Frowny

A few thought- The Akhelian Corps is pretty flexible. You can fit everything except the 2nd Leviadon in there. I think you might be better served with some more units rather than the extra battalion. You'll already have 4 command points by the 3rd turn to spam the command ability if you want it with just one by then, which should be more than enough. You also don't have any characters to actually use the artifacts. Also, you are limited to only 1 extra command point purchase, and buying 2 and 2 battalions is a bit overkill with only one ability to use them. I would go -1 turtle -1 Corps -2 CP's +540 points of things you think are cool. For just starting out, you have a very honed competitive list- This is wonderful, but the battletome is pretty balanced, with a lot of reasonable options. If you are really just setting out and are not purely a competitive player, I'd try some of the other stuff. Thralls, the Eidolons and a few of the heros all have good play to them. More sharks are also reasonable. It would give you a better sense of what you want to play down the road. Also, you are likely to buy the start collecting to get some of the eels, so you'll probably have some thralls at least floating around.

Yup price is what stopped me from doing it too. Another idea is that most of the old horses are pretty armoredand could easily be mechanical underneath. Just replacing the legs with any robotic type leg would look very convincing as well. I think the rust stalkers have promising legs.

The adeptus mechanicus dogs would also make for very good mechanical horses if you want to go that route.

Mostly, I like and support your changes generally. They do feel too weak for their fluff and model scale. More specifically I'd prefer a 3rd wound but think you went to far with a 3+ save is a bit much. You buffed their points cost a bit but not enough to more than double their durability. And with better output. Poor chaos warriors, supposedly their equals are crying. But a lot of these changes are spot on. I'll never understand why the knight azyros with his massive sword is 1 damage.

Fight last is much much stronger than the no pile in thing. Don't get me wrong, no piling in is useful, but only when you can near-guarantee it on a target, like you can with 2 sharks (89% chance from 18 inches away). Either way, I think treelords need a lot more damage. I still think without fixing woods themselves and the core allegiance abilities, warscroll changes won't fundamentally help the army. Even if you make the army playable based on warscrolls alone, it won't FEEL like sylvaneth- you can make anything cheap enough and it will be strong, but the current problem is more that the actually allegiences and suballegiances basically don't work or don't do anything. I'd much prefer all woods to be single models and all of their affects extending to within 6 inches of any number of models. It would immediately fix 2 problems- difficult to place woods and the outrageous cost of buying enough.

I finally tried the thing I was wondering about- retreat+charge pistoliers + no pile in sharks. And it was indeed excellent. Allegiance: Cities of Sigmar- City: Tempest's EyeLeadersFreeguild General on Griffon (320)- Genera- Command Trait: Hawk-eyedCelestial Hurricanum w/ Battlemage (280)- Strike of EaglesBattleline10 x Pistoliers (200) 10 x Pistoliers (200) 10 x Pistoliers (200) 5 x Pistoliers (100) 5 x Pistoliers (100)Units3 x Alopex (330)- Main Gun: Net Launcher2 x Gyrocopters (140) Battalion (140)Total: 2000 / 2000 I was playing against a not-that-competitive cities of sigmar dark elf army- 30x darkshards with the battalion for +1 shot, 10 blood stalkers, 20x executioners, 20x black guard, 10x darkspears, 10x black guard 2x sorceresses, one on dragon and 5x harpies With 4 drops, I got first turn if I wanted it. I deployed the 2x5 man pistoliers units in the front, the 10 man units shortly behind. The sharks and griffons were oward one flank and the hurricanum was in the middle hiding in a woods. With an 18 inch deployment zone and a lot of shooting on his side of the board, I figured Id either need to get in and minimize his options or hang way back not to loose to much. I chose the former. I moved most of the army up. The sharks prevented pile in on the 2x 20 man dark elf units. The small pistolier quads shot their way through a screen and were able to charge his 2 shooting units, one getting to his darkshards and the other his sisters and did a few wounds. One was also able to be 2.5 inches away from his black guard, who couldn't pile in. The griffon and 10x Pistoliers on the other flank killed 10 black guard and Most of the executioners, again using the fact that I could engage 2 inches away with the griffon and use his reach (and the fact that they also couldn't pile on) to get favorable engagements. On his turn, he shot free his darkshards and stalkers but otherwise was pinned and couldn't do much damage, with the 20 executioners still engaged. He got the double turn and took several objectives with his harpies and darkspears, and finally did a bit of damage, shooting at my unengaged pistoliers, and doing 10 wounds to the griffon and a few more to the other 10 pistoliers. On my turn I cleaned out those same objectives with my remaining pistoliers, my sharks moved up and cleaned up his executioners, prevented the darkshards from piling in and I engaged them with a 2 random pistoliers. Now I got the double, finished off his sorceress on dragon and the gyrocpters+sharks ate his darkshards, leaving him with pretty much only the stalkers left. He conceded. Thoughts: It was exciting to see what the shark+pistolier combination could do if I were better. His list wasn't the most competitive, and he deployed too far forward so my 15 inch turn 1 pistolier charge could do a lot of pinning and some damage. However, I also did a few things wrong-I was too conservative with my hurricanum worrying that it would get sniped, but instead it did nothing. I also kept my 2nd wave of pistoliers weirdly back. They either need to be FURTHER back so he couldn't shoot them, or they needed to move up so they could contribute if I got the turn on t2. They also weren't well positioned on my own objectives to protect them. I basically never benefitted from the +1 to hit either. Still the combination of suicidal pistoliers in 5s with sharks is excellent. They can shoot through a screen and then nicely engage something behind it. And when that thing can't pile in, they are stuck doing no damage. Even if they kill you on their turn, when they finally pile in, you've held them in position wonderfully and done OK damage on the way. The sharks are also relatively good in combat themselves. It was pretty trivial to engage something 2.5 inches away with the pistoliers, so it couldn't do any damage while still doing full damage myself (since much of it was in the shooting phase). If I could do the list again, I would go -2 gyrocopters, -1 shark, +5 pistoliers, +5 outriders +3 aetherwings. I just needed more bodies to hold objectives. 2 nets seemed plenty to prevent pile-ins. I had included them since I was worried about big hordes with lots of wounds, since my overall damage output is low. But the sharks actually cover this pretty well, as bigger units are the most vulnerable to being unable to pile in. The new shadowstalker warband also seems objectively powerful, although this list is so fast I'm not sure it needs it and being lower drops is solid. Mostly I realize that this list has potential, or something like it. The flexibility of all our troops is solid, with very directable flexible output. Quite vulnerable to -1 to hit though, since pretty much everything hits on 4s. The griffon command ability and hurricanum help, but both have their limitations (only melee attacks, expensive vulnerable pieces).

