Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[jazman84]

11 hours ago, gertat said:

This wound be so fun to run (move run and charge almost everything)

Allegiance: Chaos

Leaders
Wrath Of Khorne Bloodthirster (330)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
Bloodthirster Of Insensate Rage (260)
Skaarac the Bloodborn (500)

Battleline
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Reaver Blades

Units
1 x Khorgoraths (80)
1 x Khorgoraths (80)
1 x Khorgoraths (80)
1 x Khorgoraths (80)

Battalions
Council of Blood (110)

Reinforcement Points (0)

Total: 1990 / 2000
Allies: 0 / 400
 

Think I have to buy Skaarac now

Good times Good times

Have you considered dropping a Korg for a Bloodstoker?

[Xasz]

Recently I find myself questioning the usefulness of Khorne abilities and artifacts more often than not. I'm starting to consider using the GA Chaos tables and abilities instead. (mostly from a mortal khorne perspective but most of it should apply to daemons as well)

Blood Tithe is a fluffy mechanic but in most of my games it doesn't matter at all. In many cases I'm either far enough ahead and it would only be a "win-more" thing or there are not enough/strong enough units left to really benefit from another move or attack. Spell-eater curse got awkward with the FAQ and a spell-heavy list doesn't care too much about it. Concerning the extra move, yeah there might be some situations where an extra move on the marker or blocking an enemy unit might give you an edge late in the game but these situations tend to be somewhat rare.

Khorne has many cool artifacts with Gorecleaver, Brazen Rune (sadly not stackable anymore), Crimson Crown... on the other hand command traits do pretty much nothing in 9 out of 10 games.

The basic chaos abilities and artifacts seem reasonable. The ability seems somewhat random but you can boost it to a 5+ around your general. I really like Unpredictable Destruction, as +1 to hit scales well with Khorne and it (might) do something from turn 1.  Cunning deceiver is actually doing something about our greatest weakness and is unconditional. Itemwise, except numbers six everything is doing something nice but they are a little bit weaker than Khorne in my opinion.

Thoughts?

Another thing I recently picked up, it seems that several players are skipping Killing Frency on their priests and are taking the hero heal instead. (haven't tried it myself, as I'm prepping for a tournament where priest aren't that useful - items/spells/prayers/abilites are rolled for)

[Darksteve]

3 minutes ago, Xasz said:

Recently I find myself questioning the usefulness of Khorne abilities and artifacts more often than not. I'm starting to consider using the GA Chaos tables and abilities instead. (mostly from a mortal khorne perspective but most of it should apply to daemons as well)

Blood Tithe is a fluffy mechanic but in most of my games it doesn't matter at all. In many cases I'm either far enough ahead and it would only be a "win-more" thing or there are not enough/strong enough units left to really benefit from another move or attack. Spell-eater curse got awkward with the FAQ and a spell-heavy list doesn't care too much about it. Concerning the extra move, yeah there might be some situations where an extra move on the marker or blocking an enemy unit might give you an edge late in the game but these situations tend to be somewhat rare.

Khorne has many cool artifacts with Gorecleaver, Brazen Rune (sadly not stackable anymore), Crimson Crowns... on the other hand command traits do pretty much nothing in 9 out of 10 games.

The basic chaos abilities and artifacts seem reasonable. The ability seems somewhat random but you can boost it to a 5+ around your general. I really like Unpredictable Destruction, as +1 to hit scales well with Khorne and it (might) do something from turn 1.  Cunning deceiver is actually doing something about our greatest weakness and is unconditional. Itemwise, except numbers six everything is doing something nice but they are a little bit weaker than Khorne in my opinion.

Thoughts?

Another thing I recently picked up, it seems that several players are skipping Killing Frency on their priests and are taking the hero heal instead. (haven't tried it myself, as I'm prepping for a tournament where priest aren't that useful - items/spells/prayers/abilites are rolled for)

What about the FAQ made Spell-eater awkward? Also why doesn't Brazen stack anymore?

[jazman84]

Just wondering if the extra attack from Crimson Haze (Freind or foe within 3" of a Wrathmonger make 1 more attack) stacks with multiple Wrathmongers?

[jazman84]

Just now, Darksteve said:

What about the FAQ made Spell-eater awkward? Also why doesn't Brazen stack anymore?

