Let's chat : Blades of Khorne!

[Aspirant Snaeper]

He's worth dropping for speed and elite units if you notice he's getting auto-killed. If your opponent is dedicating double his points to shoot him off though then you're still benefitting. 

The Goretide could certainly work without him, but I think he should still be thrown in just as a distraction. Our opponents magnetizing focus on him could be used as an advantage. 

I think the synergy with Daemons is important as they really are good without him. It's a tough call though. Re-rolling successful spells, ignoring battleshock and getting an extra attack is just so hard to pass up. 

[Jharen]

@pez5767The Bloodsecrator is always going to be one of those things that's just hard to pass up on because he provides SO much for so little investment.  Do you NEED him to win?  No.  But why not take him?  As @Aspirant Snaeper said, even if he dies turn one it still took your opponent resources to kill him.

If you were to build a list without one though you'd want to insure you're taking only things that function well without him.   Because you're giving up attack count as a source of damage output you need to insure you regain that damage output someplace. Skullcrushers work well enough in a Brass Stampede without him because they are dealing mortal wounds.  Bloodreavers you'll want to just avoid altogether.  Wrathmongers would be a great unit to spam without a Bloodsecrator because they are going to feed you extra attacks and are great on their own, and in fact The Bloodforged Battalion would be something worth building without a Bloodsecrator due to its use of Wrathmongers.  The Bloodmarked Warband (from the Everchosen Book) could also be an option for gaining additional attacks without a Bloodsecrator.

I've made posts along with many others in this thread on how army building within Khorne works best (in our opinions and experience), and a lot of it comes down to some basic important points.  Some of those are as follows:

-Target Saturation.  Make sure everything you field is dangerous.  Don't sink your attention into one big thing, or one combo, and hope your opponent doesn't break it turn one by one shotting something key to it working.  Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

-Hordes.  Khorne shines as a horde army.  You want to swarm your opponent with wounds, so look at your wound to point ratio.

-Multiple Small Units.  Fielding large blocks of troops isn't normally the best idea.  It can work in some situations of course (Bloodletters!), but due to how Blood Tithes are gained you want to have smaller sized units of things like Bloodreavers (10) or Blood Warriors (10).

-Waves.  Come at your enemy in waves that are spread out wide and in layers.  Deny your opponent the ability to move freely across the table, and more importantly deny them any ability to teleport or deploy into your middle.

-Mobility.  You want to have something, somewhere, that is fast and dangerous.  Sometimes this can be in the form of a Battalion (Murderhost, Goretide, etc) or just in faster units like Skullcrushers/Bloodcrushers, or Bloodstokers, artifacts, etc.  The key here is to have something that you can toss at your opponent fast to keep them in check while you move across the table with anything that may be slow to engage.

None of these are hard and fast rules that are going to always apply.  There are always exceptions in an open game like AoS depending on your local meta, what you enjoy playing, etc.  But I feel these are some key things to keep in mind when building your lists.  I'm sure others will chime in here with some great pointers as well.  You should really read back through the thread a bit as well, at least maybe the past 5 or...10 pages maybe?  There's been a lot of discussion on lists and tactics for you to read through.

[ledha]

with the new items, the bloodsecrator can be really hard to kill. Between the reroll 1, the ignore -1 rend and the 2+ invulnerable against spells, a bloodsecrator in cover can be extremely hard to remove

[Killax]

In general I believe there is never a really good enough reason to not run a Bloodsecrator As I feel its where the army hinges on to be functional as a full or largely full melee force. 

We can certainly make stuff difficult to remove, for competative play however stacking up on key Heroes makes the ability hard to remove, which is often ideal.

[Centurio]

So, with the Brazen Rune, can I stop an enemy spell cast anywhere on the board, once per game?  Or can it only stop a spell cast at the bearer of the Rune?  I thought anywhere on the board, but then started second guessing myself.

[pez5767]

22 hours ago, ledha said:

with the new items, the bloodsecrator can be really hard to kill. Between the reroll 1, the ignore -1 rend and the 2+ invulnerable against spells, a bloodsecrator in cover can be extremely hard to remove

 

On 5/14/2017 at 7:03 PM, Aspirant Snaeper said:

He's worth dropping for speed and elite units if you notice he's getting auto-killed. If your opponent is dedicating double his points to shoot him off though then you're still benefitting. 

