Let's chat : Maggotkin of Nurgle

[sal4m4nd3r]

@Killax what's your opinion on this contagion point summoning situation? How do we bring in half sized units? Do you think we will be forced pay the points for all ten but only summon five? 

[Killax]

4 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

@Killax what's your opinion on this contagion point summoning situation? How do we bring in half sized units? Do you think we will be forced pay the points for all ten but only summon five? 

My opinion is that you don't bother with summonning due to several synergies that are on the table and better when on the table since the start. This includes the cycle healing, other cycle effects and basically removes the whole subject from attention because you could have been planting new free trees instead.

The effect of the trees might not seem like much to some on paper, and on paper it isn't. In practice however LoS is blocked, a large ammount of units are speed buffed and with bell GUO your going to run with a force that goes so fast you don't even want to account for summonning on top all administration you've got to do  

But in regards to costs, currently you will probably pay the full ammount for half units and the like. So the summonning only becomes interesting when you've got 14+ points and that only occurs if you have more and more Trees.... So... I'd personally focus on just doing that  

Does that mean you probably want to buy 4 Blight Trees in addition to your army? Yes.

[smucreo]

I honestly wouldn't ever bother about summoning, even when playing Death I only used summoning to slingshot Morghast as soon as possible into key targets. Contagion points are gathered too slow for my taste so I'd just use them for planting trees, since I most definitely won't be grabbing Horticulous to get them. 

@Killax Honestly yeah, Plaguebearer bombs where my first thought too. Throw a Scribener or whatever the name is for the Herald that buffs the bearers in there and you have a nice combo with the Blades. The character sniping was just something that came to mind, I don't know how true it will be but what I meant by that was that I feel Rancid visitations is better on something like the melee oriented GUO with the weapon that can grant +1 to cast, since its build to be in close quarters anyway and the spell complements him better than a ranged support who should be casting the Blades spell or Mystic shield anyways.

[Arkiham]

You keep saying about line of sight being blocked.

 

They're tiny trees, it won't block much at all.

[Chris Tomlin]

Hey guys,

I have posted my review of the book here;

Tomorrow I'll add some opinions on the Warscrolls themselves and also some army lists ideas I've been working on.

Cheers,
Chris

[smucreo]

Thanks! I love reading peoples opinions on new releases. 

[Killax]

18 minutes ago, smucreo said:

I honestly wouldn't ever bother about summoning, even when playing Death I only used summoning to slingshot Morghast as soon as possible into key targets. Contagion points are gathered too slow for my taste so I'd just use them for planting trees, since I most definitely won't be grabbing Horticulous to get them. 

@Killax Honestly yeah, Plaguebearer bombs where my first thought too. Throw a Scribener or whatever the name is for the Herald that buffs the bearers in there and you have a nice combo with the Blades. The character sniping was just something that came to mind, I don't know how true it will be but what I meant by that was that I feel Rancid visitations is better on something like the melee oriented GUO with the weapon that can grant +1 to cast, since its build to be in close quarters anyway and the spell complements him better than a ranged support who should be casting the Blades spell or Mystic shield anyways.

Yeah lots of options are there to pin down heroes. Rotigus is amazing for this too. 

Edit: I think GUO generals are going to be a fantastic choice. With the Witherstave - Enemies within 12" have to re-roll sixes (or more) to hit. Which is hilariously huge on a 130mm base. Gotta love that.

18 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

You keep saying about line of sight being blocked.

 

They're tiny trees, it won't block much at all.

2-3 will block sufficient LoS for characters who you don't want to have sniped. In addition the trees have a 7" area of effect. Mortals have a CTthat is a -2 Morale bubble for enemies within 12". It adds, adds and adds. There is more terrain on the table as just these Trees. Or at least there should be...

[Killax]

3 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

Yes but you can't put them near other terrain, enemy units and have to be within 12"of a hero if I'm reading this right. 

"Summoned units must be set up whole within...blah blah if it is a feculant gnarlmaw it must also (emphasis mine ) be set up more than 1" from terrain ."

So to set up a new tree it's within 12 of a hero or tree, 9" away from all enemy units and 1" away from another terrain peice. 

That's actually rather restrictive towards the middle and end of game

Not within 1", which still is more than close enough. A hero being within 12" is exactly going to be the case if you want to protect a hero. As you place them end of Move phase. With a 4'x6' table it's not going to be very restrictive.

In terms of how restrictive it is in the middle and end of the game completely depends on the game. Give it a try  

[Arkiham]

4 minutes ago, Killax said:

In terms of how restrictive it is in the middle and end of the game completely depends on the game. Give it a try  

True, I just don't want people to buy into the excessive hype gw put onto it on stream about the table an trees being "absolutely awesome " when infact they're slightly more than mediocre and end up disappointed after buying 6 and only being able to effectively use 3

[Killax]

17 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

True, I just don't want people to buy into the excessive hype gw put onto it on stream about the table an trees being "absolutely awesome " when infact they're slightly more than mediocre.

Can't agree with you bud. 

