dekay

You are right, but luckily, they can be painted on 'meh ok' level quite easily. Actually, as long as cloaks and heads are good, the rest kind of blends together. So dark metal/light metal/wash on all the metallic parts, contrast on cloaks (they're very contrast-friendly), a bit of work with faces and hair and honestly, entirety of their remaining clothing can be, say, black contrast on grey base and they look fine.\ True, they are not skeletons or goblins, but they are not all that terrifying to paint.

Freeguild guard with shields for some durability if you want a dedicated retinue unit, any of your small units of shooters that you need to keep your general close to anyway, just to cut the costs. But if you want them tough, use dwarves instead. Apart from that, dreadspears and bleakswords are a perfect retinue for a sorceress general if you ever plan to branch out to other subfactions (and you should at some point ; ))

There's a hope that gunhaulers will become useful, though. Our battalion is good already, it'd make it even better. In general, fun thing about CoS - we get to be excited about new editions of battletomes other than our own ; )

Arright, new Kharadron tome has been announced. Make your bets on what happens to khemist and arkanauts ; )

Plague monks have been changed, so maybe there's a chance for poor minotaurs, too. But I'd argue that drakespawn are not one of those units. If they costed the same as wild riders (that do have some use) it'd basically be a choice if we want hitting power or armour in our melee cavalry. I think both would be used.

Cauldron of blood model as a base would be ideal. Add spare horses/drakespawn from the chariot kit on the front, put a wizard on it, you're set.

The choice is limited, but at least most of them are actually good. They are often taken instead of generic realm or order artifacts (with exception of Ignax Scales and Thermalrider Cloak) and that's more than some other factions can claim. My complaint about artifacts comes from the fixed realms rule, though. This really is limiting in many ways and I don't think that such limitation was necessary.

Good news is, the unit itself isn't terrible. As in, it's design doesn't seem to be inherently flawed. They are just too expensive what what they do. Less so with the errata, but still. If they were 130 points they could be considered good. So, worst case, you'll need to wait for next price reduction (which will come, I think, if they continue to underperform). For now, yeah, I think Tempest's Eye is the best choice for them for reasons you mentioned. I would say that at 150 points they are not terrible. Stack buffs on them and hope for 1st turn charge, enjoy the fact that both dreadlords skill and aura of glory are area effects so you can use it on multiple units. And you need to use the spare parts from your milion scourge runners anyway, so go for it

That is probably true! We've figured out some powerful combinations early, but given with how many variables we're working, it's possible that more will come in time. Armies like flesheaters or daughters of Khaine, with their extremely limited unit rosters, were able to figure out the most broken combos in the matter of weeks. We might need more time to find all of them.

Here you go. Test it out, tell us how it went. Keep your general and adjutant close to ironbreakers, use the bridge to get to the enemy, drop general's command on both shooters, keep them in hurricanum range. Drop ignite weapons on the shooting unit. Use ironbreakers and guard to shield the shooters for a moment. I'm not sure why am I writing this, as we all know you won't try this, given the fact that you'd lose your reason to complain.

Sorry if I didn't make my point clear enough. It's not about playing the game wrong, it's about people struggling to win in competitive context because they treat CoS as a set of separate (and bad) army lists of various races, instead of one army authours wanted it to be. Nothing against theming your force, really. On the contrary, CoS offers great p[ossibilities here. It's only about those who complain they can't win, specifically, while not using the competitive options. Then we'll go back to this conversation in a year and we'll all say you were right. But for now, some of us actually enjoy CoS.

I honestly can't wait for someone to test out the hypotethical low drop TE list. If we base it on pistoliers and outriders, 3-4 drops is doable while still having some worth as a fighting force. I don't have nearly enough horses for now to try it without heavy proxying, but the idea is potentially effective.