My idea: 1) all wildwoods are a single base of the new model, not the whole circle thing. 2) all wildwoods perks (cover, -1 to hit for dryads etc.) Are granted to any unit where all models are within 6inches of any one or combination of wildwood trees. 3) teleport from within 6 inches of any combination of trees to wholly within 6 of a wholly different combination. 4) 1st spell cast per turn gets a free tree within 12 of the caster (18 of general) 5) 1st command ability on your turn grants a free tree within 12 of the user (18 of general) 6) standardize placement of woods to be anywhere more than 1 inch from other models and terrain-easier to place My logic- Now trees are smaller and easier to place and there are guaranteed. You get get them in 2 different ways and aren't entirely dependent on casts. Allowing combinations to cover the requirements means you can continue your cover as you advance up the board. I think this would create the right combination of covering your advance in woods and dependence on woods but also with more flexibility in how to actually use them. I'd also pondered rules where enemies could attacks he trees like models (cutting them down) but that seemed a little difficult to implement

Also seems a bit wizard heavy.... You can only say each spell once after all, and not all are always useful. Id consider trading one for a stormcast wizard and then dropping another for some more infantry or fast movers.

In the above, you could drop the witch elves and take some shadow stalkers. With the new book stalkers are also battle Line. I also think you might want to drop something to get a hag on cauldron. Maybe -5 sisters and then use the points to put one hag on an alter. You could also drop a 2nd 5 sisters for an avatar to get the +1 on prayers. Some ideas.

I'd love to see Real terrain rules- not just the random 'thing happens on a d6 of 1'. I think just importing the 40k rules would be pretty reasonable. Less fiddly combat- The 40k combat criteria (base to base of something in base to base of enemy) is way nicer than measuring 2 inch reach on a bunch of 32 mm bases. Just annoying. More counterplay to magic and prayers- Maybe + to unbinds if you are closer to them, creating incentives to get your guys within range. Anything wholly within 9 increased to wholly within 12 or 15''. I'm all for wholly within to constrain conga lines, but 9 is far too fiddly. 12 is also a bit fiddly if the unit makes the charge and the hero doesn't. I want my AOS to be about the decisions I make, not whether I can fiddle 3 extra bases to within 2 inch is not a fun experience for me. Little fiddling over a few bases really takes it away for me.

