Chaos vs Order: who is more advanced?

[Menkeroth]

I hope I don't repeat somebody else's thoughts

But I didn't realize this at once either. Yes, the KO are very advanced, just like when your tribesmen worship gods and fight with clubs, they already took to the outer space. But.

The skaven have done this actually very long time ago! They are your industrial underground nation, with their warp-powered devices, devious contraptions and machine guns mounted on the rat-ogres (genetics!). Is it as well that fantasy as KO? Look at their warlock engineers - claws and backpacks, do they not remind you of something similar? Or look at their stormfiends, jezzails and warp lightning cannons! I think that if your standard fantasy vibe was broken, it was done a long time ago. Even if we talk just of FB, because in other fantasy settings such things could exist even earlier. Like in Spelljammer  

 

Your thoughts, gentlemen?

[Killax]

Id say Order, by larg because of Sigmar and his many constructions to advance against Chaos, such as the Stormcast, Realmgates and overlapping alliances based on trust and not fear.

Chaos has the advantage of magic however and can draw from knowledge of the past.

In essence I think Chaos represents a dark past and Order a bright future. Because of the powers Chaos had a lot of their power did not need to develop further, where Order needed to advance.

[PJetski]

Is there any merit in discussing technological advancement in a world of gods and magic?

KO and Skaven might be space-faring but they'll still be killed by a bunch of angry trees

[KnightFire]

4 minutes ago, PJetski said:

Is there any merit in discussing technological advancement in a world of gods and magic?

 

Absolutely, its fun to discuss!

[BaldoBeardo]

If you're talking technology, Order.
KO are pure engineering and mechanical technology.

For all their advancements, Skaven tend to use warpstone as a bit of a magical fudge to get things moving.
Magically powered technology, but magic just the same.

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[Sleboda]

Funny you should post this.  My GF and I are doing a team tournament army themed around the idea of a frenemy competition between duardin and skaven. 

Our display board is crazy as heck!

We'll see which is more advanced by which half of the team pulls more weight at the event. ?

[FERRUMITE]

Can't forget about the chaos dwarfs! Those guys are extremely advanced by Chaos standards. In the old world, one of em engineered a mechanical kraken monster in the game Dreadfleet. I'd say they are one of the most advanced in the game but KO have probably got them beat now 

[Kramer]

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

For all their advancements, Skaven tend to use warpstone as a bit of a magical fudge to get things moving.
Magically powered technology, but magic just the same.

Ooooh thats an interesting thought. Then I would ask you this.

1. does using a magical substance as a power source automatically disqualifies it as (advanced) scientific technology? (If your answer is yes continue to question two  )

2. If that's the case. Do you consider the discription of Aether-gold as magical? A metal lighter than air, influencing the weather, etc?

3. And lastly my stand: As I personally believe harnessing a power source to move mechanical parts equals scientific/technology. So I would say Skaven in the olden world (they semi-harnessed a power source no other race managed to harness) but in this age it's the Kahadron Overlords as they harnessed a power source nobody else manages to harness). Do you agree?

 

[Guest]

Seraphon have actual spaceships. So, Order it is.

[BaldoBeardo]

Aethergold is simply a fuel for the KO (haven't read all the background tho so may have missed something).
I don't know if it's properties are a result of magic, or if it is a source of magic, but it's collection and use is strictly in the realms of the technological.
Warpstone is literally magic.
Even when used as a power source, Warpstone is producing/providing/channeling magic. If you had an ersatz Warpstone that had *identical* physical properties but was magically inert, Skaven tech wouldn't work with it.

Aethergold may have weird physical properties as a result of magic, but to my understanding it is not intrinsically magical itself.

Weird line to draw given what else is going in the realms I know, and I haven't read the KO 'tome.


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[Sleboda]

Magic. Science. Same thing.

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, Killax said:

Id say Order, by larg because of Sigmar and his many constructions to advance against Chaos, such as the Stormcast, Realmgates and overlapping alliances based on trust and not fear.

And don't forget the Ironweld Arsenal, who by fluff has even war trains (I'm excited at the thought we could see them in the future!)

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

Is there any merit in discussing technological advancement in a world of gods and magic?

There certainly is. After all, we also have a strong religious presence on Earth and primordial tribes who still live in the Stone Age, so...

 

1 hour ago, PJetski said:

KO and Skaven might be space-faring but they'll still be killed by a bunch of angry trees

 that's right! This I call balance after all

1 hour ago, BaldoBeardo said:

KO are pure engineering and mechanical technology.