Nice to see a discussion here. Of course, I'll need to add things such as 'disposessed lost a way to negate magic, now they have only one' to my initial examples ; ). Because, from where I'm standing, they gained a lot of those. They gained +1 to unbind luminark, auto unbind incantor, 4+ ignore spells hallowheart spell... they didn't have those methods before and now they do! And, on the same subject, repeated notion that there is no inter faction synergy... Well ok, command abilities on warscrolls don't work between subfactions. That I agree on. But I also see my griffon general using 'run and shoot' on my darkshards. My sorceress giving +1 to wound aura to my pistoliers. Hurricanum giving +1 to hit to all of the above, and said pistoliers getting re-roll charge aura from, say, a sorceress on a dragon. There are a lot of inter faction synergies, they are just mostly on city artifacts, spells and abilities. Hell, I have a gunhauler that's able to retreat and shoot thanks to being bundled with freeguild units and it's not even from CoS book! Also. If we take one of the more used combos - a sorceress kills a bleaksword, gets +2 to cast. Casts soulscream bridge (at greater range than any other army usually can, given that realm rules often don't show up on tournaments at all!). Bridge transports a hurricanum, runelord and irondrake unit. Irondrakes get double shots with both rend and hit bonus. There are 3 factions involved in this thing. 4 if there's azyros in the mix to optimise the shooting even further. Plus a generic Cities allegiance ability on top of that. How's that not an inter faction synergy? As for 'it's the same as playing mixed order and/or firestorm cities'... I don't thing that mixed order and firestorm allegiances had those huge lists of universal support spells, artifacts and command traits. It's almost like they weren't a battletome allegiance armies, like CoS are. One more thing that kind of fascinates me is 'we didn't get endless spells'. Yeah, we kinda didn't. We also got every single generic endless spell buffed. To a level few faction specific spell can accomplish, really. And if that's not enough, we get stormcast spells as well without resorting to allies. Yeah, we got no new spell models. Which is a shame from a collector's perspective and confirms that CoS is basically a 'tie loose ends' tome, but from a practical standpoint? We have more strong endless spells than any other faction in game. Now, let's talk about statistics. Yes, CoS are way below average. Like, Kharadron level. But, as @Kramer said, they are pretty unique in that respect that despite this, they're still placing high in tournaments. Show me a large tournament won by, say, KO. Which kind of leads me to believe that 'many people are playing it wrong' theory may have some merit. No one says that phoenix guard heavy hallowheart is weak. Really. I've done some research after reading responses in this trend, and it really places generally in upper half of tournament rankings. I mean, OBR would have worse tournament record too if for some reason there was a large group of people drastically opposed to playing Petrifex due to thematic reasons. And claimed that including any Crawlers ruins their army fluff. DoK would be much worse, statistically, if parts of player base refused to use anything but Melusai and Avatars of Khaine. Hell, Idoneth place above average despite most of their book being terrible, they have like three good units everyone uses. Cities are unique in that respect. It's a book that brought together people used to vastly different playstyles, not all of whom take to the change kindly. Yeah, dwarves and high elves players, along with many others, wanted their 'real' books. And honestly, this is not it. They have a right to be disappointed but in my opinion not because their book is bad, but because their book still doesn't exist at all and who knows if it ever will. Instead, they got a book that lets them use their units together with variety of new ones, designed to work as one faction.

And if you don't mind their worse to-hit, they're more mobile than any other of the mentioned. And they don't generate extra drops due to the battalion. Outriders are cool. But also, do you know what those calculations don't have? Darkshards! 40 darkshards and a hurricanum with wizard cost 680. Vs. 3+ : 14,81 Vs 6+ : 37,04 And to match their points with others I can boost that to 17,28 and 43,21 with Azyors. And, contrary to handgunners, crossbowmen or sisters, they can do that while running. And in TE they don't even need a sorceress for that. That gives them effective range much greater than any of the others apart from arkanaut skyhooks (but then the pistols are not in use). They fail againsh high, re-rollable saves hard, though, but remember about those guys ; ) Especially that that when it comes to a 'alpha strike shooters' niche, where handgunners, crossbowmen and sisters can't realy compete.

Executioners have one thing going for them: as a horde, they are cheap. Apart from that, except for some really exotic matchups, black guard are better. With phoenix guard/black guard its obvious - you either prefer resilience or speed. Both have their use (with phoenix guard being more forgiving to the player. Their toughness just works, while black guards' threat range needs to be conciously applied where it matters) executioners though... they are black guard for situations where you can't afford black guard. Both are used the same - best paired with dragon sorceress, running forward at full speed. It's just the mater of how many points you're willing to invest. Oh, and it's worth mentioning other options competing for the same niche: If you want them for mortal wound output, greatswords or hammerers do the same thing better, sacrificing mobility for that. There are also wildwood rangers, but with those, honestly, you're better off with executioners

It's not that I don't see bridge's utility here, I'm just unsure if it's really an 80 point utility. But, yeah, maybe without scourgerunners or any other very mobile unit it's a good idea...

