Kasper

That sounds so crazy to me. A lot of armies are super easy to pilot and they pretty much play themselves or are super straight forward once you have slammed them down on the table. I think people get a bit frustrated playing against this kind of list because it is very unique - Typically when you play AoS you get to play your army the way you want to - It might not be good enough and your opponents army might be superior in combat/counters yours, but this list basically tells your opponent "no" or asks a question a bunch of times, which isnt how AoS is typically played. It also got a ton of tools for almost any situation - I havent really had good usage out of Wind of Chaos until now, but good grief is it insane when you are hitting a horde unit and not 5-10 model units. Im surprised there is nearly no shooting in your local meta.. We have quite a few that play Stormcast and sometimes opt for a shooty list, Seraphon players with Thunder Lizard (Bastiladons in that are so insane vs Tzeentch), some KO and also some LRL with Sentinels. I think this list is significantly better in a more combat/magic focused meta since you dont have to worry as much about keeping your stuff way back. In my matchup against Seraphon I almost couldnt get my heroes within range of the objectives in fear of 2 Bastiladons just ripping apart Kairos or removing 2 squishy heroes per turn. Combining additional movement with Devolve will certainly make it stronger, but I do think sometimes it is worth implementing tricks that dont necessarily always grant you a huge bonus, but instead provides a threat that your opponent needs to worry about. I used to always include teleport mechanics in my lists - Not because they always did a whole lot of work for me, but it messed with my opponent's head since he constantly had to think about zoning out the possiblity of me deepstriking something. Not every army got a ton of cheap chaff, so by simply having a teleport mechanic I suddenly "wasted" alot of his forces that would otherwise be pushing against my army. I think this is another case of a trick where your opponent will go "Damn, if I roll a 10+ on the move, my unit is done for.. Better place it way back!" which already there typically gives you value. I guess it will just require some more getting used to. In my example I had 2 blues and 18 brims left on an objective. That isnt a lot of wounds. They would probably die to 2 Bastiladons shooting the following turn, where as getting additional Pinks and using a DD 1 would secure the objective for at least 2 rounds. Rolling a 1 meant he would get the objective. Guess it is tricky to figure out if it is worth it or not. The Ogroid spell is actually kind of interesting. I like the idea of implementing some healing to keep Kairos alive and perhaps counter some chip damage that would otherwise bracket him by turn 2 (like Comet's Call). Going from a D6 MW spell to a secured 6 flat MW is pretty big when you are trying to snipe something. Edit: I dont really see this list falling out of fashion anytime soon. I think it is currently at its worst against all the shooty lists that are really hot (at least in my playing field) - If things shift around and there is a much bigger focus on combat units, then I think it will only get better since you can comfortably sit back behind screens and dominate the midboard. I sometimes wish I had a screen or two of 10 Brims, especially to lock down my backline as I push forward, or simpy to layer up with screens against a potential double turn. I also cant really decide on my endless spells. I think Balewind Vortex is too good for the Changecaster, even if just for Fate Points. But as we talked about, sometimes the Changecaster is hot, sometimes he is not. I think thats a general theme with this list - Not every single piece is incredible against every single matchup, but the effects are powerful enough that it works regardless. Im a bit uncertain of Balewind Vortex on the Magister on Disc and his "Magic-touched" ability. What if you cast Balewind Vortex with a double, then cast his Bolt of Change on a double, will he die then? Or can you just say you used up the extra spell from the Balewind (prior to casting obviously), instead of using his extra spellcast from "Magic-touched"? Otherwise Balewind could be reasonable on him so he can cast his -1 hit/wound and his Bolt of Change with extended range and securing he wont suicide. When you need to zoom across the table, you can just auto dispell the Balewind. Spellportal is absolutely a must-take. The third slot is kinda where Im uncertain. Geminids is great for getting extra MWs and stacking -1 to hit, especially since you dont care as much about it being thrown back at ya with the way the army plays. I havent tried Daemonrift yet. I really like the Palisade against a shooty meta and as we talked about it offers some options to really mess with your opponent coupled with a Spawn and HD no retreat.