1. They are free for the game, yes they make your army more expensive but they are free for the game.
2. They block LoS to the cheap sorcerers and support heroes you want to thake. Rotbringer Sorcerer comes to mind.
3. They have 3" Mortal wound auras. Yes it's a 4+ yes it's just D3 MW, however over time I know of more than a handful of Heroes and units who can't handle that. 
4. They speed up your force.

Did I mention they are free for the game?  They will not win you the game but since they are yours to place the boardcontrol is in the hands of the Nurgle player. Perhaps it's difficult to envision how good this type of board control can be because it's new to AoS. But in games like Malifaux, also objective based, they are absolutely a dominating factor within the game because of Objectives being a large part of the game. 

Edit: But yeah 3-4 for typical army will be enough. But if you want to go for the Horticulous Battalion you indeed might want 6+.

[FRoper]

I am excited about the trees, as I will have to wait to get some, will probably proxy some individual wildwood trees as them for now. 

[Greasygeek]

32 minutes ago, Killax said:

Perhaps it's difficult to envision how good this type of board control can be because it's new to AoS. 

I can testify to this! I recently finished a game vs Fyreslayers were one of the main reasons I were able to hold him off a weak flank was because I manged to move the hidden changeling in the way thus forcing him to move one of his magmadroth very slowly and guiding him around the table. That control allowed me to avoid that magmadroth until The fourth turn. By then it was to late for it to clear the area. And now they telling me I get to do this for free also using kick ass looking nurgle trees! Sign me up for a small forrest!

[Killax]

1 minute ago, Greasygeek said:

I can testify to this! I recently finished a game vs Fyreslayers were one of the main reasons I were able to hold him off a weak flank was because I manged to move the hidden changeling in the way thus forcing him to move one of his magmadroth very slowly and guiding him around the table. That control allowed me to avoid that magmadroth until The fourth turn. By then it was to late for it to clear the area. And now they telling me I get to do this for free also using kick ass looking nurgle trees! Sign me up for a small forrest!

Exactly. It is a tool that becomes better with experience too. Knowing/good guessing where battles will thake place enforce opponents to be near the Tree, wether they want it or not. This is all in addition to an Nurgle army that seems to spell great things to me. As mentioned in Chris' review of the Battletome, due to Nurgle's Nail Artefact (if you have wounded, roll 2d6, 7 is auto-kill) there is suddenly a scary potential in that bell even if the GUO ends up in melee, which he likely will.

The melee alternative of the GUO general also still seems excellent because the re-roll of hits of 6's or more is nothing to sniff at for some armies (cough, Khorne) who trigger Mortal wounds on hits of 6's or more  All in all it shapes up to be a good army from the start, costly units but a lot of bonusses. They are rather random but not worse because of it. It isn't 9 fate dice but I highly doubt any army will get any Allegiance Abilities like that from now on.

What I think is going to be the case for competitive games is that Nurgle players will go for the Battalion that basically spells 1 Herald, 4 other Plaguebearer units (likely 3/2 Bearers/Drones) with a GUO and whatever pleases you in terms of support and/or other Rotbringers. With this GUO and the Bearer units are basically the flaming tarpits that aim to engulf your opponent thanks to Blight Tree support on top of spell support.
In terms of Command Traits I still don't exactly know what the one does that allows you to fiddle with the wheel but if it allows you to basically pinpoint an effect for next turn it's going to be ace. 

Cheers,

[smucreo]

So is the nail a one time use or can you use it multiple times?

As for the Tallyband Battalion, it does look strong but a bit boring for my taste, it's just building an entire army out of tarpit and blocking the map with it. I'd much rather use skeletons for that (if they were better, of course haha). Thank god the Lord of Blight + Blightkings battalion looks so good, I'm probably going to go that route and figure out how to add a GUO and other stuff to the list later.

[Killax]

14 minutes ago, smucreo said:

So is the nail a one time use or can you use it multiple times?

You mean Horticulous planting a tree? That's a once per game, unless you use the Battalion. Warscrolls are on page 47.

[Greasygeek]

15 minutes ago, Killax said:

You mean Horticulous planting a tree? That's a once per game, unless you use the Battalion. Warscrolls are on page 47.

No I think he was referring to the insta kill thing. 

Not sure why people are so happy about that nail thing. It only kills on a roll of 7. Not 7+. I guess opponents will think twice before charging the nail wielder but imo its to much depended on luck to base strategy on and a waste of an artifact choice. Or don’t I get the bigger picture?

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Greasygeek said:

No I think he was referring to the insta kill thing. 

Not sure why people are so happy about that nail thing. It only kills on a roll of 7. Not 7+. I guess opponents will think twice before charging the nail wielder but imo its to much depended on luck to base strategy on and a waste of an artifact choice. Or don’t I get the bigger picture?

It's a fluff choice 

[Uveron]

1 hour ago, Greasygeek said:

No I think he was referring to the insta kill thing. 

Not sure why people are so happy about that nail thing. It only kills on a roll of 7. Not 7+. I guess opponents will think twice before charging the nail wielder but imo its to much depended on luck to base strategy on and a waste of an artifact choice. Or don’t I get the bigger picture?

