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The aesthetic of Undead in AOS discussion


shinros

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I always wanted to discuss this because with the release of AOS and the newer units from end times people have said they look more TK than VC. Now I just want a discussion where we can share our opinions on this subject. 

Now in my opinion I disagree with this notion I think what GW are going for is a mix of both VC(a bit more on the VC side IMO) and TK themes for the undead with AOS with heavy gothic cue's. 

Now this is from the new white dwarf the very first one when they were interviewing the designer of nagash and the mortarch's. 

In a sense yes I am going to pull this post from the adepticon thread. The interview with the designer of nagash and the mortarch's mannfred, neferata and arkhan. It's pretty clear they were for AOS the interview pretty much spells that out in the first new version of white dwarf. 

"The design of nagash's staff alkanash, harks back to his past as a high priest of khemri, with motifs from both the tomb kings and vampire counts used in the final design"

"Nagash is a landmark minature for several reasons. He enabled us, as a design team, to re-imagine the undead range and create a new aesthetic for undead characters such as Arkhan and neferata." 

Another part 

"Being able to create nagash enabled us to redefine the undead range, to establish a new ruling class with a grim aesthetic.

Even mannfred carries these cue's even if they did not change his model much his gear is very baroque in the undead sort of way and with his mount which has gothic and TK influences. 

If you look at all the art we have seen of shyish. You will see the same influence is there looking at the trailer and music I have to say death is a lot "darker" and grim than TK, The TK were very bright and very clearly just skeletons wearing clearly Egyptian ornaments. While what we are seeing in Death in AOS to me GW seems to be taking the main themes from VC and adding splashes of TK to give it's own feel. IMO.  

As you see in the images you still see the classic gothic bats and building style of the VC but you can see the TK influences there.

 

 

age+of+sigmar+artwork+flesheaters+courts

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Now the trailer they used the art with. Listen to the music sounds pretty gothic right? In my opinion it does and so does the images but then you see some of the TK influences I hope GW pushes this. Of course posting it for people who have not seen the trailer. 

Now with the promotional image of shadespire

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I could easily see this as a sort of TK mask of sorts of course you can see TK influences in the mask BUT it looks extremely gothic and you got the nagash crown on it. Also he kinda clearly looks dead and less well.... clearly Egyptian. As the designer said going by the trailer and art we have seen of shyish it looks a lot more "grim".

I could easily see GW releasing a new liche priest and instead of looking like the old TK range they will look more like nagash or Arkhan I can even see them wearing a mask similar to the picture.  

I want to hear people's thoughts on this because looking over the art of previous books and the art and style of warhammer underworlds I am quit excited with what GW will do with undead. 

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I would agree with you 100% on the TK combined with VC and gothic.

Which is why i think we will see an extension to the deathlords faction burrowing from the aesthtic of things like the morghasts which when i first swa them gave me a very "high fantasy" vibe even back in WHFB. also looking at the above artwork you can also see the clear High fantasy look. In the oldworld the undead lived in gothic style castles and while spooky with gargoyles and other Sylvania motifs but inhenrtly still "Realistic buildings" that have been usurped for a darker purpose. whic is the same impression you got off the undead themselves.

Ramshackles and tatty units with weapons and armor that harken from many aesthetics from the history of the old world.

The new building however have that "High fantasy pupose build death" vibe. This fortress was built for a lord of death. it has always been owned by death and it will always be a place of death with the obvious bones bones and more bones look. I would say that the deathlords model fit in with this quite well and even though the Morghasts are given a Nehekaran back story (Guardians of the underworld etc) they are very custom made for the job.

This is why i can see death having a core of horde units like zombies and skelies (The latter of which i think will get a new aesthetic but with the same general skeleton model) and then a extended deathlords faction (Just like ironjaws and arcanites etc) with  . . . . . well anything.and thats the point.

I think they will be very unique high fansty bone and spirit contructs (Perhaps some heavly armored wight king like models as new battle line) I also would expect the black pyramid hint to appear as a new behemoth centre piece in a similar scale to the necron obelisks.

Lots of traditional things like liches and wraiths but clad in a more baroque gothic look.

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Yeah I can see them doing new zombies with some of the new influencespeople have been asking for new ones for ages. Skeletons I think will stay the same they already "fit". 