I believe he means Bloodtithe being used at beginning of Hero phase.

[Xasz]

2 minutes ago, Darksteve said:

What about the FAQ made Spell-eater awkward? Also why doesn't Brazen stack anymore?

 

Just now, jazman84 said:

I believe he means Bloodtithe being used at beginning of Hero phase.

That and you cannot have multiple Brazen Runes in your army anymore.

Later tends to be dead in several matchups on top of that.

[Heroflegend21]

I was wondering how and what are allegiance points and how do they work in matched play? And how do they affect the 2000 points allotted to regular matches play?

[Darksteve]

1 hour ago, jazman84 said:

I believe he means Bloodtithe being used at beginning of Hero phase.

It says in the FAQ "Unless otherwise stated" so the Spell Eater curse can still be used when your opponent casts a spell.

[Retro]

3 hours ago, Xasz said:

Recently I find myself questioning the usefulness of Khorne abilities and artifacts more often than not. I'm starting to consider using the GA Chaos tables and abilities instead. (mostly from a mortal khorne perspective but most of it should apply to daemons as well)

Blood Tithe is a fluffy mechanic but in most of my games it doesn't matter at all. In many cases I'm either far enough ahead and it would only be a "win-more" thing or there are not enough/strong enough units left to really benefit from another move or attack. Spell-eater curse got awkward with the FAQ and a spell-heavy list doesn't care too much about it. Concerning the extra move, yeah there might be some situations where an extra move on the marker or blocking an enemy unit might give you an edge late in the game but these situations tend to be somewhat rare.

Khorne has many cool artifacts with Gorecleaver, Brazen Rune (sadly not stackable anymore), Crimson Crown... on the other hand command traits do pretty much nothing in 9 out of 10 games.

The basic chaos abilities and artifacts seem reasonable. The ability seems somewhat random but you can boost it to a 5+ around your general. I really like Unpredictable Destruction, as +1 to hit scales well with Khorne and it (might) do something from turn 1.  Cunning deceiver is actually doing something about our greatest weakness and is unconditional. Itemwise, except numbers six everything is doing something nice but they are a little bit weaker than Khorne in my opinion.

Thoughts?

Another thing I recently picked up, it seems that several players are skipping Killing Frency on their priests and are taking the hero heal instead. (haven't tried it myself, as I'm prepping for a tournament where priest aren't that useful - items/spells/prayers/abilites are rolled for)

I've thought about running GA: chaos as well but one thing I wasn't sure about was the priests extra prayers.

It says that priests in a khorne army can have blood blessings, if we choose GA: chaos are we still a khorne army for the purposes or blood blessings? 

Really depends on what constitutes a khorne army. Whether it is the allegiance or just a common keyword across all units.

Thoughts?

 

[Jaehaerys]

7 hours ago, Xasz said:

Recently I find myself questioning the usefulness of Khorne abilities and artifacts more often than not. I'm starting to consider using the GA Chaos tables and abilities instead. (mostly from a mortal khorne perspective but most of it should apply to daemons as well)

Blood Tithe is a fluffy mechanic but in most of my games it doesn't matter at all. In many cases I'm either far enough ahead and it would only be a "win-more" thing or there are not enough/strong enough units left to really benefit from another move or attack. Spell-eater curse got awkward with the FAQ and a spell-heavy list doesn't care too much about it. Concerning the extra move, yeah there might be some situations where an extra move on the marker or blocking an enemy unit might give you an edge late in the game but these situations tend to be somewhat rare.

Khorne has many cool artifacts with Gorecleaver, Brazen Rune (sadly not stackable anymore), Crimson Crown... on the other hand command traits do pretty much nothing in 9 out of 10 games.

The basic chaos abilities and artifacts seem reasonable. The ability seems somewhat random but you can boost it to a 5+ around your general. I really like Unpredictable Destruction, as +1 to hit scales well with Khorne and it (might) do something from turn 1.  Cunning deceiver is actually doing something about our greatest weakness and is unconditional. Itemwise, except numbers six everything is doing something nice but they are a little bit weaker than Khorne in my opinion.

Thoughts?

