Rachmani

Son of a b*tch! Gosh, you got my hopes up. That would be awesome!

This, so much. I actually really like the idea behind it. The whole Prime stuff. I don't however, really like it being used as a band aid that only targets specific units or armies.

I wrote the same in the rumour thread but if we look back, january has been the traditional month of chaos releases. So that is when I would expect a Khorne release. Thematically the Khorne doesn’t need a lot of shenanigans. Their troops need to be relatively fast, unrelenting & capable. They should not be unstoppable in melee, but always cause carnage. So I think a good statline, relatively few shenanigans and relentless fury as a command ability should be a good starting point.

There is a relatively clear pattern of one chaos god book a year. I fully expect the blades of Khorne to get theirs in january (maybe a tad delayed as it was the case with nurgle). Khorne just needs better units, which can’t be done in a tome celestial. Thematic would be units that are pretty straight forward but just very good in combat. So that other armies can beat them - in melee even - but not without tricks. I‘d also change Relentless fury to a command ability. Khorne doesn’t care who dies, just how many skulls he gets.

As long as frightful touch does mortals on wound instead of hit I think it would be fine.

That’s really quite funny, as I think that Kruleboys have one of the best starting ranges of the last few years. It just feels like they forgot 1-3 units to differentiate the playstyle. (Hobgrot cav, gutrippa cav & a cheap, nonhero monster).

I agree. Just got a vibe that gradually turned away from the "curious" and towards the "negative" so I wanted to gently remind all of us (including myself!) that the book actually looks pretty well written. Points can be fixed, Slaangor probably can't (without a rewrite).

The problem is mostly that bravery was never fully developed as a combat mechanic. Which in turn meant that it never got a balance pass beyond battleshock. So now, whenever an army or just a few warscrolls introduce bravery as a means of dealing damage, balance jumps out the window and is nowhere to be seen.

Well, I think one thing that can be said about the book is, that there is not a single warscroll that is bad within itself. Some stuff might not be priced right, but that's about it. Even eels, the apparent "losers" of this book aren't bad per se (or at all). (I know that in theory you could just lower the price of a unit to a point where everything becomes good, but I'm talking within reasonable ranges of point corrections here). So I don't think that doom & gloom is justified. Personally I'm rather positive, apart from coping with 500 point Shelley.

I‘m with you on that one, but SCE are their own little matter. Maybe they sort themselves out and the options end up way less good in the future.

Do you guys really see no place for eels? Tank eels look like a pretty perfect first charge to me. Unmodified 3+ save, solid weapons. They surely get their turn 2 charge.

Too slow!

I agree with the last part, but am not sure that a balanced approach won’t work. Thralls, as good as they look are not eels in terms of speed etc. I wouldn’t be surprised if the book it turns out that the book has deep pockets.

I agree it looks decently synergistic without warscroll-ability bloat. To be fair, though. The old book aged well, so the Idoneth were kinda well written from the get go. I'd be very happy if a list with a good mixture of units would actually be good. I would want to spam neither eels, nor thralls or sharks. But some of everything I'd actually paint and play with. Edit: I was literally going to type "I don't like 4+ on thralls, feels thematically wrong" and just read, that apparently rob made a mistake? Well, then I'll reserve my judgement. Looks like great book.

To be fair, that is one dope looking stormcast!

Well… There is a reason, DoK get their new book after Idoneth & Fyreslayers. I have some hopes for that book.

There is no single stat to determine the power of an army. Winrate, tourneys won, etc. all together form the bigger picture that then does or doesn't need to be addressed.

Strong and well written is not the same, one can be either without the other. Truly great products are both, though.