As you said we will most likely see new liche priests made in a similar style.

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16 minutes ago, shinros said:

Yeah I can see them doing new zombies with some of the new influencespeople have been asking for new ones for ages. Skeletons I think will stay the same they already "fit". 

As you said we will most likely see new liche priests made in a similar style.

In my head i kind of have a mix of "lesser" Arkhans and something like the Liches from WOW. aka skeleies in armor plates with ghosty bits

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7 hours ago, KHHaunts said:

In my head i kind of have a mix of "lesser" Arkhans and something like the Liches from WOW. aka skeleies in armor plates with ghosty bits

Yup imagine liche priests in more baroque gothic armor with splashes of TK influence like the mask in the warhammer underworlds picture? Plus it would give something for necromancers to aspire to instead of vampirism. 

Hell you can already make your wight king a wizard via a magical item pushing those themes more would be pretty cool. 

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Much as I quite like the ornate, VC + TK aesthetic of the ET releases and would be excited to see more stuff in the same style (or any undead really)... I actually think what Death needs most is a more diverse range of aesthetics. Give it different factions with their own visual identities and make it feel like a true Grand Alliance rather than an alliance of one! 

Of course you'd absolutely bring the Deathlords look forward and expand upon it - but add others to complement it as well. So you might have the gothic VC undead, the savage flesh eaters, the bright Egyptian TK (strictly a hypothetical example xD), perhaps a more fluid, organic atlantis style undead... all of which would give Death a diversity it's currently lacking. AoS has given GW a change to come up with anything they can imagine - I'd like to see them push the boundaries in every direction they can, much like how Order has the very natural Sylvaneth alongside the ridiculously technological Kharadron Overlords. 

But of course then we run into the fact that Death is far more monolithic than the other alliances - should it be a collection of loosely allied groups like Order or should Death be about working as a Grand Alliance rather than trying to make an army of Deathmages? And if so, what does that mean for its aesthetic going forwards? Does that mean we only get one look as opposed to the plethora of Order or Chaos factions? I certainly hope not, but it's a question worth asking. 

At this point its difficult to say what's to come. There's just been too little attention given to Death to even guess which direction GW will take them. Will they get a series of Sylvaneth or Kharadron like battletomes to bring them up to speed, or will they get a massive release alongside a Tzeentch style tome that covers most of the GA? I think a VC + TK look on an expanded Deathlords is probably a given, but how far that will extend throughout Death or what else (if anything) we'll get alongside it is anyone's guess :)

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I personally found the Morghasts + Mortarchs to be some of the coolest looking models, partially why I chose Death.

I generally prefer monsters and elites over troops, but here are some ideas I think would be neat for potential expansion within the Death GA.

  • Werewolves, Werebear. Dire-animals. What about a Diablo 2 style Quill fiend(Spike Fiend) that shoots its spikes out?
  • A human faction that worships Nagash, or generally Death. Sacrifice mechanics please!
  • A Dark Eldar/Skaven style clan of mutations, experiments, frankensteins. 
  • Expanded Deathlords. Basically more 'bone constructs' that Nagash or someone has created. These don't necessarily look like a living creature.
  • A Nighthaunt infused version of Deathrattle. Empty sets of armor with Spirit energy inside, or Skeletons with spirits wrapping around the bones. So you've got a skeletal outline with some spirit muscle! Seems like this would be a neat idea for a singular Spirit-Wight King.
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  • 2 weeks later...

As I said previously I would personally like a blades of khorne/Disciple of tzeentch like tome for Death I do think werewolves would be pretty cool for death or a thrall unit you could use to restore wounds on your vampires or sacrifice them to restore undead units. 

Also death in my opinion is about homogenization and they are more monolithic compared to the other alliances as been said, they are not a loose collection of alliances of different factions. They all obey nagash and the hierarchy is structured as orders trickle down also lore wise they still fight the same like VC. 

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Also death in my opinion is about homogenization and they are more monolithic compared to the other alliances as been said, they are not a loose collection of alliances of different factions. 

Is this really true though? While Nagash is the big centralising dictator. It could be argued that Arkhan is off doing his Deathrattle stuff; Mannderp is trying to derp all by himself for his own motives; and Neferata even has a cool new city and has the female vampire theme going. The deluded hallucinatory FEC also show signs of independence. Granted, they aren't fighting or undermining each other as blatantly as the 4 Chaos Gods (pending the inevitable triumph of Skaven) - Tzeentch undercutting Nurgle in the Ghyran campaign for example.