Another thing I recently picked up, it seems that several players are skipping Killing Frency on their priests and are taking the hero heal instead. (haven't tried it myself, as I'm prepping for a tournament where priest aren't that useful - items/spells/prayers/abilites are rolled for)

I thought about this too recently. It's purely for cunning deceiver. Everything else is worse. In my last game Cunning Deceiver would have been useless, little ranged and no alpha. So I guess it swings in roundabouts.

I use 2 and 3 on the blood tithe quite often. Also used the heal one to get some heals on my support who were taking Star Drake Crimson rain or whatever it was called every turn. But there are games when I think "what good was tithe?" at the end. Also running 2 priests at the moment.

Spell Eater curse is still fine as it states when it's used. 

Crimson Crown is so good now, i used to play on 6's only pre-FAQ. I usually pop the +1 dmg trait on thirster (gives the dmg some stability) and crimson crown.

[Xasz]

4 hours ago, Retro said:

I've thought about running GA: chaos as well but one thing I wasn't sure about was the priests extra prayers.

It says that priests in a khorne army can have blood blessings, if we choose GA: chaos are we still a khorne army for the purposes or blood blessings? 

Really depends on what constitutes a khorne army. Whether it is the allegiance or just a common keyword across all units.

Thoughts?

 

You can be Khorne allegiance, get the prayers and then decide to take the GA tables. See page 77. last paragraph.

[Nico]

You definitely cannot mix and match Allegiance packs. You cannot get Prayers and Chaos Allegiance Pack for example.

[Xasz]

4 minutes ago, Nico said:

You definitely cannot mix and match Allegiance packs. You cannot get Prayers and Chaos Allegiance Pack for example.

Yeah, I mixed it up. 

Sadly blessings are listed under allegiance-abilities, I thought they were not and their only restriction was the "building-allegiance".

It doesn't work here, but generally you can build your army with allegiance X take their BLifs and then choose GA tables.  (as described on p. 77.)

My bad.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I don't think Bloodtithe is a particularly powerful Allegiance ability somewhat situational but can come though at just the right time however. That said the articfacts are great and the command traits are powerful if you choose your force with them in mind. 

[Fireymonkeyboy]

To what are you comparing BT?  It allows for out-of phase movement, unconditional dispel, army-wide healing in an army with multi-wound models, and out of phase combat.  I think Tzeentch's is a little more powerful, but BT can be insane if used well.  

[Xasz]

1 hour ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

To what are you comparing BT?  It allows for out-of phase movement, unconditional dispel, army-wide healing in an army with multi-wound models, and out of phase combat.  I think Tzeentch's is a little more powerful, but BT can be insane if used well.  

DoT is A LOT more powerful.

Blood tithe is never a comeback mechanic and more often than not just win-more.

In a normal battle you can start using tithe in turn 3. If it's an exceptional bloody or fast battle a little bit sooner (Murderhost) and than it's most likely pushing an already won game into a slaughter or you lost your key units and cannot capitalize on your points.

As Khorne does not provide the best attrition lists, tithe points start to flow consistently when the game is already rather advanced and we are losing effectiveness fast. With something like SCE blood tithe would actually insanely good.

The consideration was choosing GA: Chaos abilities instead, which provide defensive options in earlier turns and a random but interesting ability. (Chaos Talisman is nice as well on Mr. Banner)

Considering my mix-up above, it's more or less only a thought that should cross your mind if you don't have any priest in your army. (pure Murderhost, Bloodmarked Warband...)

[Arkiham]

I found blood tithe also not too helpful also, and it expending all points really makes it worse.

If you run a high model count army, typically those models will attack when they die anyway so that doesn't stack, and healing them is pointless as it's also typically alive or dead. 1 or 2 wounds, meaning most of the table is less useful

If you run higher wound count things they can attack when they die but so few  die it's a waste of a point, meaning you may as well wait for healing.