7 is the most likely number rolled on 2d6. So its not a bad mechanic 

[Yeled]

30 minutes ago, Uveron said:

7 is the most likely number rolled on 2d6. So its not a bad mechanic 

It's a one in six chance. Quite low, and not worth taking, imo. The only thing about it that is reliable is it fails almost every time. It's not much of a deterrent to an opponent. I'd certainly not be afraid of it.

[sal4m4nd3r]

28 minutes ago, Yeled said:

It's a one in six chance. Quite low, and not worth taking, imo. The only thing about it that is reliable is it fails almost every time. It's not much of a deterrent to an opponent. I'd certainly not be afraid of it.

Say that and then watch someone's skarbrand or Nagash or something go down from it ?

[Yeled]

46 minutes ago, sal4m4nd3r said:

Say that and then watch someone's skarbrand or Nagash or something go down from it ?

Well, I'm sure it will happen. But it's too situational and too rare to be worthwhile actually attempting.

[Hightime]

As someone who also plays 40k Death Guard. Im still waiting on my Tallyman to refund me some command points on a 7.

Statistically yea sure most likely number, but realistically ive yet to see it happen.

[smucreo]

9 hours ago, Killax said:

You mean Horticulous planting a tree? That's a once per game, unless you use the Battalion. Warscrolls are on page 47.

No, I meant the nail artifact Chris talked about in his review! It wasn't that clear there. I say it because relying on rolling exactly a 7 is hard enough, but if it is a one time use like the eye of nurgle i can't see it ever being anything else than garbage. I asked because you talked about it on a GUO w/ a bell.

[Peegee]

No infos on Nurglings ? Do they get a save ? A deep strike mechanic ?

[Killax]

2 hours ago, smucreo said:

No, I meant the nail artifact Chris talked about in his review! It wasn't that clear there. I say it because relying on rolling exactly a 7 is hard enough, but if it is a one time use like the eye of nurgle i can't see it ever being anything else than garbage. I asked because you talked about it on a GUO w/ a bell.

Yeah for whatever reason I read snail instead of nail yesterday. Only shows I shouldn't hang around too much on the forums after work  
For me the nail indeed is just a fluffy choice. Having said that, it can act as a good possible deterrent. The thing is that it's really difficult to instakill a Great Unclean One now so enemy monsters who attempt it do run the risk of failing and being removed themselves.

In all seriousness I too think the 12" bubble is the better choice, I believed I mentioned that before but that's really neither here not there. What makes the opponents are forced to re-roll hits of 6's so good is with my Khorne bias in mind. It can ****** with a lot of rolls and that's what I like about it. But in the end it really depends on what you want to do with the GUO still. The bell is fantastic support, the sword is fantastic offense. If you have enough movement support through Cycle and Trees the bell is still amazing but not always needed. I feel that Nurgle plays this attrition game well enough to not have to be there in melee combat turn 1. This requirement even is lower when you include double Plagueclaws or Rotigus which force most armies out anyway. Though indeed if you skip on those choices the Bell can become a better choice.

To awnser the question though, it seems that it works on every wound not just 1. It reminds me of how the Mighty Lord of Khorne can remove units. I agree that it's not extremely reliable but on the other hand it's there for a GUO and a GUO is really hard to remove. As before, Nurgle does a lot that isn't seen on the Warscrolls so I think it's really important to consider all small pieces functioning in harmony.

GUO for example will:
1. Cast Arcane Shield upon himself if you want to.
2. Snipe upon targets that want to bring it down.
3a. Can have an additional wound through Command Trait.
3b. Can manipulate the Cycle of Decay through Command Trait, which will lead to better healing/sniping/more movement, the choice is really yours.
3c. Can Pestilent Breath so fills in a Blightking function to deal with hordes while Plaguebearers spam Mortal wounds with Command Trait and Spell support.
4. Improves Magic, Support or Offense through Artefacts. 

So all in all I think the GUO is fantastic but for competitive reasons you will indeed likely have to choose between a great support or great offense GUO and both is very hard to create on a single GUO but obviously this only shows some consideration for balance  

In general I think there is only one gripe to have with Nurgle and that's it's A LOT of book keeping for the army. Like, perhaps too much. Things to consider every turn are:

1. Keep track of the Cycle of Decay and manipulation. 
2. Keep track of D3 Contagion points, these rolls thake time, these Tree measurements you have to make continiously thake time.
3. Consider what to do with those points, thakes up time too. (I think your helping yourself and your opponent when you just focus on the Blight Trees but I know some want to use it to summon units)
4. Check all Blight Trees for their different effect bubbles.
5. All different bubble interactions within Nurgle Daemons, from GUO to Heralds to all types of units.
6. When you run Epidemius or other characters who run tallies you have to keep track of that too.

And well... That's a lot of stuff YOU have to do while your opponents have to wait for it. Let alone how much steps of these are easy to forget/skip upon because you want to well... eventually finish the game  
 

20 minutes ago, Peegee said:

No infos on Nurglings ? Do they get a save ? A deep strike mechanic ?

Unchanged I believe. They arn't very difficult to summon in trio with Contagion Points but other than that I believe you wont use them as much in AoS as you will in 40K.