Meanwhile Krell is perhaps due a comeback, surely his mysterious omission from the General's Handbook (no he isn't in the Compendium) cannot be a coincidence. #KrellBomb

 

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1 hour ago, Nico said:

Is this really true though? While Nagash is the big centralising dictator. It could be argued that Arkhan is off doing his Deathrattle stuff; Mannderp is trying to derp all by himself for his own motives; and Neferata even has a cool new city and has the female vampire theme going. The deluded hallucinatory FEC also show signs of independence. Granted, they aren't fighting or undermining each other as blatantly as the 4 Chaos Gods (pending the inevitable triumph of Skaven) - Tzeentch undercutting Nurgle in the Ghyran campaign for example.

Meanwhile Krell is perhaps due a comeback, surely his mysterious omission from the General's Handbook (no he isn't in the Compendium) cannot be a coincidence. #KrellBomb

 

Pretty much yes, in lord of undeath it seems nagash seems to be very "hands" on along with his Mortarch's on those that harm his "property" his worshipers and servants etc. To be clearer each mortarch has their own motives etc being who they are but they all roughly still fight the same using necromancy. 

Hence why deathlords will be the new/aesthetic style for undead in AOS according to the white dwarf.

The thing is even Neferata does not only have female vampires anymore(She still has handmaidens). In lord of undeath she has a host of Blood knights(Led by Hakdron who looks to be a consort and male), zombies and skeletons and necromancers defending her city and necromancers being a part of her court along with vampires. She has whole tombs full of undead along with zombie dragons. She is no longer a spymaster in the shadows but a Queen of blood and corruption(She is still good at the spymaster business though). Mannfred still uses any and all undead that is available to him even human thralls. 

Mannfred does seem to be in neferata's position in whfb that he no longer exactly has a "Home" anymore since he was fighting chaos for 400+ years. 

Still it's more the fact that if they start going into singular faction books for death then certain models become useless. In context the necromancer's danse spell, they release a deathrattle book suddenly you can't use your necromancer anymore without losing the book bonuses and spells. Then they release a deadwalker book? Same thing again. Nighthaunt? The mortis engine cannot be taken with the army. You then decide to use a necromancer with Arkhan? Suddenly Arkhan has forgotten all his spells you lose your Death rattle bonuses as well. 

Just think about it if you want to use Mannfred and they release a soulblight book, now mannfred and neferata can no longer take zombies or skeletons. Which does not exactly fit since they are necromancers and in all instances we have seen both of them fighting in AOS lore is with a host of various undead along with vampires. 

Also Krell is mentioned in the grand alliance death book. That a "Lord of despair rules the rime-frozen Helspoint, the lord is said to be far older than the age of myth." 

This is just my opinion but having a "Hordes of nagash" style book that mainly uses the death keyword would elegantly solve these problems for death. Just like the extremis chamber for stormcast folded into the new stormcast book. The stormcast book is essentially "three" armies in one. 

Since in reality they actually work together far better than chaos in a more believable fashion since many of the generals are necromancers since most of the death army has no free will since they are animated save flesh eater courts and vampires. Also they are the extreme end of order.

Honestly GW could go a complete different route, but I think it's likely they are going to do a similar tome to chaos along with new models that fit the deathlords theme like they did with disciples of tzeentch. Still at the end of the day this is all speculation the next general handbook should shed some light on this if they don't do a death release by then. 

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Right I got the balance of power book recently here is what I mean. This is from neferata's story section from balance of power. If you read the novel version of this story part of the story is Nagash getting the mortarch's under his thumb again. I am just going to say I really dig the art of the Mortarch's they look great!

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As of the most recent reveals/retcons (spoilers!)

Spoiler

 

Mannfred is not, nor has he ever as far as we know in the post-old-world narrative, been acting on his own.  Everything he's done has been under Nagash's direction.

