Arkiham Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 So I put the question forward on stream is it really fair for units such as the unforged to gain bonuses against chaos for free, and vise versa with some chaos units against order. (I don't know the ones ) I'll attach a couple of example units profile for ease for viewing. Now, saying that you pay for this bonus isn't really true as it's the same cost if you take it against death, destruction or order. So when taking this unit should the point cost change when taking it against the army you get a bonus for, or should the bonus be nullified? It's hard to claim that it's fair when it's a significant bonus to the units strength for literally zero cost. At least that's my view on it, I'd like to hear other people's views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broxus Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 haha, might want to change the title of this thread to FACTION Specific Bonuses. Yes this is very silly for matched play and dramatically throws of balance of some games. These types of rules should be removed completely /or make them optional rules for narrative play. When units gain a 50% damage bonus I don't know how you can effectively point this. You should post this in feedback for the GHB2. They should add a rule that any faction specific damage rules are ignored in matched play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 Ha, dam autocorrect. Too late now I'll just have to look a fool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squirrelmaster Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 There will always be good and bad matchups, though. Rend is useless against nighthaunt (but mortal wounds are really good against them). Improved saves vs shooting are virtually useless vs death. Sometimes your de-buff will have a particularly strong effect against some special rule or buff that your opponent uses (negative modifiers to hit vs stuff that triggers on a 6+ to hit, for example). It feels "off" because these rules call out a specific faction keyword, but at the end of the day it's pretty much the same thing. Plus, while a lot of Order stuff gets bonuses against Chaos, a lot of Chaos stuff gets bonuses against Order, so to an extent it balances out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 4, 2017 Author Share Posted January 4, 2017 5 minutes ago, Squirrelmaster said: Plus, while a lot of Order stuff gets bonuses against Chaos, a lot of Chaos stuff gets bonuses against Order, so to an extent it balances out. the point is, you're not paying for those (sometimes significant) bonuses. the unit costs the same against the fraction it gains a bonus against as it does the ones it does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Meads Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Nah - adds some flavour. Always been race specifc bonuses, hatred being the one that springs to mind. Don't see a problem with this at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Choombatta Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 Does anyone ever use those bonuses against the other factions though? What is the point of taking +1 to hit models with the ORDER keyword, if you are playing against Death? If you are using the random method, then you are taking the chance of gaining a bonus that is useless in your current battle, which is a form of cost in and of itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Wilson Posted January 4, 2017 Share Posted January 4, 2017 When you build a well rounded list part of the thought process is consideration of what you might face, and this is a large basis for whether you might take such a unit. i honestly don't have, and haven't heard of problems with this. My only critiscism if that they're mostly geared towards chaos which is a bit dull. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broxus Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Marc Wilson said: When you build a well rounded list part of the thought process is consideration of what you might face, and this is a large basis for whether you might take such a unit. i honestly don't have, and haven't heard of problems with this. My only critiscism if that they're mostly geared towards chaos which is a bit dull. Exactly all the bonuses are very one sided and only against Chaos. You don't see any lists that have bonuses against death or destruction for example. It really just destroys points balance. The worst offender is Seraphon and Stormcast who if you are play Chaos Daemon are just stupid to play against. Many times units from these lists get a free 50-100% damage increase against daemons for zero cost. These bonuses should be left as optional or only used in matched play where you are doing a narrative event. Otherwise these massive free bonuses just break balanced tournament matched play. Recently they added the GHB chaos bonuses against Order. I would like to see these removed in the matched play for the exact same reason above. You should never be made to almost autolose just because you play a certain list. There is not any strategy or tactics involved in these rules which makes them random chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russellbogentoff Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Josh Meads said: Nah - adds some flavour. Always been race specifc bonuses, hatred being the one that springs to mind. Don't see a problem with this at all. This is how I feel about it personally. If it unbalances things in tournaments, then the TOs can address it in that instance. I like the added in-game fluff, and will sometimes run certain units like witch hunters purely for that reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Adds flavor and makes sense in the overall story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 8 hours ago, Arkiham said: So when taking this unit should the point cost change when taking it against the army you get a bonus for, or should the bonus be nullified? It's hard to claim that it's fair when it's a significant bonus to the units strength for literally zero cost. By the same logic, should Bonesplitta units cost more when the enemy force has monsters in it since they have conditional bonuses against monsters? This seems like the same type of approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 7 minutes ago, Thomas Lyons said: By the same logic, should Bonesplitta units cost more when the enemy force has monsters in it since they have conditional bonuses against monsters? This seems like the same type of approach. But the bonus is universal against all monster all fractions, which you're paying for in the points. The bonuses I'm talking about aren't, the model costs the same but against chaos the unforged does 100% more damage for free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwface Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'd be interested to know if there's a general difference of opinion here between new players, and people who used to play WFB. I don't have a problem with faction-specific bonuses because they've simply always been a thing as long as I've been playing, and as was mentioned, to me they add character and fluff to a unit. You say they get this bonus for free, but how do you know it hasn't been calculated into their overall cost? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fartsocks Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I preferred the old Dragon Slayer rules where he did double damage against monsters (rather than chaos). That makes more sense as the lore says they fight harder against big guys. And it's more balanced because all factions have monsters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramer Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 11 hours ago, Arkiham said: It's hard to claim that it's fair when it's a significant bonus to the units strength for literally zero cost. Matched play is never going to be fair. Points are never going to be balanced and some units will always be auto includes. I'm not trying to be pessimistic but if you expect GW to get everything fair you will be very frustrated. So I don't mind the characterful units with rules that only work against specific units and factions. But that's me and I'm not a tournament player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 1 hour ago, Screwface said: I'd be interested to know if there's a general difference of opinion here between new players, and people who used to play WFB. I don't have a problem with faction-specific bonuses because they've simply always been a thing as long as I've been playing, and as was mentioned, to me they add character and fluff to a unit. You say they get this bonus for free, but how do you know it hasn't been calculated into their overall cost? The units for their costs are more than worth it. The slayer is 100 points ? Seems alright without the double damage to chaos units, The bastiladon again seems fair for its cost without the increased damage against chaos daemons, if the bonus was the same against all models the cost would go up for that model, so yeah it's a gamble for the person who takes it, but it's nothing but a loss for the fraction who the bonus is against, the model is good without the bonus against various units. but great against you, regardless what you've taken its stronger against you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Screwface Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I think this is where list building skills will develop over time. When writing an "all comers" list for tournaments, Chaos players will begin to factor in the possibility of facing these armies and do what they can to mitigate in the knowledge that death, taxes and the fact that some match ups will be worse than others are a given in life. When playing friendly games you can house rule it if you really want to. It's worth repeating though that in the sense you're talking about, Warhammer isn't fair and never, ever has been. Think banner of the world dragon (you think Daemons have it bad in AoS?), 1+ armour save Tzeentch Lord with 3+ ward re-rolling 1s, and countless other examples. You just embrace it and deal with it as best you can, but trying to view it in terms of fair/unfair will just give you a headache. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie Grimwood Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 I'd would also depend on how you're playing things. Chaos armies have sellections in their Allegiance abilities which are free and work better against Order units maybe this is a deliberate balancing mechanic? If you're playing that you can choose these at the start of each battle it would go some way to mitigate the problem. Of course whether or not they manage to balance it out is a different discussion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrCharisma Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 14 hours ago, Arkiham said: So when taking this unit should the point cost change when taking it against the army you get a bonus for, or should the bonus be nullified? ...Does that mean that the unit should receive a points discount when not facing Chaos? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arkiham Posted January 5, 2017 Author Share Posted January 5, 2017 2 minutes ago, MrCharisma said: ...Does that mean that the unit should receive a points discount when not facing Chaos? id say the points are more than likely based on their ability in the wider picture, so against all factions/warscrolls rather than based off chaos in specific. so probably not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkumaKaze Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 14 hours ago, Choombatta said: Does anyone ever use those bonuses against the other factions though? What is the point of taking +1 to hit models with the ORDER keyword, if you are playing against Death? If you are using the random method, then you are taking the chance of gaining a bonus that is useless in your current battle, which is a form of cost in and of itself. I look at it like this: 1: Is the unit good enough on its own without the bonus to do what you would like it to do? (be tough chaff, murder things, be highly mobile for objective grabbing). 2: Can a force synergy give it a "generic" version of the bonus that is not targeting a specific faction? 3: If you almost never fight the army that the specific bonus is against do you feel that the model is weaker than it should be? 4: Did you paint it? (Okay this one is optional but if we are talking tournaments then I want to see effort in this department from my opponents). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chord Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 5 hours ago, Screwface said: I'd be interested to know if there's a general difference of opinion here between new players, and people who used to play WFB. I don't have a problem with faction-specific bonuses because they've simply always been a thing as long as I've been playing, and as was mentioned, to me they add character and fluff to a unit. You say they get this bonus for free, but how do you know it hasn't been calculated into their overall cost? Never Played any Warhammer till AoS (or even read any of the stories). I have no problem with this since it fits the overall storyline. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Lyons Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Matched play is for organized environments and in most of these events or leagues there will be a mixture of armies. By selecting models with conditional bonuses, you always run the risk of certain abilities being useless, no matter what keyword or mechanic (like battleshock) they target. For the armies subject to these abilities (I play Chaos with a mix of daemons and mortals), these units just change target priority. As someone who is a matched play player, I know what they are and what I need to look out for. I think they are perfectly fine as they are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoffeeGrunt Posted January 5, 2017 Share Posted January 5, 2017 Yeah, like some of my opponents get bonuses to their Save against ranged attacks. I'm Death. There's going to be good and bad matchups, and specific abilities against other factions are incredibly common in wargaming. Preferred Enemy and Hatred spring to mind for 40K, and I know Fantasy had similar mechanics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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