Only a few decent items and +1 to hit on most of our units is far better so chaos massively out performs it I think 

[Ollie Grimwood]

You don't get the healing without Khorne Allegiance though. Across the whole package It matches up rather well with others 

Edit: don't worry I mistook what you were saying

[Fireymonkeyboy]

DoT allegiance ability is powerful because it can remove unpredictability in the game - I'm not arguing that.  BT is powerful because it provides opportunities for combat (at which we excel) and movement (at which we are at best, okay), that would otherwise be unavailable.  Being able to fight and move out of phase, ie. in ways barred to your opponent, is a tremendous advantage (especially in objective based games), even if it can only be deployed a few times in a game.   There are other things it let you do that are impossible for other factions - like when a DoT Lord of Change uses a 6 from their destiny dice to get a casting roll of 14, which we can unconditionally unbind using BT.

That said, I do think you need to build a list, at least to some extent, to take advantage of BT.  There's lots of options, from MSU to artifact selection, that maximize the availability of BT points.  I think you're underestimating it.

FMB

[Xasz]

5 hours ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

That said, I do think you need to build a list, at least to some extent, to take advantage of BT.  There's lots of options, from MSU to artifact selection, that maximize the availability of BT points.  I think you're underestimating it.

FMB

It's certainly not underestimated, the effects are inherently very strong.

What's questioned is their availability.

We pick Khorne-abilities for the artifacts and prayers, not for the tithe.

Other than that, MSU is not a good concept for Khorne. The reasons are numerous, we don't fair well in a war of attrition, our units are less autonomous than others, we have little ranged capabilities... On top of that, running small units may give you tithe points sooner and faster, but with smaller units the effects are less powerful.

Blood tithe is fluffy and you can certainly build a fluffy lists around it, but in a competitive sense the concept is flawed by design.

[Ollie Grimwood]

I wouldn't say it's flawed but more that you need to plan around it to get the most out of it.  For example taking blood sacrifice and/or extra heroes with command traits. Granted not quite as obvious as Destiny dice  but useable with forethought. Ironically so. 

[ledha]

blood tithe make us better in melee, and give us sometime a better move for one unit when several units were killed. It doesn't cover our weakness well

we have good artifact and very good general trait (reroll charge for everyone ? ****** yes) but the grand alliance trait are much more better, especially the +1 to hit against order or the -1 to hit for the opponent

[kozokus]

2 hours ago, ledha said:

blood tithe make us better in melee,

Debatable, I suppose you are talking about the N°5 fight in the hero phase. This one is perticulary situationnal, requiring several things : 

• You have to already be in melee, seems logical but it implies that a combat phase already happened between your unit and the opponent and that combat isn't over.
• You need to make a combat phase before the combat phase because you are in the opponent turn and you are in danger of losing total or half your unit if he picks it first, something you can prevent if you strike first.
• You are i the opponent turn and next turn is yours and you need your unit to be able to move and charge freely next turn, something you cannot do if the ennemy is still alive and something you cannot do with only one combat phase.
• Having that extra combat phase is better than getting a free move/charge with another unit/dispelling that mystic shield/gate

The weakest part is to have something already in combat that is not already wrecked against something that is not already wrecked as most combat are usually very fast (at elast thoses where you have 5 Tithe points at your disposal).

[Fireymonkeyboy]

I guess what I'm struggling with is how people think BT, or Khorne in general comparable unfavourably to the Chaos options, which seem weaker in almost every way.  Unpredictable destruction is just that, and with the possible exception of Cunning Deceiver, all the other abilities are sub-par.  The advantage of Chaos is being able to cherry pick the intrinsically strongest warscrolls across the GA, not the allegiance abilities.

FMB

 

[Ollie Grimwood]

1 hour ago, Fireymonkeyboy said:

I guess what I'm struggling with is how people think BT, or Khorne in general comparable unfavourably to the Chaos options, which seem weaker in almost every way.  Unpredictable destruction is just that, and with the possible exception of Cunning Deceiver, all the other abilities are sub-par.  The advantage of Chaos is being able to cherry pick the intrinsically strongest warscrolls across the GA, not the allegiance abilities.

FMB

 

I'm think "some" people is probably a more accurate term. I agree with you.  The Khorne command traits and artefacts are brilliant and for Bloodbound you've a massive selection. Yes the battletrait is situational in many cases however situations involving combat and  Khorne armies happen a lot. Khorne also benefits on a number of good unit choices which are very reasonably priced which benefit well from the combined Allegiance abilities. 

Some may prefer the general Chaos abilities.  Left them it may suit their playstyles better that in no way invalidates the Khorne abilities.