@Gwendar Been playing 5 games in a combination of IRL/TTS recently with the "control list" and it is a lot of fun! There is so much depth to the list, and it certainly isnt a list that plays itself unlike many other armies where you just slap them on the table and they will do all the work for you by default. I really like that you have such a huge toolbox so you almost have something against any given matchup - This is generally my issue with AoS - Where I play we typically make an "all comers list" instead of tailoring our list based on what we are gonna play against. This creates super frustrating situations at times where you have a list that dont really have a lot of tools against the given army it is gonna face. I havent felt like this yet with this list yet, since there is a tool for pretty much any job. Yesterday I played vs FoS Seraphon with Kroak package, 1 set of Skink heroes, Slann, 40 Skinks, 30 Skinks, 2 Bastiladons and Spellportal. Those 7 boardwide unbinds with +2 is super frustrating to play against! I also really hate Bastiladons with their immense threat range - Its almost impossible to hide from them, where as the Skinks can be screened easily. I outdropped him and opt'd to go first as we deployed our units - We played on Battle for the Pass but noticed his Skink heroes were rather far forward - So I deployed in such a way that I could 2+ Spellportal with the Blue Scribes and then DD 11 a Gift of Change into his Skink Priest right away. Used my Be'lakor on one of his Bastiladons in case he got the double, meant I likely wouldnt have to fear being dropped by 2 Bastiladons shooting twice in 2 turns. I won priority and managed to DD 9 a Wind of Chaos into his 40 Skinks. It did something stupid like 27 MWs. I love this spell against hordes! I rolled kinda hot on some of the 6s for D3 MWs. His face was priceless when he saw his 40 Skinks decimated in no time. The remaining ran to battleshock. I moved some Horrors + Kairics up to shoot his other 30 Skinks and reduced them significantly and he basically called it already there. I dont think it was entirely over, but his Kroak was sat so far back that I could easily cap the 2 middle objectives without getting within 22" of Kroak. I had no intention of pushing to his side of the board, although by turn 2 I had 25 fate points and could easily have ran my Blue Scribes up to summon 10 Pinks 9" away from his objective and then attempted a charge, or I could have bolstered one of the other objectives with another 50 Wounds. He basically only had 2 Bastiladons to deal any kind of damage by now, and even though they wreck Daemons, they arent clearing 10 Pinks any time soon. The score would have been 10-2 by the end of turn 2 and he couldnt really get to mine, so the game was probably over. Some general thoughts/questions Be'lakor Im really not entirely sure how Im meant to play Be'lakor once he is on the table and done his thing. I feel like he is "pretty much just there", hanging back. It is rare I have gotten Enfeeble off. Bastiladons would easily roast him since he is a Daemon, so it seemed pointless to run him forward - Maybe he could have just soaked some damage so my Horrors would have been more healthy? I decided to just keep him back and had him zone out a large part of my backline. My opponent could have teleported 40 Skinks in his turn 1 into the top side of my zone, but all he could do was shoot Be'lakor and then his Skinks were stranded near me and ready to be blasted, or lose all their buffs for his next turn, meaning they are kinda worthless. Seemed like a decent bait which he didnt take. Maybe his purpose is more against combat armies where he can move up behind a screen and cast Enfeeble on some combat unit? Changecaster Im really not sure about this guy. Again, Im really defensive against shooting armies. I feel like he's just sitting back on his Balewind, not in reach of anything. At least he is generating 2-3 Fate Points per turn quite reliable. I played against a Sureheart SCE list where he could sit behind screens and blast, but against any ranged army he's just sitting back? Maybe Im too afraid of losing the guy. Great-Bray Shaman I couldnt really decide between trying to Devolve something or just straight up casting Gift of Change to ensure a low wound hero would die. My fear is using Devolve through the Spellportal, only for my opponent to roll double 1s on the move.. The fact he is there really put a lot of fear into my opponent though. It was the first game with this guy over the Magister on a Disc. I think on a "normal" battleplan it would be easier to pull something forward and have my dudes be within 18" of the target - There is just so much space on Battle for the Pass. He might shine later on in the game where you can pull something off an objective, or pull a unit outside of a buff aura like HGB etc. Imagine pulling HGB outside of their 4+ spell ignore aura and then get blasted! Blue Scribes I keep forgetting to learn spells on a 4+. I probably wouldnt do it on every single spell, but learning stuff like Wind of Chaos is quite huge, since he can 2+ it through the Spellportal the following turns, if my opponent doesnt decide to dispell it. Thats insane against horde units like 40 Skinks. Fold Reality I have actually yet to cast this spell on my Horrors. Might be due to inexperience, but how aggressive are you with casting this? I had 1 unit that was basically 2 blues and 18 brims on an objective. I thought about throwing Fold Reality on them since there are "only" 22 wounds remanining. I just fear rolling a 1 and losing the objective, but rolling anything else, returning at least 1 banner guy and then DD 1 on the battleshock would really bolster the unit immensely. I guess you really need to calculate if you NEED the additional wounds to win the game vs playing it safe. Any indication for when you cast Fold Reality or you just risk it for the biscuit?