 

Thank you for the feedback guys. It's actually the two points mentioned by Aspirant Snaeper and ledha above that really have me becoming disillusioned with the Bloodsecrator. I fully understand the potential of how amazing the guy can be. In the few games he's stayed alive, the Bloodbound Mortal Khorne lists I've run have been awesome. However, that's a pretty rare occurrence these days. 

I don't see the Bloodsecrator as durable. The Sylvaneth, Stormcast, and Savage Orruk armies I play in my area seem to have very little trouble finding the mortal wounds or volume of fire to kill the Bloodsecrator quite easily.  Despite the various buffs I put on him (see ledha's post above) and due to the fact he only has 5 wounds and has to be in shooting range of the enemy to be effective, my opponents typically have the Bloodsecrator dead in turn 2 (turn 1 in the last 3 games). If I never get to use his ability then he isn't a very effective use of points.

As for the idea that if he is killed on turn one, at least my opponent is dedicating points to killing him, I'm not sure I see the logic in this either. Isn't the general idea with target priority that you devote as many resources as are necessary in order to eliminate the primary threat, so it's worth it to the enemy to kill the Bloodsecrator regardless of the cost. The Bloodsecrator is so good that he is always the primary threat to my opponent. This means that he's eating up resources (artifacts and placement) and effectively becoming an "all the eggs in one basket" kind of scenario.   Especially considering his cost in terms of points to wounds ratio as Jharen mentioned above.

@Jharen Thank you for all the tips on list builds. I've looked through quite a few of the lists on this thread, and the frequent use of Bloodsecrators in those lists is part of what motivated to make my original post. Much of what you mention above is much more the direction I think I'll be going with my army in the future. Skullcrushers, Bloodwarriors, and Wrathmongers (waves, armor, and attacks) seem to have a lot more to offer than Bloodreavers and the Bloodsecrator. That said, I won't give up on the ol' Bloodsecrator-Crutch yet, but I look forward to running some different combos without him once I get some other units painted. 

How are folks feel about Khorgoraths since the update to Dmg 2?

[Aspirant Snaeper]

22 minutes ago, pez5767 said:

As for the idea that if he is killed on turn one, at least my opponent is dedicating points to killing him, I'm not sure I see the logic in this either. Isn't the general idea with target priority that you devote as many resources as are necessary in order to eliminate the primary threat, so it's worth it to the enemy to kill the Bloodsecrator regardless of the cost. The Bloodsecrator is so good that he is always the primary threat to my opponent. This means that he's eating up resources (artifacts and placement) and effectively becoming an "all the eggs in one basket" kind of scenario.   Especially considering his cost in terms of points to wounds ratio as Jharen mentioned above.

The idea behind using the Bloodsecrator as a red herring unit is to not sink anything into him. Your opponents are trained to go after him so use that to your advantage. Build lists that work well without him (Murderhost + Brass Stampede, The Goretide, Goreblade Warband maybe, Bloodforged, etc) then throw him in just to fool your opponents into thinking he's important. 

120 points to make your opponents first/second turn of movement/attacking practically handwritten to you in letter form is worth it in my opinion. 

Quote

@Jharen Thank you for all the tips on list builds. I've looked through quite a few of the lists on this thread, and the frequent use of Bloodsecrators in those lists is part of what motivated to make my original post. Much of what you mention above is much more the direction I think I'll be going with my army in the future. Skullcrushers, Bloodwarriors, and Wrathmongers (waves, armor, and attacks) seem to have a lot more to offer than Bloodreavers and the Bloodsecrator. That said, I won't give up on the ol' Bloodsecrator-Crutch yet, but I look forward to running some different combos without him once I get some other units painted. 

How are folks feel about Khorgoraths since the update to Dmg 2?

I'm keen to know how it goes with you not running him, but I'm still busy training my opponents to target him. 

Khorgoraths at Damage 2 would have been awesome at 80 points. They might be worth it if you play a lot of Sylvaneth, as they can romp through the woods unaffected. In general, I just don't think you get back what you pay for when it comes to monsters. 