New mindrazor actually seems more reliable than old. The cast is slightly harder but being on the charge is way way easier than the bravery thing-it was basically dead vs certain ld10armies. Picking a unit that will charge is pretty easy to guarantee. It's not like you'd get it off against kroak or tecils was any more doable before. Also, stop with the negativity. Most of the nerfs were super expected. Everyone knew that it would get the wholly within treatment, and that the sub allegiances would get mandatory artifacts etc. That was a known. On the other hand, most of the buffs were interesting. Almost everything feels quite playable in some contexts, rather than just witch elves/sisters in hag gnar with a cauldron. Fall back and charge army wide is amazing. Teleport for a cp is also amazing. A spell to double damage, even unreliably, is stronger singlehandedly than some armies entire spell lore. Even hag gnar is excellent-even if you just look at it as army wide +1 to prayers, which is a major understatement, it would still be a solid ability. I'm optimistic. I don't think it will be a change host/kolseraphon broken army but I think it will have good gameplay even against the strongest opponents and will definitely be taking tourneys. Just not in exactly the configuration people are used to

I'm really liking the looks of this. Lots of options, and all the temples were really improved so well see a lot more choices, i think. Not just endless hag gnar. Fallback+charge is very strong, especially across the board. Witches are slightly worse bit a lot cheaper. I think a big unit will still do plenty of blending, although I think sisters of slaughter will now consistently edge them out. Shadow stalkers are bananas good. Having played with tree revenants before that warscroll alone is mind-blowingly powerful. Fighting twice on a 5+ is worlds more reliable and goes great with the 6inch pile in and activate. The first 6inch pile in let's you basically fight First and nearly kill your first target. Then if you get lucky, you can do it again! And if not, you at least mostly killed the first unit, so are still in a good position anyway. Witchbrew did take a nerf but it doesn't seem insurmountable. More like a nice thing when it works rather than to be relied upon but still fine to have. Khinari life takers as a 10x also seem interesting as a super fast high damage missile. I think we'll see a lot more diversity.

But once you are going for cheap sacrificial movers, Aetherwings are much cheaper, and the new DoK warband is better. Both are also sturdier with more wounds per point, even against no rend attacks. They also compete with things like 5 pistoiiers who are basically the same speed, but exchange fly for +4 wounds, much more damage and better synergy with the rest of the rest of your common units. Not saying that the value of fast moving screens to protect your hard hitters isn't great, but they aren't the ones you want to be using for this role, I suspect.

Ironically, i think that heart may be the sleeper winner. I'd guess it will be 50 points or less.-1 damage is totally crippling to some armies and it works nicely with DoKs already high reslience

I strongly support the double turn. I think it adds a lot of tactical depth to the game, where uncertainty in the present forces more interesting decisions in the present. Do I push further forward to better capitalize if I get the double or do I hang back in case I don't is an interesting decision. So too is planning for Mostly, I think it is most important for mitigating the 1st turn advantage. Strong t1 alphas are already very powerful. Without the reciprocal threat of a double back, I think certain armies with longer ranged shooting would be even more dominant. And they are already on the stronger end now. Look at 40k where T1 is absolutely massive. You can take the most objectives AND ALSO blow up a portion of your opponent before they can strike back. I think the double is a big part of the reason AoS is more balanced.

-Real cover rules. None of this reroll 1s or on 6's do a thing. Just normal regular stuff like blocking line of sight, giving +1 to save or something. You know. The stuff cover does. -Rules for how things move up and down and fight on levels. Ideally simple ones. -Range in combat determined by number of bases you can fight across rather than actual measuring. 40k Does this quite cleanly, and its much faster and less controversial. Also would buff everything on bigger bases, which is I think needed. 1 inch weapons= must be in base 2 base of target. 2 inch weapons= base to base of that model, 3 inches 1 further. In 40k its a lot less fiddly, without as much bother trying to position every model. Its also much less easy to abuse. -Battalions must be dropped all together or separately. No getting the best of both worlds, dropping 1 thing at a time and then still plunking down the rest for 1st turn. -Drops no longer determines turn order. Turn 1 is a roll off, with lowest drops winning ties. A lot of armies are less abusive when they can't guarantee turn 1 for the alpha or turn 2 for the possible double. It would also tone down the strength of the double when you can't plan for it. -Shooting into combat, including if you are in it is -1. Give shooting a slight nerf. Its already pretty strong right now. Bigger than all of these things A Coherent and careful communication policy from GW. The FAQ being delayed 2 months only for them to not do anything is just ridiculous. I'd understand if they didn't want to change anything given covid and everything, but then why wait 2 months? Clarity about which armies are getting upgraded and dropped, More thorough FAQ clarificications (the rules ones, not the balance changing ones). There are a ton of good questions I've heard posted here without clear rules answers that GW never addresses. This should be relatively easy to do.

