Nullius

I agree. This was a great time for model design. The kits were hand sculpted but the studio had developed for a generation and become extremely good at it. I just painted Wulfrik the Wanderer and an old Archeon and I adore them. That being said, By comparison, the company was catastrophically badly run in the mid to late 2000’s and nearly lost their collective hats. There were even rumors of selling the company after ‘08. The changes that were made organizationally were what turned the company into a profit engine.

Most recasters are operating out of their garage and selling a few score kits a year. They are trying to make a quick buck typically in a country where it goes far and there is no enforcement of IP. (Russia, China, etc) There are many recasters, at least a few hundred active ones, particularly a few years back when big forge world kits were highly prized. They are not running a business, just parasitizing somebody else’s work for fun and profit. economy of scale is effective for plastic after selling a thousands of kits. For resin the manufacturing process is slower with a higher fail rate, (as high as 1/4) and there is overhead. Also, the sort of scale your talking about requires storage space, which is also expensive continuously. there are also fewer customers for a given product. How many Imperial Titan customers do you suppose there are in the world? A few thousand is probably on the right order of magnitude. So we have a few hundred active recasters making a few score large kits annually, and a customer base of a few thousand for, say, a reaver Titan. that will take a bite out of forge world’s very niche business. No matter how cheap the kits are priced, recasters in developing countries will always be able to beat the price so long as the shipping cost doesn’t become overwhelming. what you’re arguing is that people don’t generally steal, say, books from a Barnes and Nobel because they could never successfully operate their own illegal Barnes and Nobel bookstore with what they manage to steal. Running a bookstore isn’t their goal. while Games Workshop is indeed a profitable company, it’s not because they are unfairly pricing their toy monsters. Lol. The company has a few distinct advantages. One is that as a company they don’t accrue debt. Consequently they spend dramatically less on servicing debt than any company of similar size would. (servicing debt is typically a massive operating cost for any business) They also don’t advertise, probably because advertising is usually funded with debt arranged on prospective business growth and they hate debt. The company has almost NO middle management, having disassembled all their regional offices over a decade ago and putting entire continental regions under the control of individual directors. The stores have almost no staff, nearly each shop being run by one person with a great deal of automation for inventory and management. When the company exceeds the margins called for in order to pay stock dividends for the fiscal year, and to put up cash flow for its next development cycle, the company gives the excess profit back to the staff and store managers, enhancing loyalty and keeping qualified personnel often for five years or more. (Many store managers work for the company basically for life). They also offer a wildly generous benefit package by the standards of, say, American companies -so the retention rate for managers with families (most, eventually) is higher and training costs are consequently lower. the Black Library and licensing the IP are the most purely profitable portions of GW, model. Online sales of 40k in the US is behind that, then sigmar, then a tier lower is sales from actual stores (much less profitable because of rent, upkeep, salaries and benefits) and then sales from trade accounts (less margin on the sale but no overhead for GW aside from managing the trade accounts regionally). Forge world sales are a distant last in profitability, with some exceptions (Horus heresy did VERY well for a while. Not so much anymore). the company expects each of these branches to turn a profit, as they prefer not to run any part of the company at a loss. Different divisions of the company operate at different expected profits. Cash flow is the key though, because if one division is operating at a loss and cash flow is impacted then again debt rears its ugly head. GW has never failed to pay dividends and despises debt. the company is actually exceedingly well-run, in my experience. (It wasn’t always, btw). Forge world as a business model (hand sculpted kits in poured resin) is probably simply coming to an end. It’s too niche, the hand sculpting process is too slow compared to autocad (occupying an artist potentially for months on a single large model) and too easy to rip off. The specialist games have been hugely successful, by comparison. Forge world has done a lovely job with Necromunda, with aeronautica, Titanicus, and with Blood Bowl, and they’ve all been hit and produced at scale. They are beautiful little rules sets and such a pleasure to build and paint. No doubt Battlefleet Gothic is in the pipeline, third edition Necromunda, Blood Bowl is in its new edition already, and probably epic eventually. This is where forge world is heading. The big old resin kits, I predict, will be gone in a couple years aside from the Titans and a handful of other superheavies.