 

I really hate this forum software. 

[Aspirant Snaeper]

I realize it may not be the perfect answer, but a Chaos Warshrine is an attractive take. 

You get a little Slaughterpriest, Bloodsecrator and Khorgorath rolled into one. Given the "FNP" and attack bonuses it already gives out, I think it could work well with "Brazen Fury". Stick it behind some 'reavers so they get the additional Totem attack and you have 340 points of stand-alone buffs with 6 Hero slots and 1000+ points to work with. 

Or 270 points of you only run 10...

Allegiance: Khorne

Leaders
Lord Of Khorne On Juggernaut (140)
- General
- Trait: Violent Urgency 
- Artefact: Mark of the Destroyer 
Bloodstoker (80)
- Artefact: Talisman of Burning Blood 
Slaughterpriest (100)
- Bloodbathed Axe
- Artefact: The Brazen Rune 
Blood Throne (120)

Battleline
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (160)
- Ensorcelled Axes
- Khorne Bloodbound Battleline
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (160)
- Bloodglaives
- Khorne Bloodbound Battleline
3 x Mighty Skullcrushers (160)
- Bloodglaives
- Khorne Bloodbound Battleline
10 x Blood Warriors (200)
- Goreaxes
10 x Bloodreavers (70)
- Meatripper Axes
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)
5 x Flesh Hounds (100)
- Khorne Daemon Battleline (Karanak General)
30 x Bloodletters (300)

Units
1 x Chaos Warshrine (200)
- Mark of Chaos: Khorne

Battalions
Brass Stampede (80)
Murderhost (20)

Total: 1990/2000
 

[Praecautus]

I don't have my BoK book handy, can the warshrone use the new slaughterpriest prayers that are in the book?

I keep looking at this unit as something fun to add

[Arkiham]

1 hour ago, Praecautus said:

I don't have my BoK book handy, can the warshrone use the new slaughterpriest prayers that are in the book?

I keep looking at this unit as something fun to add

Yeah, doesn't get their new banner item though.

[Jharen]

I've run my warshrine in various lists and overall it is not great and not terrible.  I never really regret taking it when I do, but it's always a battle of "I could get a lot better stuff for 200 points".

If you're running a lot of Bloodreavers I think it can really earn its keep as a mobile totem.  The ward save is handy but don't take it for that, it's a 6+, you're playing with a lot of wishful thinking there.  The ability to take one of the new prayers has certainly made it more appealing than before (remember though if it rolls a 1 while using those it will d3 mortal wound itself, then you get your 6+ save for those).

Here's what sneaky thing I did with it...I buffed one of these up one game and ran it into the opponents Ironjawz Brutes and it certainly surprised everyone with what it managed to do.  I had it +1 to saves (Bronzed Flesh), +1 to hit (Killing Frenzy), +1 to wound (Blood Stampede), and 2 extra attacks (bloodsecrator and wrathmongers) and it was rerolling all failed hits from its own prayer. 

What I'm getting at here I guess is this...   it isn't great right out of the box, but it buffs up very nicely.  Due to how non-threatening this thing tends to be and it's decent save and wound count, it can tend to sneak up on your opponent as they will just ignore the thing in favor of more threatening targets (usually the hordes surround it).  Then you buff it all to hell and slam it into them and watch their head spin a bit.  You're best off throwing it at things that don't have high saves though, as it lacks for rend, but it should handle a single 3+ hero just fine if need be.

Also I love the model.

Also you should put a newer Khorne model on this thing (like a Slaughterpriest!) for cool factor and for rolling better.

 

[ledha]

I often find the way to make my bloodsecrator survive. Against a sylvaneth (and those damn bow), the ignore rend -1 make him with a 2+ armor save when in a forest against those attacks. If he doesn't have bows, or not enough, the brazen rune will make him immune to the forest awakening.

He work VERY well with the goretide. Moving in hero phase then planting the banner make him able to buff everyone without being let behind. It's harder against the stormcast and all those mortal wound, but honestly, few armies are blessed with a support hero with a 3+ save.