I would consider Hosts Arcanum. You get a free 6" move with Archaon and you also get 6 Screamers that you can send forward to screen or grab an objective (in an army that lacks bodies) while you buff up Archaon and force your opponent to do something about him. Not entirely sure about the spell on the Sorc Lord, but I would personally run something like this. Allegiance: Tzeentch- Change Coven: Hosts ArcanumLeadersArchaon the Everchosen (800)- Lore of Fate: Infusion ArcanumChaos Sorcerer Lord (110)- General- Command Trait: Spell Hunters- Artefact: The Fanged Circlet- Lore of Fate: Shield of FateKairos Fateweaver (400)- Lore of Change: Arcane TransformationBattleline10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)10 x Pink Horrors of Tzeentch (220)3 x Screamers of Tzeentch (80)Endless Spells / Terrain / CPsUmbral Spellportal (70)Geminids of Uhl-Gysh (60)Total: 1960 / 2000Extra Command Points: 0Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 68 DD the Reckless Abandon agenda to give Archaon +1 to all attacks. Arcane Transformation to give him another attack on Slayer of Kings. Infusion Arcanum to give him +1 hit/wound on all attacks. Daemonic Power to reroll all hits and wounds. Oracular Visions to reroll his 3+ save. Once hes in you can throw out Geminids to make stuff -2 to hit in combat against him. With Hosts Arcanum you are basically looking at a 20" move in turn 1 plus a charge of whatever your DD rolls (likely secured a 10"+ charge) to really get him stuck in.

I would love to man, but as Im still new to Tzeentch Im still having an awful time figuring out spells etc (I printed small Pokemon-like cards for the lore spells + warscroll spells), so I would prefer to get a better hang of them before wasting your time. 😅 Theres significantly more to keep track of than when I play Seraphon. Honestly I used to think Horrors were broken AF, but it was likely my inexperience with them. They get much worse in units of 20, but honestly almost any army got a way of dealing 20 damage in 1 turn to prevent you from DD 1 on the banner.