Indeed. It began when they first decided to do forge world sized kits in the end times. I imagine there was a long discussion about resin recasting, 3-d printing not yet being widely available. realizing that the recasting market grows in feasibility as the price tags on the large models go up, they had to find a solution. I would imagine the CEO at that time was rather fanatical about it. The embedded skulls throughout all the end times releases (on Archeaon and the Mortarchs -for example) are impossible to recast without flaws and bubbles and the support of Archaon on his tale and Nagash on his swirling spirits would sag under its own weight in resin. with more contemporary kits there is the addition of design elements that would be too brittle with 3-d printing technology, hence Lumineth Spears, the Nighthaunt range, and all the fiddly bits on models like mortarion or Avelenor. modern Warhammer figs can ONLY be achieved (for now) with high temperature, high pressure injection molded plastic and large steel molds machined to precise tolerances. GW, who spend an inordinate amount on R&D for a toy company, hold proprietary patents that allow them to achieve models that other companies cannot yet match (I’m not speaking of aesthetic qualities, but of technical qualities). Nobody in the market can produce a model like Lady Olynder-for example. She would be nightmarish to recast in resin and would collapse in the process of removing the supports if you 3-d printed her. In either case you would have a flawed, obvious, and extremely delicate, reproduction.

I agree with much of what you’re saying, but the simple fact when it comes to using price as a justification for stealing is that no matter what the price point it, recasters will be able to beat it. they can do so because they didn’t incur the expense of employing the artists or writers and do not need to rent the warehouse space. They didn’t establish the IP, or the publishing house, and they didn’t pay for the marketing or the digital infrastructure. the percentage by which they undercut the prices of forge world is a relatively small chunk of change when it comes to small models like Necromunda bounty Hunters or 30k characters or whatever. Who really cares about 20% off a $30 model? But when the model is hundreds of dollars that discount becomes very appealing. the large models in the main plastic line sidestep this issue by designing the models in such a way that can only be recreated with proprietary injection-molded plastic technology, and that proprietary tech is safely kept in the factories in the UK and NOT overseas where it would be stolen and replicated. (The intentional difficulty of recasting gives us the ubiquitous fiddly bits and unusual weight distribution that almost all the large kits now have). Forge world kits ,by definition, are designed to be easy to cast in resin. That fact will ultimately doom all the large kits, excepting the gigantic kits like Warlord Titans whose buyers aren’t very price sensitive. It’s simply not worth the shelf space, let alone the artists’ time. Pity, as I love the big hand-sculpted kits.

The reason these kits go off market to begin with is because they are recast within weeks of release. The recasters prefer to take advantage of the free (for them) marketing around the time of a model’s release. This allows them to maximize their opportunity to parasitize the work of others and the better harness the grotesque sense of entitlement that many gamers have. (also, “Disastrous Mismanagement” may be a bit hyperbolic, particularly for a company that outperformed most of the London Stock Exchange last quarter and has never failed to pay dividends in it’s decades of existence and has never lost control of their IP or been sold to a large conglomerate). The piracy is a primary issue, especially where a niche within a niche hobby is concerned. I don’t suppose you’ve asked yourself why large figures in plastic post end-times invariably have loads of tiny thin bits on them (lightning, smoke...the entire Nighthaunt range, etc), and why the end times stuff was loaded with recessed details of skulls. it’s, in part, to thwart recasters and 3D printing with details that foul their process. if you design a product to net a profit (after paying artists’ salaries and benefits for full time work, plus studio space, plus writers, tools, networks, leases on buildings, leases of warehouse storage, manufacturing, quality control, insurance, middle managers, etc etc etc) and your expected sales are cut by 10% loss to recasters (the actual number is likely higher), then you are likely to miss your mark. There is little point in continuing to produce these products or to even bother storing kits in your warehouse. discontinued kits are an exception, but the discontinuation of kits is connected to recasting to begin with.

Petrifex nerf was sorely needed, but it should have just specified that all Petrifex Elite models *of FOUR OR MORE WOUNDS have +1 to their save in close combat. Petrifex is supposed to be a legion of primarily giant monsters, where the big guys are supposed to shine. The problem was that the buff effected the already frustratingly hard-to-kill Mortek Guard (which aren’t really supposed to be a prevalent part of the Petrifex). This would have opened up a fun alternate build for OBR with immortis guard standing in for Mortek Guard and Morghasts flying all over the place.

They are a mirror to Nagash, or at least his more noble qualities. They are relentless, patient, refined, and ruthless. Intelligent ,certainly, and sophisticated in all their pursuits-be it war, art, or scholarship. They are Fixated on rank and order and society reimagined as a perfect utopia, free from chaos yes, but also free of the intrinsic chaos of the living. they have no malice towards the living like the Nighthaunt, and they lack the guile and treachery of Nagash embodied in Neferata and Manfred. the Ossiarchs are fighting in pursuit of a utopian ideal that will take aeons to achieve, and all they ask for in exchange is bone. In the recent novella by Guymer, they aren’t even described as especially bloodthirsty. They seem disappointed when things dissolve into violence, considering warfare to be akin to slaughtering the sheep instead of sheering it. the Ossiarchs are a bit of a dark mirror of the Stormcast.