As for the chaos warshrine, the 6+ save after save is random, but it always make my opponent think twice, especially when they use mortal wounds : they are never sure if they will make the exact damage they hope, and can disturb their plan greatly.

Or you can be a lucky guy. With a 5+ invulnerable save from the lord berzerker trait, my mighty lord of khorne survived 15 shot from vanguard raptors with longstrike crossbow

[facelez]

9 minutes ago, ledha said:

 

Or you can be a lucky guy. With a 5+ invulnerable save from the lord berzerker trait, my mighty lord of khorne survived 15 shot from vanguard raptors with longstrike crossbow

Berzerker Lord only works in the Combat Phase, not in the Shooting Phase

[ledha]

1 minute ago, facelez said:

Berzerker Lord only works in the Combat Phase, not in the Shooting Phase

WOAH. The "combat phase" totally disappread in my eye. I feel so bad now, thinking i cheated my opponent on that one...

[Killax]

6 hours ago, Centurio said:

So, with the Brazen Rune, can I stop an enemy spell cast anywhere on the board, once per game?  Or can it only stop a spell cast at the bearer of the Rune?  I thought anywhere on the board, but then started second guessing myself.

We know it's once per game but I do think it's a really good question as what the limit to it is. I too assumed it was anywhere on the board but it doesn't specifically say as such as with Spelleater Curse, so if you are playing locally or at a tournament I'd discuss it with the TO and your opponent.

Personally I think it can only unbind within 18" because it doesn't state it in another manner like Spelleater Curse. It just states that it allows you to automatically unbind. This most certainly doesn't make it bad but it's another reason why I favour Battalions that speed up our forces a notch, so that you can cover more board for unbinding purposes. We have a lot of options there, in general Khorne's defensive Abilities and Artefacts arn't that amazing, Brazen Rune is ideal as the 3rd Artefact however and in general good on a Bloodsecrator.  

20 minutes ago, facelez said:

Berzerker Lord only works in the Combat Phase, not in the Shooting Phase

Exact. It's very easy to miss and a 5+ 'ward save' seems really cool but it's so limited in it's use that the other Command Traits are often far superior to use.

18 minutes ago, ledha said:

WOAH. The "combat phase" totally disappread in my eye. I feel so bad now, thinking i cheated my opponent on that one...

Well, just mention it and say it won't happen again.

As above I still see loads of lists really focussing on the defensive abilities and artefacts. In general, and I don't mean to be rude, this isn't what Khorne armies are build for. The defense is offense and that pretty much also pans out in how Jharen described the Khorne factions on the previous page.
There certainly is an option to get something out of the defensive Artefacts but in most cases it also requires Bronzed Flesh.
Which is all cool but having essentially 20+ wounds with Bronzed Flesh as opposed to a single Hero will work out better for you. Ideally the Bloodsecrator is around, but using a single one is still not what I'd call an ideal Khorne Army.

So for those looking at using Blades of Khorne forces for competative purposes, keep in mind that a deal with Khorne will always force you to go 'all in'. We have the option to include some ranged support in the form of Slaughterpriests and Skullcannons but ideally you still swamp the board with more wounds as your opponent can dish out Mortal Wounds. Especially with the way Tournaments work now, Missle attacks are unrestricted and Heroes are easy to snipe down it's important to fill in your general strategy. Accept that if you can't go in there by turn 1 (through various combinations) that you will lose a unit at higher tables turn 1 and perhaps even 2...

If I had to pick my "bests" from each list it would look like this:
Khorne Bloodbound Command Trait - Slaughterborn
Khorne Daemon Command Trait - Immense Power
Khorne Mortal Command Trait - Violent Urgency
Fully knowing that Slaughterborn is available to all and that there are certainly some exceptions to make here but they are still essential to what Khorne wants to be doing. For I believe Slaughterborn is generally really good for heavy hitters but if you do run a Infantry heavy force Violent Urgency is just ideal. 
Murderous Artefacts - Gorecleaver
Trophies of War - Mark of the Destroyer/Talisman of Burning Blood
Daemonic (Bloodthirster )Weapons - Deathdealer/Harvester of Skulls 
Daemonic (Bloodletter) Adornments - The Crimson Crown/Mark of the Slayer
Damage output, damage output and speed. It's what makes Khorne love us bit it's also what this force requires from us to be competative at higher levels. Again if you run very infantry heavy without Battalion speed up support the Talisman of Burning Blood remains as essential as a Bloodstoker. Theoretically having 60+ attacks is wonderful up until the moment you can't reach your opponent in time. 