Brims arent too bad though, they could act as a backend screen to prevent deepstrikes as you push forward with your Pinks/casters (something I sometimes miss). Against super aggressive melee armies it never hurts to have a couple of layers of protection, since many units can easily chew through 50 wounds, but if the second layer is far enough back so they cant pile in, it doesnt matter if it is only 10 wounds, it will stop their charge. But yeah, the issue is points - Another issue is that with so many heroes not fitting into the batallion, you are not getting a low drop army either way, so what is really the point in bending your army list? The teleport is neat though, but not sure it is worth changing everything up. I just figured that 10 Skinks deal no damage and they wont really contest your Horrors on objectives. I can understand generally wanting to kill Kroak since his Celestial Deliverance/Stellar Tempest/Comet's Call really thins out Horrors and threatens some of the low wound heroes. I just figured 40 Skinks is such a juicy and easy target for Wind of Chaos, and it will force him to use a CP for Inspiring Presense 100% with all the deaths. Many Seraphon lists dont start with a CP, so if you get turn 1 and manage to throw it at them turn 1, they are really in neck deep. After those are gone there wont really be a whole lot of damage output beside Kroak. Maybe Kroak is a better target overall - But you could also throw Be'lakor at him and shut him down for 1-2 turns. Again, not trying to backseat - Im just trying to learn. Im building my Tzeentch army as is and have been playing some games on TTS so far. You are obviously great at the army and has been doing really well with it!

You can add Gotrek, Archaon (especially in Tzeentch), 6 Gore-Gruntas, 1 Maw-Krusha with neg3 rend artefact to the list of units that can easily remove a single Mega per turn. 😅 Might be talking from personal experience here.

Great batrep! It is always easy to backseat, but isnt ultimately the biggest threat in his list the 40 Skinks? Is there a reason why you didnt Spellportal + fate dice Wind of Chaos on the 40 in turn 2 to significantly reduce the incoming damage the following turns?

I would never put Kairos so far forward unless I knew beforehand if I was gonna take turn 1 or not. But if you have fewer drops than your opponent, then it is quite neat! I thought about trying change the control list to Changehost to limit drops, but having to field a normal Chicken really messes up with the points. I still want Kairos, Be'lakor and Manticore.. Good point about Gift of Change. Completely forgot about the FAQ that explains it. Still, I should generally be using his 2+ much more often past turn 1. Even if it is a 1/6 of failing, Im fairly sure it is significantly better odds than rolling 2D6. Especially in a world where Kroak/Slann is quite dominant.

Devolve is kinda a neat trick. Especially if you can grab something with fly so it moves over a screen or whatever. That combined with the 6” pregame move could certainly catch people offguard! Question - If Kairos casts Wind of Change with a Manticore nearby, I guess the Blue Scribes can roll a 4+ to learn it off Kairos? I think I need to abuse the 2+ on the Blue Scribes more often. Learning Gift of Change and Wind of Chaos is quite potent for the following turns after placing the Spellportal in turn 1.

I dont see why the other abilities shouldnt work. OBR is immune to battleshock. Do you really propose that FEC players keep track of exactly what models fled to battleshock and what models died in combat/shooting/magic? Because surely you cant return slain models with the Chalice if they fled, right?

Im just not convinced that this directly describes the difference between "count as slain" and "is slain" as you so desire it to be. The answer just explains that a unit is destroyed and count towards things such as kill points etc. regardless if you remove the unit due to a failed battleshock, or if it has been wiped in combat.

I cant find anywhere that describes the difference between "fled models that count as being slain" and straight up "slain models". Ultimately the model is dead and removed from play. Honestly I think the RAI is becoming "just as crazy". People make up their own rules and interpretations of rules, instead of keeping things simpler and just looking at what the rules say.

The Death Frenzy should work too. Otherwise what is the intention of "count as slain" at all then? Is it just for the old system of tiebreakers? It sounds like an awful mess if you have to keep track of what models died and what models fled from battleshock in regards to return/healing mechanics etc.

Dont know if it is better. I looked at the output of 30 Ardboyz and removing their 1 rend and pushing them to 4s to hit resulted in 30 Ardboyz going from 36 damage output vs 4+ save to 20. Thats a pretty big survivability boost. The GB deals significantly more damage on average but if you dont get +1 to hit, you are hitting on 4s with the flail, which is significantly worse than hitting on 3s tbh., especially in a world where a couple of the top armies have easy access to -1 hit (Seraphon and Tzeentch). Even if chopping your opponent is great, I just worry in situations where my opponent has significantly more mobility than me, and thus almost always getting the jump on my Mega-Gargant. It doesnt matter if he can clubber the enemy to death if he gets deleted in 1 round of combat before he hits.