What is being described as a bug in this thread is an intentional feature. the designers obviously intend there to be a tension between armies composed of every single one of the most ideal units tasked for the job they excel at, and armies with powerful synergies but limited unit choice. the purpose of this approach is to offer an alternative to the sort of “soup” lists that make for a vastly less interesting meta that the one the op is describing. Remember when every order army had a unit of Skinks in it? Remember how fun and immersive that was? Yeah, neither do I. the spectrum of army building is supposed to have picking the best tools off the shelf on one end, and getting maximum horsepower out of one or two tools on the other. This is a delicate balance. If the Grand Alliance Allegiences were just a LITTLE bit better, the balance would tilt and -for example- every death army would be supported by a pair of OBR catapults and be led by a Ghoul King on Terrorgheist with Reapers as battle line etc etc. the current system incentivized themed builds, and I prefer this to the soup approach myself, although it is admittedly a delicate balance. if the Grand Alliances had a spell lore each, and maybe one more allegiance ability, I think it would be a good thing, but they should never have armywide capabilities commensurate with building your army around narrower and narrower keywords.

I feel you, but unfortunately I don’ see it being cost effective or practical for Forge World to try to compete with recasters. It also must feel damned frustrating and disappointing to the artists responsible for these magnificent hand-sculpted kits. But gamers can be an entitled bunch, and people who would never consider -say- stealing a candy bar or snatching a stranger’s wallet, see no problem at all in stealing from artists at forge world. They believe they have the right to pick the price for someone else’s work.

I want to run Nagash and an Aegis Immortal and I’m thinking about doing it like this Allegiance: DeathMortal Realm: ShyishLeadersNagash, Supreme Lord of the Undead (880)- GeneralBattleline10 x Zombies (60)10 x Zombies (60)10 x Zombies (60)10 x Zombies (60)10 x Zombies (60)Units3 x Immortis Guard (180)3 x Immortis Guard (180)4 x Morghast Archai (380)- Spirit HalberdsBattalionsAegis Immortal (80)Total: 2000 / 2000Extra Command Points: 1Allies: 0 / 400Wounds: 114 the layers of zombies advance in depth, leaving no gaps for flying chargers and pinning fast movers in place by forcing them to get through multiple units. Nagash goes dead center and wails on unis with Arcane Bolt and CC attacks, plus a bit of healing every hero phase. The aegis advances with him tanking wounds. The formation breaks apart and goes hunting individual units in the mid game. trying to fit nagash in OBR made me realize he doesn’t really benefit from the OBR allegience abilities and neither do Immortis guard nor Morghasts so A friend pointed out that Grand Alliance Death made more sense.

I think piracy is a central problem here, especially where the larger models are concerned. A significant proportion of gamers feel entitled to buy a pirated recast if they think the price for forge world is too high. (In their opinion) The recasters are very quick. The purpose of the occasionally baroque detail in the plastic large models is that it’s impossible to recast without the original injection-molded technology (Which is proprietary). But large resin models are easy to recast because they are cast in resin in the first place.

SPOILERS BELOW (..the heroes of the story were ultimately doomed only dawns on the reader slowly, and with growing dread. And, although the Fyreslayers died gloriously and horrifically the way the author subverted expectations and had the protagonist do the entirely reasonable thing by deserting To save her children was satisfyingly and bleak and realistic, reminding us that -despite her bravado and lust for revenge- she was still a woman and a mother. You could really feel her agony at making the decision. I also like that the Ossiarchs were all...I don’t want to say saddened but certainly disappointed that it came to war. In the army book they are sometimes portrayed as quite diabolical but here they felt reasonable In their own alien way. The destruction of the town was avoidable and a failure in the Liege’s opinion. Even the Soul Mason in charge of the delegation seemed eager to find some interpretation of Nagash’s law that might get them out of having to extinguish a vital resource. (The bit about him sending away for the times of the Princess Necrotopia -which arrived in a giant ossified beetle with book cases built into it was a morbid delight) I also loved their perfect manners and cultural sophistication counter posed with their inhumanity and callousness. It was very memorable when they tried to serve the human delegation fine wine served out of what were most likely the skulls of their ancestors and dead family members and didn’t realize they might give offense in so doing, after all to the BoneReapers they are just wine glasses. in this respect, the Ossiarchs become a Symbol of imperial powers throughout human history, no full of malice per se, but who consider their vassals to be a resource to be exploited mercilessly, but nothing more. There is no passion in their mercantile need to harvest bone. Made me like the BoneReapers much more. They are less a symbol of nagash’s tyranny and unquenchable rapaciousness and more a culture in and of themselves.

Yeah this felt like PROPER Warhammer, it was unrelentingly grim, but the realization that... ...just realized I don’t know how to make the little “hide contents” box to hide spoilers. What do I have to type?