The „problem“ is never whether the initial reaction will be right or not, but rather that up until we get at least a glimpse of the bigger picture, we don‘t know enough to form a proper opinion. Take that Command Ability for example. As of now we know that it’s available for every lodge. What we don’t know is, whar Helmdar gets in exchange. Maybe Helmdar will be able to use it more often a turn and more than once on a particular unit. There simply is too much unknown. edit: just to be clear, I can relate to the fear pf one’s favourite army getting nerfed (especially when it’s not S+ tier to begin with) & how that kills the mood. But that makes it even more important to voice cool headed opinions. Doesn‘t happen out of spite, but rather to shift the focus of those who see a grim future ahead.

No, you misunderstood my point. Up until release it wasn't clear how the whole Nurgle package would look like. Same here. We can't tell until we get all the info.

Remember everyone was underwhelmed by Nurgle up until release. Now it seems to be in a good spot.

It's not just the last 10+ posts. Feels like every post ever on every new army on the horizon and beyond.

It’s not meant to be tone deaf. In fact the opposite. I wanted to make the argument that prices don’t exist in a vacuum and people of all incomes can be sensitive to what they get in return. So while you might want to pay a premium on the best miniature ever, you certainly wont on 20 year old freeguild. That’s GWs biggest problem. They undermine the strength of their IP by charging a premium but not always delivering on the quality of the product. The hobby was always an expensive one. The price hikes exist in a long row of price hikes, met with the same arguments that led to very little. GW stayed the way it was. You can meet that with different responses. One of which are third party miniatures. To me they are band aid I can sympathise with but they stay a band aid. It‘s an acknowledgment of GWs strength as a gaming system, which they have a strong influence on. They might rip of tropes or other IPs and what not; but in the end, they’re producing it. You bring up WotC and DnD and sure; what you do at home nobody cares about, but try bringing proxy cards to a Magic Tournament? In my opinion, what we really need is strong competition outside GW. Strong games they have no direct influence on, so that through competition their products will become better. (Or something better replaces them.)

Maybe, but we don't know what rules get rolled into other stuff. It might end up being a command trait, on the sharks war scroll etc.

I'm well off, so I don't have to worry about prices, but even though I am - and here lies their mistake I think - they'd never get me to buy those old ugly a** sculpts. So even if I like parts of an army (let's take the new Thunderstrike Stormcasts, but Cities of Sigmar, Seraphs or Skaven would be equal examples), I wouldn't buy into it, if I couldn't build something that works well on the tabletop side of things with out those old sculpts - I'm looking at you Longstrikes etc. . So in that sense, they either lose money (as I don't have a fixed hobby budget and stuff I've always wanted to buy instead - I just buy less) or they could give me the incentive to buy some of their stuff by allowing third party miniatures to some degree. (Before you get the wrong impression. It's not that I buy tons of miniatures every month, throwing money at GW. Even though playing the game is important to me, I still paint more than I play etc. I just don't have to do the math when I like a release. Basically I sit down with the army book and if I feel like I can build cool & somewhat good armies with miniatures I like, I buy them and work my way through them. Kruleboys were one of those armies, SCE could have been, but the old stuff is too important, so I opted out.) The second part of the argument you bring up has some merit in my opinion, but there is still a clear difference between using tropes and going of to create your own IP and blatantly producing third party material for an existing IP. It's still not an easy case though, what is ok and what not, difficult enough in fact, that I'm pretty sure even lawyers would scratch their heads. And you can be all rebel about it (which is fair) but by not agreeing with "our rules with our miniatures" (which, again, I'm not saying you shouldn't) you're also saying "I want to use your universe, your IP, your intellectual property - but I don't want to pay you extra". And that's fine on a personal level, but I wouldn't expect any leeway, support or acceptance from the guys that want to sell you miniatures to their games. And as long as miniatures make up for the majority of income, it will stay that way. Now, what you should absolutely do and what I 100% support, is branch out, try other games, push for them to get more significant market shares, so that GW gets actual competition. P.S. Small producers imo don't hurt anyone and should be left alone. If anything they're the little bit of competition that there is. P.S.S. I think it was Games Workshop that came up with or at least had a big part in the original design of what would later become the stereotypical "orc". So it's not like their IPs don't get recycled as well.