Yeah the +1 vs heroes/wizards is neat. I have thought a lot about it in a double GB Breaker list, so you can attempt to snipe enemy heroes like Skink Priests, Warchanters etc. It would nullify Look-Out Sir. After playing some games Im not too keen on building for more damage. I feel the damage is "ok" and you are probably better off building for staying power to live another turn to secure VPs, rather than dealing a little more damage. I really like the idea of the Kraken-Eater with Extremely Intimidating (-1 to hit in melee) and the Chamon realm artefact (ignore rend 1 attacks), which will ultimately keep him around for longer. I feel like our bad matchups extra damage will not matter since they will likely take you off the board, whereas our good matchups extra damage isnt needed at all. In both cases being more tanky is IMO the way to go so far.

I looked through the FAQs again and it doesnt look super clearcut, but this FAQ does seem to indicate that it isnt a modifier, since it specifically mentions it happens after re-rolls but before modifiers are applied.

Is it set in stone that modifiers are only +/-to the roll of the dice? I thought changing the dice was considered a modifier.

Apologize if this has been discussed to death already but I tried searching without really finding a definitive answer here and been looking high and low elsewhere. In regards to the agenda Mass Conjuration, can you complete this with Mastery of Magic on either Kairos or Lord of Change due to flipping a dice as long as you roll a 5 or 6 ? Or will you have to roll a combinated natural 9+? Seems difficult to figure out if Mastery of Magic is counted as a modifer and thus making it a modified 9+.

Im still a bit on the fence, but ultimately I feel like SoB is one of those armies that will absolutely crush non-optimized lists by simply exsisting on the table, nevermind destroy squishy armies. Against the very top meta armies I think its looking rather grim. Many armies will very easily remove 1+ Mega per turn (some can comfortably remove 2) which you cant do a whole lot about due to their immense speed. I also think the result will very much depend on what battleplan you are playing on. My games so far have been VERY swingy and in about 10 games I have really only had 1 close match (fun semi shootcast list) which went all the way to turn 5 and I barely won by 2 points on Blade's Edge. Im still a bit annoyed at our Tribes.. Stomper is pretty disgusting against hordes of low wound models but it is kinda weaksauce against non-horde armies. Breaker is pretty awesome but if you pick the wrong loathing you basically get no benefit either. Taker is all around good, but again if you dont face horde armies, the increased model count doesnt really matter. I feel like picking your Tribe is very much hit or miss, where as other armies gain general benefits that work pretty much against any kind of army they face. This setup for the SoB sucks hard if you are into the "all-comer-list" gameplay rather than fixing a game with your mate and tailor your list accordingly. You can basically very easily run into situations where your alligiance abilities do 0 and all you have going is your warscroll abilities and the increased model count (which is great, no doubt).

From my own experience the KE is just not very impressive. You really rely on spiking high on the kick roll. So far I dont feel like he is worth it at all outside of Taker where he gets to do 3D6, which makes it a lot more reliable to get a reasonable distance and something you can actually rely on. Sure, the 1 hero + 9 MC lineup is gonna have trouble on Places of Arcane Power. A lot of armies dont have strong heroes, so you can probably aim to kill those while your WS sits and accumilates more and more VP each round. Otherwise it might just be a single battleplan you will have to give up for an overall (imo) stronger list. It is not really different than armies not purposely building to have stronger battleline units for Better Part of Valor.

