Let's chat Disciples of Tzeentch

[Flindt]

@Nico you mentioned the potential for big Archaon with the new Tzeentch in an earlier post. Have you had the chance to theorycraft a bit about it, or is it a bit premature?

[Arkiham]

Gotta wait for the battalions tbh.

If you run  fatesworn it could work.

 

Question.

Fatesworn Warband does work with Kairic Acolytes ranged attacks doesn't it ?

[Arkiham]

Note also,  chaos spawn are now tzeentch only. 

[Nico]

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i asked this very question at whw today when i saw the scroll.

You will be using the old tzeemtch scrolls for the gt heat one. official announcement will be made monday re that.

 

Yeah - this seems like the right position. For a given Event, the Rules, points, FAQ, etc. should be locked as at the list submission date, which was in the past (it was last weekend). I cannot see how this could work otherwise (if you submit lists and then find that the list changes in cost).

 

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@Nico you mentioned the potential for big Archaon with the new Tzeentch in an earlier post. Have you had the chance to theorycraft a bit about it, or is it a bit premature?

There's the obvious use of Destiny Dice for the Wound Rolls. Then - more insidiously, he could be in an army with a LoC (one Command Ability) and then someone in the Tzeentch army could summon greater Daemons, which can then use their Command Abilities immediately.

I suspect that you will not be able to use Destiny Dice on (say) the charge roll of a Khorne Daemon, but still useful to be able to bring on other types of Daemons. Above all else, you can be very flexible, drop Archaon and a few Wizards, (provided you know you will not get shot off first turn), then bring on a LoC, then bring on Daemons to taste in order to counter your opponent. Given the reliability of the Tzeentch casting (e.g. even the Heralds with once per game cast abilities). 

[Nico]

I've been thinking about Fatesworn and the problem is that it's stamped Everchosen, which means that it breaks Tzeentch Allegiance - so no (Destiny) dice! Bit of a shame.

[Rogue Explorator]

1 hour ago, Nico said:

Isn't there an FAQ question, which basically deals with this point (command models are armed with whatever, they don't need to carry 3 things)?

There is and it solves the quite matter neatly for units with unified equipment.

Problem with the Tzaangors wild mix of equipment is, iconbearers and hornblowers carry schroedingers arsenal. That model holding just a standart or brayhorn could be equipped with a sword and shield or two swords, it could even wear a greatblade or be a mutant.

There is no way to tell, so better hope your opponent noted down the exact loadout of his command squad for every Tzaangor unit on his army list, when you play against an Tzeentch army.

[Andreas]

1 minute ago, Rogue Explorator said:

There is and it solves the quite matter neatly for units with unified equipment.

Problem with the Tzaangors wild mix of equipment is, iconbearers and hornblowers carry schroedingers arsenal. That model holding just a standart or brayhorn could be equipped with a sword and shield or two swords, it could even wear a greatblade or be a mutant.

There is no way to tell, so better hope your opponent noted down the exact loadout of his command squad for every Tzaangor unit on his army list, when you play against an Tzeentch army.

Easiest way to keap track of this could be to do WYSIWYG. For example if you want a shield put it in the back if you cant put it anywhere alse. Two swords put the second swords on the back or in the ground etc..

[Rogue Explorator]

4 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Easiest way to keap track of this could be to do WYSIWYG. For example if you want a shield put it in the back if you cant put it anywhere alse. Two swords put the second swords on the back or in the ground etc..

That would be the curteous and conflict preventing option and what I'll do.

But, between the "official" assembly and the FAQ, it is very easy for those so inclined to abuse the nebulous load out and even for those who just did not take the issue into account to unintentionally confuse and frustrate their opponent.

It is a small issue by itself, but the collection of circumsticial abilities and special unit members make tzaangor a potentially very annoying unit to play or play against. And that is poor design, not from a balance perspective, but from a perspective of fluidity and enjoyment of play.

[Phantajisto]

Couple of little things:

Tzaangor Shaman has the daemon keyword so he benefits from the LoC/Kairos command ability (Ogroid, Magister and Curseling don't)

Lord of Change has potential for a close combat build with sword or a ranged build with rod, matching either with complementary traits/artefacts.

Spawn are now Tzeentch only.

Seems a lot of emphasis on creating or adding to other units through spells and abilities... should be a headache for opponents.

[Rogue Explorator]

Spawn can still choose all god keywords and are still listed among Slaves to Darkness in the List.

Fatemaster and Tzaangor Shaman have the daemon keyword like all Chaos heroes on some sort of daemon mount. They can all activate Locus abilities and benefit from any ability that strengthens daemons. I think this also means the Tzaangor should be able to take daemon spells, by RAW.

[Nico]

Presumably if your general is both Daemon and Mortal, then you can pick one of the two "Allegiance Packs", i.e. the command traits (and artefacts) that are specific to Mortal or Daemon - not both. Hope that makes sense. 