For all their advancements, Skaven tend to use warpstone as a bit of a magical fudge to get things moving.

I disagree too. Warpstone is, essentially, a crystal. Crystals are used as power means in many settings (Star Wars, for one), so it's no different to the aether-gold which KO believe is the breath of Grungni.

1 hour ago, Sleboda said:

Funny you should post this.  My GF and I are doing a team tournament army themed around the idea of a frenemy competition between duardin and skaven. 

Our display board is crazy as heck!

That's great! Would be interesting to see them  that's really funny considering how similar in fact are skaven and KO societies after all.

55 minutes ago, FERRUMITE said:

Can't forget about the chaos dwarfs! Those guys are extremely advanced by Chaos standards. In the old world, one of em engineered a mechanical kraken monster in the game Dreadfleet. I'd say they are one of the most advanced in the game but KO have probably got them beat now 

Fair point! Kraken submersible is my favorite model from the Dreadfleet, along with the arabic pleasure barge and elven ship. Even though CD don't have even their own fluff entry in the Grand Alliance, they still have their models and they are still highly advanced so let's hope GW won't forget them too.

17 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

Seraphon have actual spaceships. So, Order it is.

true! But they are cheaters

5 minutes ago, Sleboda said:

Magic. Science. Same thing.

essentially yes, as all know this quote by Arthur Clarke, "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

[Killax]

Yeah certainly, there is a lot of tech on the Order side. I also agree with the notion that extremely advanced technology can be seen as magic aswell, though I do think that is a little different in AoS and WFB.

The way I see Magic working in AoS and WFB is through the Magic realms (previously winds), Chaos realm included. Which in my mind are essentially tapping into the energy of that realm and allow you to manipulate the powers of that realm through your bidding. In certain cases this 'magic' isn't even exclusive to Wizards either as Priests can also draw from these energies, in a different way.
When I then would reflect that concept to AoS I also think that Order has the technology to keep this energy contained or perhaps better put, orderly. By comparison Chaos and Destruction let out that same energy unfiltered, often at the eventual demise or mutation of themselves (which for lack of better terms means that their own bodies cannot cope with these raw energies all to well either). Then there is Death, manipulating a raw energy with extreme knowledge, in the form of Nagash.

Then again... That would just be my concept and to me it's more or less how AoS blends technology with Magic. So far the extreme raw and unreliable energies are less found in Order I feel. By comparison Order also has the most ranged weapons and to some extend ranged weapons are social typical to technological advancements. In addition we could also even compair some Priests.
The Lord-Relictor has a prayer that can heal and if it fails, nothing really happens. The Slaughterpriest on the other hand suffers D3 mortal wounds when he rolls a 1 for his prayer. To me it leaves the suggestion that one taps into filtered energy while the other doesn't, with all possible hazards included.

[Menkeroth]

23 minutes ago, Killax said:

Yeah certainly, there is a lot of tech on the Order side. I also agree with the notion that extremely advanced technology can be seen as magic aswell, though I do think that is a little different in AoS and WFB.

Very interesting theory! I think somewhat similar too because essentially magic and technology do one and the same thing - manipulate the world, just with different instruments. And yes, you are right about filters - mostly it's Chaos and Destruction who can use more powerful spells but often appear on the receiving end of their works, like orc shamans or skaven warlock engineers.

25 minutes ago, xking said:

If magic can go beyond the natural laws of our universe then it is not Science.

Just because we call it so? We don't know what laws the universe has or how nature works, all we have is what we think it is because we want to think so. And anyway, there are still tribes on Earth who are so unadvanced they think our technology is magic and work of gods, and are they really that far from the truth?

28 minutes ago, xking said:

Science is a group of disciplines for trying to understand and learn about our universe.

No. Science is our tool to manipulate the world for our own ends. We imagine the universe works this way but in fact we don't and can't know if this is true, we just believe it because we want to. What we now call science was magic for our ancestors.

[Kramer]

28 minutes ago, xking said:

natural laws of our universe

But it's a fictional universe, not our universe. So what then defines natural laws to you? Are the decaying and raw effects of warpstone natural like the halflife and energy of uranium? 

[Sleboda]

56 minutes ago, xking said:

If magic can go beyond the natural laws of our universe then it is not Science. Science is a group of disciplines for trying to understand and learn about our universe.

As history has shown, our understanding of those laws changes. Things that once appeared to break them just were not properly understood.