Purposefully left out the Banners of Khorne because I havn't found a good enough reason to run them with the purpose the Bloodsecrator comes with. Because the moment you'd have Artefacts left I often look at The Brazen Rune as one of the few good defensive deals we do have. 
For a Slaughterpriest Gore Pilgrims in my eyes is the way to go IF you want to run them (and nobody forces you, these guys still go down quick) with Bronzed Flesh being the prime Blessing for him. We know what Mystic Shield does, no need to mention it again  

The real question I'd continiously ask myself is, am I running these choices and if not, I'd better have a really good reason for it. I still don't believe we are forced to thake any Battalion but again the ones who speed us up do fill in a particular older weakness. If I had to point to the best bang for the buck Murderhost still pushes out all the competition. For fans of the Bloodbound mono armies I still really like Gore Pilgrims, maxed Brass Stampede and The Goretide.
There is certainly a bit more to the book but it also means you have to have a good view of your meta. The Skullfiend Tribe is awesome in a Monster filled meta, Bloodhunt seems viable aswell but in general I came to the conclusion that the Bloodthirsers look awesome but by Monsterous Hero comparison can only be great if they also happen to be the General. Which sadly stops my plan to go for 3 Bloodthirsters.

Lastly it seems Skarbrand has fallen of the radar but I really want some Bronzed Flesh Skarbrand stories  

 

[Jharen]

4 hours ago, Killax said:

Lastly it seems Skarbrand has fallen of the radar but I really want some Bronzed Flesh Skarbrand stories

This...could be nasty in more casual settings for sure.  Won't hold up to a gunline still but...owch.

Yeeeeah, now that this idea is in my head I may be losing some friends much sooner than expected.  Hell, I may just toss Archaon in there too and mystic shield Skarbrand to a 2+ save send them both in side by side and watch my opponent stumble around while they decide what to try to kill first.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

7 hours ago, ledha said:

As for the chaos warshrine, the 6+ save after save is random, but it always make my opponent think twice, especially when they use mortal wounds : they are never sure if they will make the exact damage they hope, and can disturb their plan greatly.

Or you can be a lucky guy. With a 5+ invulnerable save from the lord berzerker trait, my mighty lord of khorne survived 15 shot from vanguard raptors with longstrike crossbow

For sure the Warshrine isnt *the* answer. But if you're wanting to not have to rely on a Bloodsecrator, it's a great way to keep a unit of 'reavers relevant. 

I'm personally a fan of multiple synergies in an army to ensure my opponent can't remove one model and neuter 1800+ points at once.

I especially like the increased synergy with Daemons because, like everything Khorne, they are good with a Bloodsecrator buff but they dont need it necessarily. Keep a Bloodletter hero around and that's all you need usually. 

[Killax]

2 hours ago, Jharen said:

This...could be nasty in more casual settings for sure.  Won't hold up to a gunline still but...owch.

Yeeeeah, now that this idea is in my head I may be losing some friends much sooner than expected.  Hell, I may just toss Archaon in there too and mystic shield Skarbrand to a 2+ save send them both in side by side and watch my opponent stumble around while they decide what to try to kill first.

Full Skarbrand Archaon tag teaming!  Tossing in Skaarac for the sake of it hahahaha!

[Pathies]

So after the feedback that you guys gave me, (thank you again by the way)  I changed my list to have a more mortal focus and stick with the goretide as opposed to also having a murderhost! I feel that this will still get the same sort of speed I want while having some hitting power with the bonus from having 6 in the unit of skullcrushers. One thing I am unsure of though is whether to keep the banner of rage or to give the bloodstoker the talisman of burning blood. What do you guys think?

