in it. Second, who here has had the fortune to interact with GW? I have. They have a very uniform way of addressing the questions I've asked. "Play what you like" is by far the most repeated phrase, followed closely by "do you best and have fun." They have been dealing with this for a while, and I know they hear what everyone has to say, but I also think they can only do so much. I believe they bring up our concerns in their meetings, but I'd not be surprised if a governing board makes the final choice.

Shooting is only a problem for NH when you can't shut the ranged units down. It happens, and depending on your play preference that might happen a lot. Here's a few things to remember that can help against shooty armies: If you engage a ranged unit in combat, they can now only shoot at enemy units within 3". Zone in and charge, or otherwise get close to those ranged units to force them to deal with what's in front of them instead of what's 12"-24" inches out. All you need to do to claim an objective is have at least 1 model more than your opponent does at the end of your turn within range. Once you claim an objective you don't need to sit on it. If that objective is out in the open and ripe for being shot at, vacate the area in your next movement phase. You only lose the objective if your opponent comes to claim it after you leave. (Unless playing Better Part of Valor or Places of Power which require a Battleline or Leader within 3" at all times to retain claims, respectively) This means you can use Spectral Summons to put models on an objective to claim it once your turn ends. This also means you can use Spectral Summons to take models off of an objective and still claim it, so long as you claimed it at the end of your last turn. The Endless Spell Prismatic Palisade blocks line-of-sight. All Endless Spells have footprints. Most will make a ranged unit want to move. If you can't straight-up block sight with the Palisade, you can drop down a Purple Sun or some other spell that will make the enemy want to move around or away from it in order to save models, but doing so often reduces a lot of "stand and shoot" type buffs they get. Ask for weapon ranges and plan your movement accordingly.

I would love our lore to influence our abilities more. In this case, army-wide Frightful Touch makes sense, and leaving it on a 6 and stopping the attack sequence would be a fair tradeoff for the entire army being able to do it. Suddenly the NH meta becomes numbers of attacks, so our horde units would have more relevance and heroes like KoSoES become much more important. But I don't see Spirit Hosts being reduced much if at all. All you have to do is pair a unit of these at 6 or higher with a re-roll 1's mechanic, like a Spirit Torment or a All-Out Attack CA, and they will do surprising unmitigated damage. In fact, I just participated in a friend's startup YouTube channel where we played a quick test game of 1k, and I brought all mortal wound generators. I erased his offensive line and ended up winning the game. It wasn't a meta match up, but it does show how some interactions with Nighthaunt are continuously overlooked, but very strong nonetheless. Once it's ready I'll link it here.

I don't disagree with you, per se, but I want to point out that this is true for all of our existing healing abilities except for RotSH, Nimbus, and No Rest for the Wicked. We already suck at bringing back Hexwraiths and Spirit Hosts without major commitment. Reanimation Protocol is too powerful as it is, but up the die roll to a 6 and it might not be. 4+ save, 6+ shrug, 6+ return? You're right when pairing this against other midline armies, this would be unfun overkill (maybe not at the 6+?). But against a strong shooting army I'm not so sure. It may be one unit firing at you, but that one unit has 2 to 3 attacks often at 2+/2+ coming at you. And usually it's two units of that. 40+ attacks, x2, where 70% of the damage gets through.

It doesn't really matter which way you cut the data, or if you add in more or data or not, when what matters most is how it impacts you when you're at the table yourself. Everyone wants to play what they love. For some people that's the new hotness. For the rest of us it's the army that got us into the game or the one you stumbled on that really stuck with you. We honestly only really care when we put that army on the table and see it erased 4 out of 5 times you play it. This is what needs to be fixed. Argue about balance all you want, what we really want is to be able to have fun with the army we love. GW can accomplish this and still sell models, but I'm willing to bet that they won't give that an honest effort until it impacts their bottom line. They'll release new armies until we either don't care anymore or they reach whatever end of the line they have dreamed up, at which point they'll go back and cash in on the nostalgia wagon.

FEC and NH are pretty similar if you want to go for swarming tactics. No giant flesh-and-teethy wrecking ball you can single-handedly eat the board with, though. I'd think of it in terms like NH is a middle ground between horde and elite units, who have to rely on their heroes to shine and shouldn't stick around in a fight unless you're winning it.

Unless you are one of these armies, what you said will be a true statement. Metawatch Warhammer Age of Sigmar – 1: List-building with Dan Street But, yeah, in most cases as soon as we don't tie up a ranged unit if they can target a hero, that hero is gone.

That we do. We have to be super aggressive and fight on our terms, which usually just means right away and with lots of wounds/mortal wounds before they can counter. I think, in terms of balance, we're just short of coming up net level. I say this because our winrate during the last tournament season was around 45%, which isn't bad but against armies that average closer to 50% we clearly come up short. Our legendary battalions don't figure into this, so we don't know if, say, Dolorous Guard would have changed this. I hope that we don't get minor shifts or buffs in the mythical yet unconfirmed new tome. I want a total rewrite at this point. Too many of our abilities don't fit with what we're supposed to do as an army --which is to show up suddenly, swarm the board with lightning fast attacks, and disappearing before the enemy can gather their wits and strike back-- so we end up trying to strike a balance between going fast, Wave of Terror, and horde attrition tactics which don't work well together. For current games, though, my friends loved the idea of giving my heroes gaining the Necron's Reanimation Protocol as an aura with the same size as their Deathless Minions save. We'll get around to playing that way soon, but everyone agreed (like, instantly) that it makes sense thematically and would give Nighthaunt a valid chance against current armies.

I've never tried it. I should. The only real reason I haven't is the 50 points being spent on a CP and it being awkward trying to find something else to cut or keep. I'll give it a try, though.

I always love hearing this. This is the reason we put units into Underworlds. Even if WE have no idea what we're going to do with them, our opponent is always going to be worried about what's there.

Nah, not if we still had access to Ruler of the Spirit Host. Or the Black Coach, or Olynder's command ability. Deathly Invocation is prevalent in LoN armies with tons of multiple-unit model return sources. You have gravesites. You can overlap these and supplement them with spells and endless spells. Why couldn't Nighthaunt get this fancy kind of in-the-thick-of-battle model return (which really fits our aesthetic, I think) in addition to what we already have? I think I might ask my group if I could try it out.

I would just amend that this is a hero aura ability. Basically Deathless Minions becomes Eternally Bound or some other flavorful name, and gives out either the 6+ save-after-save and this reanimation ability, or just the reanimation. That way, if our heroes get sniped or we move out of formation we lose our ability to reform from bodies on the field, it has a limited range, and only the 6+ save applies to magic damage. Given our weak model return compared to the damage our opponents can dish out, I think it might actually be more balanced than it looks on paper.

So... Requires at least 1 model remaining in a unit after losing models (so no heroes) After taking damage in either the shooting phase or combat phase do the following: Roll a D6 per Wound killed in the unit On a 5+ gain a point Return a number of models whose Wounds characteristic is equal or less than the number of points you gained These returned models do not count toward Battleshock For example; if a unit of 3 Spirit Hosts loses 2 during the enemy's shooting phase, you then roll 6D6. If you get a 5+ three times, you can bring back one Spirit Host. If you somehow get all six dice on a 5+, you get both back. Or: Your 20-man unit of Bladeghests gets flamed for 15 deaths in the combat phase, leaving 5 behind. Roll 15D6. For each 5+ bring one back. Woah. I like this. A lot. Seems very powerful, but I wonder if it's really overpowered or not.