Magic, spirits, souls, luck, gods, fate ... none of it really exists as we currently think. It's all just stuff we haven't workef out ... yet.

[Zeratan]

First of all depending on how one thinks of warpstone and aether gold the most advanced technology of the realms (we really need a short name that isn't bound to Forgotten Realms) is magitek. However I would argue that even in such a case the question doesn't become irrelevant, it only shifts to include studies of arcane. That opens the discussion to forces like Bonesplitterz who've managed to successfully tap into a great source of power and control it. How different it is from aether gold fueled crafts of KO?

[Menkeroth]

1 hour ago, Zeratan said:

That opens the discussion to forces like Bonesplitterz who've managed to successfully tap into a great source of power and control it. How different it is from aether gold fueled crafts of KO?

Seconding on that. In a magical setting, and especially in a very magical one magic is what runs it, so any technology will be like it even if it seems like not sorcery and more like our science. 

[Guest]

There are some very pseudoscientific descriptions of science being thrown around here! Science is a methodical process of understanding, measuring and modelling the world around us. Technology is a byproduct of that process. Anything that can be measured is theoretically within the realm of scientific understanding. Anything that can't be measured (e.g. phenomena for which there is no material evidence, like gods, the soul, etc) is outside the scope of scientific endeavour. Until material evidence presents itself, the logical scientific default position is to assume that these things don't exist.

In the Mortal Realms there is clear material evidence for gods, souls and many other phenomena for which there is no evidence in our universe. Because science is a process, it is just as applicable in the AoS setting as it is in our world - it's just that the phenomena you're measuring and modelling are different. The technological byproducts will therefore also be different. In both worlds 'magic' is just a generic term to describe phenomena that are not yet scientifically understood. In our world, the concept of magic has essentially died out because our science is now able to describe and rationalise the vast majority of the phenomena that we encounter as we go about our lives.

The 'magic' in the Mortal Realms is theoretically subject to the same scientific scrutiny as gravity or evolution - it's just that no comparable scientific method is widely used there, so the generic catch-all term 'magic' is still used. 'Magic', in any context, essentially means 'we don't understand how this works'.

The lore seems to be suggesting that the fantastical technology used by the Kharadron is 'science' while the abilities of a Chaos Sorcerer are 'magic'. Actually they're both taking advantage of natural, measurable physical properties of the universe they inhabit. The only difference is that the Kharadron have made use of the scientific method to understand why and how these phenomena work, whereas the Chaos Sorcerer hasn't. Because the Kharadron understand why and how, they are able to take advantage of these phenomena to a much finer degree - and the technological byproducts of their scientific endeavours are much more advanced than the Chaos Sorcerer's as a result. If Chaos in AoS applied the scientific method to understanding Chaos 'magic' in the same way that the Kharadron do, who knows what technology they might develop.

[Kanamorf]

I love this comparison between technology and magic... Its all perspective

[Menkeroth]

36 minutes ago, Jamie the Jasper said:

The lore seems to be suggesting that the fantastical technology used by the Kharadron is 'science' while the abilities of a Chaos Sorcerer are 'magic'. Actually they're both taking advantage of natural, measurable physical properties of the universe they inhabit. The only difference is that the Kharadron have made use of the scientific method to understand why and how these phenomena work, whereas the Chaos Sorcerer hasn't. Because the Kharadron understand why and how, they are able to take advantage of these phenomena to a much finer degree - and the technological byproducts of their scientific endeavours are much more advanced than the Chaos Sorcerer's as a result. If Chaos in AoS applied the scientific method to understanding Chaos 'magic' in the same way that the Kharadron do, who knows what technology they might develop.

Exactly. What's more, it's stated in the KO book that if to them the aether-gold is just a natural scientific phenomenon, for others it's just magic. Therefore if KO try to understand it, others, if they even are aware of it, don't and just count it as one of the magical properties of the realms.

[Zeratan]

That makes me wonder what take aelfs and especially Teclis have on the subject. Afterall they now the arcane better than anyone else (except for slaan but then we know little about them).

[Menkeroth]

A good question indeed. It's essentially manipulating the environment, and I think GW has greatly described that in 40k where all eldar are able to manipulate the surroundings with their powerful minds, even see the future, so what somebody achieves with mechanics, others do with spells. A mage will conjure a ball of air to take to the depths, but an engineer will construct a submersible. The result is the same and for anyone who doesn't know how it works it all will be magic.