Nagash is working on a big plan, something that takes most of his resources so he doesn't want to commit to the war just yet.  As such, he's playing like he's waffling, like he might pick chaos or order at any minute and dedicate all his resources to that side tipping the scale.  Neferata is playing the role as 'adviser pulling for Nagash to join Order'.  Her stormcast contacts like her, and believe she may genuinely convince Nagash to re-join Sigmar's alliance.  Mannfred is playing the same role for Chaos.  When Nagash fails to live up to commitments to order, the forces of order can blame Mannfred's influence instead of giving up on Nagash altogether.  Likewise with Chaos and Neferata.  As long as both sides think he might join either, they can't afford to attack him, or they risk pushing him into their enemy's camp.

As long as that continues, Nagash is free to devote his resources to building his new Black Pyramid and soul-shardy-things-that-i-don't-think-have-a-real-name-yet, which which he will be able to re-assert his control over the dead.  All the dead.  When stormcasts die, he'll be able to draw their souls to the pyramid and trap them in the shards instead of them returning to Sigmar to be reborn.  Same with the champions of chaos, no more will the chaos gods be able to recycle their followers over and over.  By the time either side knows what's going on, Nagash's armies will become so bloated with the dead of both sides that neither will be able to stop him.

Or, at least, that's the plan.  In practice, the skaven will probably just nuke the pyramid again.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Sception said:

As of the most recent reveals/retcons (spoilers!)

  Hide contents

 

Mannfred is not, nor has he ever as far as we know in the post-old-world narrative, been acting on his own.  Everything he's done has been under Nagash's direction.

Nagash is working on a big plan, something that takes most of his resources so he doesn't want to commit to the war just yet.  As such, he's playing like he's waffling, like he might pick chaos or order at any minute and dedicate all his resources to that side tipping the scale.  Neferata is playing the role as 'adviser pulling for Nagash to join Order'.  Her stormcast contacts like her, and believe she may genuinely convince Nagash to re-join Sigmar's alliance.  Mannfred is playing the same role for Chaos.  When Nagash fails to live up to commitments to order, the forces of order can blame Mannfred's influence instead of giving up on Nagash altogether.  Likewise with Chaos and Neferata.  As long as both sides think he might join either, they can't afford to attack him, or they risk pushing him into their enemy's camp.

As long as that continues, Nagash is free to devote his resources to building his new Black Pyramid and soul-shardy-things-that-i-don't-think-have-a-real-name-yet, which which he will be able to re-assert his control over the dead.  All the dead.  When stormcasts die, he'll be able to draw their souls to the pyramid and trap them in the shards instead of them returning to Sigmar to be reborn.  Same with the champions of chaos, no more will the chaos gods be able to recycle their followers over and over.  By the time either side knows what's going on, Nagash's armies will become so bloated with the dead of both sides that neither will be able to stop him.

Or, at least, that's the plan.  In practice, the skaven will probably just nuke the pyramid again.

 

 

On chaos

 

Actually Mannfred wants nagash to fight both chaos and sigmar. Nagash has no intentions of siding with chaos, the bald vampire has been fighting chaos the most for centuries. Everything else is on point he is using the stalemate to gather power and souls as you said for him to come out on top. Cause of neferata's antics sigmar will not move against nagash overtly unless he actually does something. From the end it seems that Mannfred and Arkhan knew what was going on. Still I think mannfred revealing that sigmar stealing even nagash's own worshipers well... you don't mess with nagash's property. Everything is on point in that great post *thumbs up* I love the lord of undeath novel. 

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As of the most recent reveals/retcons (spoilers!)

Very good. Amusing too - love the last line.

Spoiler

Has Nagash not seen the Star Wars films! Doesn't he know that building yet another Death Star/Black Pyramid is only going to end one way.

 

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Just now, Nico said:

Very good. Amusing too - love the last line.

  Hide contents

Has Nagash not seen the Star Wars films! Doesn't he know that building yet another Death Star/Black Pyramid is only going to end one way.

 

Fun fact they do reveal in the novel that nagash has

An eternal grudge against skaven for past slights so he has not forgotten either.

:D 

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I am loving this thread...

 

42 minutes ago, shinros said:

Hence why deathlords will be the new/aesthetic style for undead in AOS according to the white dwarf.

This is just my opinion but having a "Hordes of nagash" style book that mainly uses the death keyword would elegantly solve these problems for death. Just like the extremis chamber for stormcast folded into the new stormcast book. The stormcast book is essentially "three" armies in one. 