I’m not so sure. I think there is a rich vein to be mined in the Darkoath concept. There is room for standard pagans, like the old norsicans. Norsicans honored Sigmar, grungi, Ulric, Morr, and so forth AND the chaos gods all equally, depending on the season and the need. In other words, the dark oath would represent the vast majority of the survivors of the age of chaos. They would honor Sigmar, Nagash, all Arielle, and the whole pantheon of Order, but also the Dark gods. They would be tragically tainted, and almost on the Path to Glory, but they would be very relatable, almost heroic Survivors above all else. If I were a designer, I would tug on this thread. It’s in the name “Dark-Oath,” as in these are not cultists of the dark gods. These are ordinary folks who have sworn an oath, or taken a fated quest for the dark gods, setting their feet on the path, perhaps for just reasons, or simply for survival. They would be a human faction, and relatable, with a hint of tragedy. It would also clarify why the Warcry warbands have the “cultist,” keyword. Their adherence to a chaos cult or creed would put them at a step removed from ordinary human survivors living in the wreckage of the mortal realms. Those ordinary, desperate, and heroic survivors would be the Dark Oath.

Oh I would be fairly confident that a number of Kurnothi units make their way into the next Sylvaneth Army book. It’s in the name; Fauns, Centaurs, and various sylvan fairy Creatures are right on theme for Sylvaneth, and Kurnoth is an opportunity for another centerpiece for what has proven a perennially popular army. I expect there is also a massive dark oath release somewhere out there waiting in the wings. (Either that it’s the dark oath units were repurposed for Warcry and Slaves to Darkness). That leaves the wolf riders, who may also turn up in a green skin army book sooner or later. since 2nd edition was all about nagash, I would expect the death faction has one more big fanged release left in it. We have AoS ghosts (nighthaunt), AoS Skeletons (OBR), so it stands to reason that Manfred, Neferata, and all their scheming offspring will land somewhere. The fact that the symbol on the preview is basically the skull faced head of Manfred’s Dread abyssal says it all.

I’d say Soulblight confirmed! That symbol is basically the skull mask of manfred’s dread abyssal.

Yeah this symbol is just like Manfred’s dread abyssal’s face. Soulblight faction basically confirmed. Wohoo!

Hey folks, just starting to get some paint on my BoneReapers army and read the new seasonal novella by David Guymer. I loved it (especially for under ten dollars) and feel like chatting about it. What did you all think? (Let’s keep spoilers properly marked to protect those who are thinking about reading it but haven’t done so yet).

That’s true. That’s why I don’t hate it. It makes good narrative sense, but it might be tricky to run a tournament.

The raptor prime easily removes two 8-10 wound models per activation. All he needs is onslaught. If, heaven forbid, he gets a quad, it becomes far crazier. On quad sixes I’ve seen him pump out over fifty wounds of damage in a 2 activations, killing any model in the game from 20 inches away. Each vanguard model hits as hard as a champion from 8 inches away. Get onslaught off on them and they will also remove an 8-10 wound enemy model per activation, sometimes 2 if they roll hot. Stormcast exterminate the enemy warband while aetherwings snatch the objectives. In a pinch a double five or six makes stormcast movement 7, which means they’re actuallly very hard to lock down.

Ruh-roh. Has anyone played against stormcast yet? Not sure this warband got playtested very much. They are nearly unbeatable with the current points. Each stormcast removes 1-2 models per turn at range. The starter set warbands are usually tabled by the end of turn 2. Has anyone found a solution? You can run a 15-man horde against them but that just pushes the wipe-out to the end of turn 3 (or sooner with the weaker models in the 15-man band), and they still have aetherwings to take all the objectives after you’re dead. Makes sense fluff-wise but not the most exciting gaming experience. It’s like fighting imperial knights with guardsmen. Please post if you’ve found a weakness that can be exploited.

I’m gonna guess a mobile artillery piece with a buff/debuff aura and a bunch of low damage rending attacks in close combat and a 3” reach with the snake tentacles.

Ok got it. Is that from the faq? Thanks!

Hey all, if this question has been addressed elsewhere I extend my apologies: the Charnel Throne, rules as written, seems to suggest that it would confer the ability (within 1”) to use the Summon Men at Arms command ability to any ABORRANT GHOUL KING. Both the fella on the terrorgiest and the one on the zombie dragon have precisely that keyword. Do you all think they should be able to summon ten ghouls to a battlefield edge when near the throne? Or was this wording an oversight?

Wow there is sure a surprising amount of complaining going on here. I, for one, am very pleased FEC are getting an army book that will make them a competitive choice on the tabletop. They needed a solid new flavor and design scheme apart from the General’s Handbook. The new Ghoul King Model, terrain piece, and endless spells are just gravy on top. I imagine Nagash will get a lot of mileage out of that corpse wall. I love the corpse horses as well. Frankly I’m happy they pushed out this update instead of waiting for years to introduce new models.