 

Leaders

Bloodsecrator (banner of rage) 120

Bloodstoker 80

Bloodthirster of insensate rage 280

Exalted deathbringer (mark of the destroyer) 80

Mighty lord of khorne (general) (violent urgency, gorecleaver) 140

Battlelines 

Blood warriors x10 (dual axes) 200

Blood warriors x5 (gorefists) 100

Blood warriors x5 (gorefists) 100

Other

Mighty skullcrushers x6 (bloodglaives) 320

Skullreapers x5 (daemon blades/soultearer) 140

Skullreapers x5 (daemon blades/soultearer) 140

Wrathmongers x5 180

Battalions 

Slaughterborn 80

Goretide 40

 

[Jharen]

I'd suggest dropping the Banner of Rage for either the Brazen Rune(2+ save vs spells), or Blood-forged Armor (ignore rend of less than -2) on your Bloodsecrator so as to provide some protection for him.  Ideally you'll want to swap these out depending what you'll be facing.

[Aspirant Snaeper]

While I'll say that that a Goretide'd Bloodsecrator is about the only time a Banner of Khorne might be worth taking (since he can still move), I'm going to have to re-iterate Jharen's point. Brazen Rune him or something to that effect. 

[pez5767]

Thanks for all the feedback and discussion about the Bloodsecrator folks. Lots of ideas to roll around and work with here.

In terms of Mono Mortal Khorne lists, what are people's thoughts on best options for generals?

As I see it, there are 3 front runners to be your general:

Might Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut: Good mobility, lots of wounds, durable, mediocre combat output

Mighty Lord of Khorne: Synergies with Battalions, unbind ability, threat of axe-death ability, less durable

Aspring Deathbringer: Great for buffing, low-target priority, lower cost, no battalion help, even lower survivability

 

What's your favorite? Who did I miss? Is the primary deciding factor based on battalion choice? Is there a sleeper out there for being the general?

[misthv]

53 minutes ago, pez5767 said:

Thanks for all the feedback and discussion about the Bloodsecrator folks. Lots of ideas to roll around and work with here.

In terms of Mono Mortal Khorne lists, what are people's thoughts on best options for generals?

As I see it, there are 3 front runners to be your general:

Might Lord of Khorne on Juggernaut: Good mobility, lots of wounds, durable, mediocre combat output

Mighty Lord of Khorne: Synergies with Battalions, unbind ability, threat of axe-death ability, less durable

Aspring Deathbringer: Great for buffing, low-target priority, lower cost, no battalion help, even lower survivability

 

What's your favorite? Who did I miss? Is the primary deciding factor based on battalion choice? Is there a sleeper out there for being the general?

I'd say the Juggie Lord is the best all round and most versatile general. Fast, reliable wound output (especially w Goreglaive), survivability and buffing. Aspiring I would use as support and access its command ability through blood tithe. The Lord on foot is still good and scary but would be hit or miss. In the Goretide it is ofc more dangerous, but I don't have that much experience from that. 

[Killax]

@Pathies I largely like it, I agree with the above that I would probably kit out some charaters differently. In addition, I'd consider how much you really want to have a Bloodthirster in there. The option is certainly there and could mix well with Slaughterborn if he also was your General but now he seems like he's filling in a job that 2 Khorgoraths could also do and likely be slightly better at aswell (because they can be part of The Goretide). 
If you where to drop the Bloodthirster or switch it for another Hero you'd at least be able to include another unit of Skullreapers. To me the essence of The Goretide remains that it's very powerful as a horde. The 'more elite' you go, the less functionality you obtain from all the nice rules.

- As for mono Mortals, don't forget to reconsider Slaves to Darkness options! 
I think all Heroes we have are worthy models to consider in Bloodbound, so to say which General would be the best is really dependant on your complete army. The same applies for Bloodthirsters aswell. Sometimes you only want a beater and Skarbrand is sufficient. Sometimes you want to stack the effects of Command Abilities etc. etc. 

Sometimes players like Generals to be part of the battle, if that is the case I think both Bloodthirster and Khorne Lord on Juggernaut are fantastic choices. In other cases you want your General to be there for support reasons and second wave combat, which the above usually "can't wait for", by large due to costs or charge/combat abilities involved. 

 

[kozokus]

On the Juggerlord account, one can say that he pass the "thundertusk test"