Three answers to this: 1. Meta depending. If you don't face sv 3+ or better armies primarily, darkshards do the same job cheaper. If you fight ethereal opponents such as nighthaunt , they are straight up better as arkanaut rend goes to waste. Against, say, petrifex, their bolts kinda bounce off armour sadly. 2. Eh.. kinda? You can make a very good TE melee list, too, skipping entire arkanaut/darkshard/irondrake debate altogether. 3. If you don't have arkanaut models already, don't buy them yet. Kharadrons will be getting new battletome inf few months and, given how old the current one is, a lot might change. Everyone expects the option to max out on skyhooks to disappear, for example. And it's the main appeal of arkanauts in TE.

Alright, so. I'm not a fan of 'rebuild your list from scratch' kind of advice so feel free to ignore whatever I have to offer. 1. I don't think you have any use for the bridge. Scourgerunners are mobile as hell, darkshards with command ability have like 33 inches of threat range, black guard are perfectly capable of 1st turn charge as well. Bridge is expensive. No reason to have it if you don't have any 'if static' units. 2. Dragon. I like dragons. However, Im not sure if this dreadlord is the best pick here, honestly. Next to nothing to use command ability on (alright, there's a hydra.) and probably not the best carrier of the 'no battleshock' aura. Plus, I think that in most circumstances griffon does the same job better (unless you are, say, living city and need a ranged attack on him). However, as I understand that 'no dragon' is an extremely disappointing advice when you wanter a dragon, may I interest you in a sorceress instead? Yeah, she loses half of armour save compared to the dreadlord but! Inspire Hatred does terrible things when put on black guard, and foot version doesn't get it. She's probably a better carrier of aura of glory than hurricanum is, given that she *wants* to be near the frontline, and simultanoiusly that makes black guard +1 to hit bonus from a friendly character much easier to get. That way hurricanum and foot sorceress can comfortably babysit your shooters. 3. Darkshards, which I am one of the most devoted proponents of, are a 'go big or go home' unit. Sorceress/ hawk eyed/ hurricanum/azyros make them into n incredible threat to anything with 4+ or worse save. Take 40. They need stacked buffs to work properly, and it's best to stack them on largest amount of models possible. You've just saved some points on a bridge. You can almost afford it already. If you're open to throwing out the hydra - all the better. 4. As an alternative to soulscream bridge, as far as endless spells go, emerald lifeswarm would be kinda cool here. Both black guard and dragon (especially a sorceress who can cast it herself) would like it very much. If the hydra is out and you have points to spare, consider buying a command point. You need your command abilities. 5. Adjutant azyros wil rarely be within range of the sorceress general. I'm not sure how to resolve this, but hurricanum general with sorceress adjutant might be better. You're losing out on retinue, sadly, and putting two auras on a single model, so don't quote me on this one. Or get a battlemage in there, wildform would help black guard in their sprint, and he'd be a good adjutant to the sorceress general. ; ) Yeah, from those we have only hurricanum, luminark, battlemages from certain realms, azyros and ordinator. I don't think I'm forgetting anyone here. Not a great choice, but luckily they offer some solid benefits. Plus, there's a lot of city specific traits, spells and artifacts that don't discriminate, too. The council demands to see it ; )

Oh, I meant griffon general, didn't clarify. Sorry. I'd still see it as a segment, though, even if we're talking GoG and 2x3 demis, it still leaves a lot for the rest of army. Some detachments are kinda expensive. 30 phoenix guard and frostheart annointed is 740 points. Sorceress, 40 darkshards and 10 battery/retinue bleakswords is 580. 4 helstorms, cogsmith and ordinator is 720. The thing is, you can easily fit 2-3 of such detachments into your force, and still have a place for, say, hurricanum, or a battlemage and a unit of shadow warriors, or some other support elements.