This sounds kinda fun. Sounds like mostly a lore suggestion rather than a balance one. Just have them write short stories when there are major in points to help sell the new stats. Like a greatswords company gets decimated in a hard battle Bit learns from it, now being rarer but better, justifying a stat+point increase that they wanted to make anyway for unrelated balance reasons either internal or external

Steam tanks are usually regarded as pretty terrible with low damage output for their points, but yes, the regeneration and command ability are both reasonable. First, I think given your steam tank theme you might have too many sylvaneth models. Durthu is solid, but treelord ancients are pretty bad. Also, if you use his woods forward, to give durthu the +2 attacks, you can't also use it near the back to give the branchwych. I might drop both of those 2. Durthu is also much better with artifacts and command traits, which he carries admirably if you can swing it. The next question is the gyros. Generally, people think the steam cannons are much better than the brimstone guns, although are obviously better with the command ability. If you want to use the command ability aggressively, I'd combine them into a single squad for more efficiency, and maybe even consider gyrobombers, for that sweet double bombing (You can do that right?). Either that or just switch to steam cannons for some horde killing. Why a cogsmith? I think they aren't great. Maybe drop them unless I'm missing something With your extra points you maybe could just use something to solid to hold your backfield or deepstrike to take enemy objectives. Handgunners seem to fit your theme pretty well and don't need much support. Finally, instead of the ordinator, you could consider a celestial huricanum. They are generally considered quite useful and strong and recreate the most important part of the ordinator while also buffing any other units you might add. Or giving you a 2nd bubble of +1 to hit. They can also fire and fade nicely with their shooting attack and healing a wound a turn keeps them around a touch longer. Your theme is also pretty strong. It would still be strong with 4 tanks instead of 5, and your list would be much stronger with less of the awesome to play and super cool but quite weak steam tanks Something like Steamtank w/ commander Hurricanum w/ battlemage Durthu Steamtank x3 3x gyrobombers (squad of 3) 10x handgunners (and add more if you have the points- I didn't do the math). Extra CP

I was thinking more along the lines of a multi charge. For example, get unit A with the nets, charge nearby unit B with a bunch of stuff but during my charge, tag unit A on an edge or corner 2.5 inches out. Hopefully I mostly wipe out unit B minimizing damage there, and then unit A can do zero damage my turn (with 2 inch or less weapons) and then nearly zero damage their turn with only a few models making it on the pile in. Then rinse and repeat.

Looking at the warscroll for the Idoneth sharks, the cant-pile-in seems very strong. As a unit they are also relatively self-contained- while obviously the idoneth allegiance abilities help them, they also do fine on their own and dont need command abilities/spells to make them shine. This has me pondering them as allies, especially for CoS or DoK. With CoS i'm wondering how powerful it might be with pistoliers who do their damage in the charge phase, or in DoK with sisters of slaughter, to abuse the 6 inch pile in on sisters of slaughter even more. While not amazing on their own, the sharks also do OK damage for their cost. I'm considering 2 of them for the 8/9ths chance of getting off the no pile in if needed (2 shots on the net launchers). Interestingly they don't seem used a lot in the idoneth book itself, so am wondering if the ability isn't as strong as I think it is in my head. Has anyone used them with the net launchers specifically as allies?

This. Super excited to see some of the coolest models in use, but they didn't fix eel spam, which was already strong. They just gave it additional tools that make eels even stronger. Also, all of you with your comparisons are totally missing the speed and fly. Yes it does less damage than hard hitting infantry, but it also moves twice as fast and flies. Thats huge. The reason eels are so good is heavily because of their awesome mobility. Comparing a unit of 4 inch moving hammerers to a 10 inch move flier on a more mobile base (1 base vs 20) is not correct. I think the turtle could use +20 points. And a warscroll rewrite on the eels to make them not benefit from the + to save just like ethereal units.

If the umbraneth are anything like the warcry warband, I'll immediately start collecting them. I've been hoping to do a night haunt based daughters of khaine kitbash/conversion army and I can't seem to find a home for the idea in the current setup

Pistoliers. You get almost full damage on your charge and they then can do almost none in return.

Relatedly has anyone thought about the new sharks in tempests eye? They seem very well suited to abuse the no piling in since so much of their damage is in the shooting phase. Charge a different target but leave 1 model within 3 inches of a 2nd unit that's been better. Now they can't pile in on your turn, and on theirs can either call back (bit can't charge) or can finally pile in but get only 1 or 2 models in range. Also the rend 2 bites seem reasonable as well.

I'd love to see the wildwoods change to a single tree, not a circle of 3. Then put all the buffs on a wholly within 6 inches or 12 inches, and with clever wording such as "dryad units are at -1 to hit in melee as long as all models from this unit are wholly within 6 inches of any or any combination of sylvan wildwood models." Now they are easier to place because you only need 1 model, and you can use them to cover your advance as you slowly push forward and cover the board in trees. Then you need to give them better abilities to cummin them. I'd favor something like "the first time you cast a spell each turn and the first time you use a command ability each turn you may place a sylvan wildwood wholly within 12 inches of that model." Now you slowly tree up the board and move up heroes to keep foresting forward