What trait/artefact are you gonna roll with? Im gonna give Stomper a try even though I do believe in Breakers. Im still kinda undecided on the artefact and trait.. I feel like there are two builds you can go; Either you go for Very Shouty + Ironweld Cestus to generate CPs for shooting and for rerolling potential charges, plus making the WS significantly more tanky, which ultimately leads to him living more rounds and thus generating more VPs. The MWs on 6s to save will also be great against stuff with tons of no-rend attacks, where you will cause quite a bit of damage by return damage alone. Unfortunatenly it is only against melee attacks he has return damage. On the other hand you can go Eager for a Fight + Mantle of the Destroyer. This combo means you dont really need as many CPs (hence I wouldnt go Very Shouty) since 1) Your dudes will have Bravery 10, so you dont need a CP to Inspiring Presence if 2 small lads die. 2) You also get reroll charges on the small lads and himself, hence reducing the amount of CPs you need to reroll potential failed charges. Big boy moving 10" and charging 3D6 with a reroll means he will generally cover a lot of ground. Second thing Im torn about is going 3x3 Mancrushers or 2x3 + 3x1 setup. The first setup means you are a 4 drop and likely able to determine who goes first, which is kinda huge since we have little to mitigate the opponent getting a double turn, and I think we NEED the double turn against certain armies. With the 3x3 MC setup you are also looking at getting both an extra CP and very likely a triumph due to being at 1970 pts. Going 2x3 + 3x1 means you are looking at a 6 drop list, no extra CP and much less likely to get a triumph with you sitting at 1980. This list is a lot more flexible though, since you can leave a single MC in the back on an objective, and with it counting as 10 and having 12 wounds it is likely not dying/losing the objective to teleport shenanigans unless the opponent commits a big unit. Sending in a single MC to smash a bunch of Death Frenzied Plague Monks or whatever is also a lot more valuable, since the opponent is really only gonna get 1 MC killed from the rats fighting back after death. You also have the option of charging something with multiple singles, meaning the opponent has to split his attacks perfectly or he will suffer big time. The downside is that you only get to swing with 1 MC at a time, and they die kinda fast in melee, so I would probably rather get to swing with 3 at a time and ensure I kill whatever I charged. I think thats the greatest way of keeping them alive. In the case of Plague Monks you could probably just shoot them with 9xD3 attacks, dealing 24 damage on average against a 6+ save, then aim to charge and fight whatever else that isnt buffed by Death Frenzy. You have to decide between running + charging the MCs or shooting a big blob of whatever with their significant shooting attack. Being able to move the MC 8", then autorun 6" with a CP and potentially reroll their charge with Mantle seems like you could have an army that covers a lot of ground turn 1.

How do you plan to deal with bigger sized units of stuff like Ardboyz, Mortek Guard, rats, Skinks etc.? We have talked about it a couple of times but I just couldnt imagine playing with the Manticore.

I fought Stormcast with my Sons of Behemat the other day. Thought it was ironic that The Celestant-Prime charged 3 Mancrushers and killed 1, then got slapped and killed by the other in 2 in return. So much for the Prime killing their father. 😄

If this was the case Im fairly certain they would have made the Mega-Gargants stronger and thus more interesting to ally in. Imo there is no way they are worth 1/4 of your army + 1 CP without their alligiance abilities. Running a Mega-Gargant in your army is no different than allying in Gotrek. It is not optimal, it is just for fun.

I dont think it is at all. I have 2 groups of friends that I play with - One is VERY competitive and participates in pretty much any tournament that is available in our country and the neighbouring countries. They want to play and practice against hyper competitive lists because they play AoS to participate in tournaments. On the other hand I have a "fun night club" where people arent nearly as good at the game and dont have the same kind of knowledge of the rules etc. People take all kind of fun lists that arent tuned to the max. The difference between these two kind of groups is massive. Balance is not a concern in the second group because people dont care or arent good enough at making some of the absurd synergies work, which you usually see in the competitive lists. People bring whatever they want and just have a good time throwing dice while drinking beer. In the competitive group we discuss all kinds of (IMO) absurd wording of rules in case it might give someone an edge. From my own personal experience balance does not matter anywhere near as much when you play "casually" because you naturally wont run into the absurd situations. In the casual group we have Tzeentch players refusing to cast spells unless stuff is in range of said spells, because they believe it was abusing the rules. They self-regulate things and focus on RAI in their mind. The competitive players exclusively play RAW which causes all kind of ****** situations because I personally believe GW didnt intend for people to dissect every single rule sentence.