Honestly GW could go a complete different route, but I think it's likely they are going to do a similar tome to chaos along with new models that fit the deathlords theme like they did with disciples of tzeentch. Still at the end of the day this is all speculation the next general handbook should shed some light on this if they don't do a death release by then. 

 

I am with you on that one, I think that this is what Death needs the most - a book that binds all death factions in a coherent way. As often mentioned, Death is more of a single faction than an alliance. FEC does have its own identity, but I see the Deathmages/deathrattle/Nighthaunt more in the same light as Mortals/Arcanites/Daemons for Tzeentch as opposed to completely different armies.

 

In regards to aesthetics, I love the look of the Deathlords - something that is truly GW's own.

I am highly confident that, in due time, GW will release a set of new models alongside a new battletome.

Yes, I would like to see more diversity in the Alliance; being realistic, I would think that it would be easier for GW to expand on the Deathlord faction and wrap a great story around it than go with a whole new different faction. Having said that, GW did go down that route with the Overlords - one quite original and distinct Duardin faction... 

 

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4 minutes ago, Veillotron said:

I am loving this thread...

 

 

I am with you on that one, I think that this is what Death needs the most - a book that binds all death factions in a coherent way. As often mentioned, Death is more of a single faction than an alliance. FEC does have its own identity, but I see the Deathmages/deathrattle/Nighthaunt more in the same light as Mortals/Arcanites/Daemons for Tzeentch as opposed to completely different armies.

 

In regards to aesthetics, I love the look of the Deathlords - something that is truly GW's own.

I am highly confident that, in due time, GW will release a set of new models alongside a new battletome.

Yes, I would like to see more diversity in the Alliance; being realistic, I would think that it would be easier for GW to expand on the Deathlord faction and wrap a great story around it than go with a whole new different faction. Having said that, GW did go down that route with the Overlords - one quite original and distinct Duardin faction... 

 

Yeah gameplay wise to me that just seems the path of less headache to be honest and lore wise they still fight the same way. Oh yeah I also want to drop that in that section detailing neferata's story there are NO ZOMBIES, you see stuff from other factions but no zombies what's so ever. *begins praying to GW that they heard our feedback for new zombies*

Omg new zombies in the AOS aesthetic would be a dream come true. 

I do think we will see more unique faction releases in order and destruction(with some mixed battalions for destruction) since they are more loosely allies and fit a lot better with those sorts of releases. Like Kharadron, fyreslayers, seraphon etc. 

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New zombies would indeed be a welcome addition - especially if they dress them up in Deathlord armour/apparel...

We might be saying the same thing, but just to be clear re the Overlords: I was expecting GW to integrate them more with other Duardin units, and release a Duardin Battletome (including the Overlords) as opposed to a pure Overlord faction.

I guess that there was enough Narrative and new models to warrant a single book, but with the new Stormcast/DoT/BoK books, the approach has been more to regroup similar factions, making them mini-alliances. It would have made a lot of sense from a business standpoint - have people buy in addition to the Overlords additional Duardin models (fyreslayers, etc.) to field a complete duardin army

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5 minutes ago, Veillotron said:

New zombies would indeed be a welcome addition - especially if they dress them up in Deathlord armour/apparel...

We might be saying the same thing, but just to be clear re the Overlords: I was expecting GW to integrate them more with other Duardin units, and release a Duardin Battletome (including the Overlords) as opposed to a pure Overlord faction.

I guess that there was enough Narrative and new models to warrant a single book, but with the new Stormcast/DoT/BoK books, the approach has been more to regroup similar factions, making them mini-alliances. It would have made a lot of sense from a business standpoint - have people buy in addition to the Overlords additional Duardin models (fyreslayers, etc.) to field a complete duardin army

Who knows Kharadron might have a battalion that has fyreslayers models in it if I recall there was a part of the lore where they stated that in one of their cities, fyreslayers have set up a lodge there. Well that's what I would do if I wanted to cross sale. 

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Thats the problem I see with death, basically. That its a Alliance build on a single faction. To me, homogeneization, bot in faction rules, Lore and aesthetic will make it a pretty boring (In the sense that it was just only 1-2 flavours) Alliance.

 

I think GW should look to expand his tropes and themes, not make it smaller.

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