That is, certainly, a part of the problem. Overlapping a bit with the fact that many of the older generation of players harbour a strong aversion towards the stormcast that, too, should be considered a part of our roster. But among the players who simply haven't put together a list built for the CoS battletome, there do seem to be some who outright refuse to. The first category inevitably will start working out competitive lists soon. I wonder about the second. That is true. I think CoS armies have to be built in segments that support one another, together with some elements that do support other factions. Every Collegiate unit is welcome in basically any army because they all offer something universal. Hurricanum might be our best unit in general. But apart from those, yeah, it's a few semi self sufficient detachment (say, demigryphs with general, sisters with prince, black guard with sorceress)

There's a thing that pops up in many CoS tactical discussions and I wonder if you've noticed it and what's your opinion about it. Especially in the discussions of 'I can't win with CoS, what am I doing wrong' kind. It looks like this: someone either asks for advice or posts a battle report in wich CoS lose. You look at the army list and it is, say mostly darkling covens infantry lead by a dreadlord on dragon. Maybe even with some drakespawn. The army gets demolished. And the player asks 'I keep losing with my dark elf themed list, what can I improve in my tactics?" Or the other one: "this is my list, but i keep struggling with mobility, how can I counter it". The list is 100% disposessed. The player can be finally persuaded to consider gyrocopters at least, they're dwarves too... Everything else is out of question. "I need a substitute for an ambush unit, I can't use shadow warriors as I'm playing freeguild"... There's a lot of those. If we look at those winrate statistics floating around, CoS is below average despite seeming like a solid army... and I can't help but wonder if it's because many people claiming to play CoS simply.. well.. aren't. Disposessed, darklings or freeguild were barely playable factions in their GHB days and now they simply... aren't. Those factions are basically gone. There's one faction now, it's called Cities of Sigmar, and it has a huge unit roster. The most obvious synergies are inside the old mini-factions, yes, but they are not the only ones. Those irondrakes buffed by the runelord are good, but teleported with a bridge cast by a sorceress who just sacrificed a bleaksword to get +2 to cast, they are *better*. Those sisters of the watch buffed by the prince are good, but with a hurricanum behind them, they are *better*. The living city ambush skill used to teleport a wanderer unit, like in the old days, is good, but if you teleport a dragon it is, probably, *better*. If you look at this like this, the question "I refuse to use 80% of my options, why do I keep losing" answers itself. What I'm asking for is has anyone else noticed that some of us here have a problem of embracing the fact that we're a combined faction now? Did you have this problem at the beginning? Do you have it now?

I salute your insanity. Will you be posting progress from putting it all together?

I think they might be ok-ish in some cities. TE gives the the most, I think, because speed boost gives them potential for 1st turn charge, 2+ save in 1st turn makes them genuinely hard and they're a perfect target for aura of glory. But Hallowheart with ignite weapons and warding brand might help them as well, and Hamerhal is not terrible as well - they carry a banner so it's one potential CP more and wings of fire gives them extra mobility, while both blood of the twelve and agressive general support them well enough. Then, there are Living City and Anvilgard that maybe don't offer them all that much, offensive wise, but are the most likely to include the dreadlord already so he doesn't count as an extra investment ; ) Still, I'd prefer for them to drop to Wild Rider cost, as they seem more or less like equivalent units, where you either take speed and strength or extra armour.

And Wild Riders gained ability to be battleline. Not really a noticable change, given that CoS armies don't really have a problem with not enough battleline units in any given list, but useful if someone wanted to go extremely cavalry heavy. As for Drakespawn... I'm cautiously optimistic. They are still expensive, probably too expensive, and don't hit very hard, but with lowered cost they may have some utility as mobile tanks. Well, thay're better than they were and that's something.

Not necessarily. From what I see, CoS are pretty unique in that respect if we consider a few factors: 1. Many CoS players had their armies already, from WFB times, and could basically immediately switch to the new faction. So there was never a state when only hardcore tournament players were playing it. 2. CoS may, realistically speaking, have fewer new players than other factions. Models are old and mostly direct only, so more expensive than buying a typical box from an independent retailer, so it may forever have lower percentage of players just starting to learn how to play it than any other faction. 3. Most important one: For now, from what I see, many CoS players aren't playing CoS at all. They are playing Wood Elves. Dwarfs. Empire. Whatever. Not CoS, with CoS optimised synergies and compositions, they are trying to make thair old army work and failing, because that army doesn't exist anymore. I'd assume that as soon as they either give up or learn to use the combined arms style the book is built for, winrate for CoS might jump up a bit.