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Tzaangor Shaman has the daemon keyword so he benefits from the LoC/Kairos command ability (Ogroid, Magister and Curseling don't)

Good spot. Although Kairos doesn't have a Command Ability.

[Nico]

It's still early days, but it looks like GW have done well by not creating buffs on the various Wizards that can be used outside of Tzeentch allegiance - so there's a genuine trade off between sticking to allegiance and not doing so. Presumably most of the buffs will be either lore spells (so Allegiance dependent - you will not get them in a mixed Chaos force), or keyword dependent or Battalion buffs. 

 

[mhsellwood]

Had a quick peek at the Tzaangor warscrolls - they look really potent at this point with some good speed (6" move + run and charge), good damage output in close combat, mortal wound output at range, and to top it all off they are battleline!

I could see at 2,000 a blob of them and a couple of small units of acolytes with an Ogroid forming a really solid objective assaulting task force.

[Arkiham]

7 hours ago, Rogue Explorator said:

Spawn can still choose all god keywords and are still listed among Slaves to Darkness in the List.

Fatemaster and Tzaangor Shaman have the daemon keyword like all Chaos heroes on some sort of daemon mount. They can all activate Locus abilities and benefit from any ability that strengthens daemons. I think this also means the Tzaangor should be able to take daemon spells, by RAW.

Definitely just tzeentch 

[Goodwin]

Do you think maybe they just included it like that since they needed to have the Warscroll in then for all the Tzeentchy things?  So, the app and GH and such may not change?  Especially if its in a Battalion/Formation, this way there is no confusion about "so can I take it as Khorne!?"

That's kind of peculiar to retcon an existing model to just be ONLY one God, when its generally all or none?

[Arkiham]

Well, it kinda makes sense, spawndom is really a tzeentch thing.

The only things which can make spawns are tzeentch, and vortex unless you take one from stock, which is only tzeentch now. 

They missed out massively to change the vortex beasts rules to be a tzeentch monster. Such a  fail. 

I might even make a mock up of one which is tzeentch based and send it to them.

[Arkiham]

It should be more obvious than the Warscroll on the app shows, as the points of the unit is 180 for 10, which is amazing value!

I'll be using the dual blades load out. 

For that 180 points you gain.

4 great weapon guys, one of which should be the unit champion. Hitting on 2 attacks, 3+(2+champion) [you'll likely have a hero near by, so let's call it 3+] -1 2dmg.

2 dual welding guys doing 3 attacks each, on 3+3+-1dmg

Icon bearer and musician.

That leaves 4 guys, with a load out, which makes it obvious what they're equipped with.

Compare this with chaos warriors.. it's not even close, these guys are absolutely obsolete now in terms of damage output.

More tanky mind, due to their armour and bravery.

[CJPT]

I do wish the minimum matched play size for Tzaangors was 5, honestly, because if it was you'd have a perfectly valid squad out of the Silver Tower models - two greatweapons, two dual-wielders, one shield, and leave the other shield guy behind. I'd hoped to do a unit of 15 with the new box + the guys I've already got. Oh well! That'll work fine for narrative play.

[Rogue Explorator]

3 hours ago, Arkiham said:

Definitely just tzeentch 

Nope, I am not sold.

Spawn are still sold under Slaves to Darkness, the App still has them under Slaves to Darkness, with the old rules, the Lord of Chaos still turns into a Chaos Spawn when slain.

They propably listed Spawn again for Tzeentch, since so many rules interact with them and it makes sense to list them without optional dedication in the context of a Tzeentch Battletome, but all indicators point to the Slaves to Darkness Warscroll still being valid.

Tzeentch may produce more Spawn, but from the very beginning and throughout the entire history of Chaos in both Warhammer and Warhammer 40k, all Chaos Gods produce Spawn. I don't see that being overturned with a single Warscroll. Rules for the same unit represented with minor faction specific changes in multiple rulebooks is hardly a new procedure for GW.

[Arkiham]

We'll they've been changed, delete and redown load the Warscroll. 

It doesn't matter where the Warscroll is, the keywords for it clearly says tzeentch and the option to choose the Allegiance is gone.

This is no longer warhammer and the lore for 40k isn't relevant.

[Rogue Explorator]

28 minutes ago, Arkiham said:

We'll they've been changed, delete and redown load the Warscroll. 

It doesn't matter where the Warscroll is, the keywords for it clearly says tzeentch and the option to choose the Allegiance is gone.

This is no longer warhammer and the lore for 40k isn't relevant.

The Lore is still relevant where it describes the general MO of the Chaos Gods, as it has always persisted through the various settings.

Also, the Spawn Lore that has Champions of all Gods turn has already been carried into AoS, throughout the Realmgate Wars books there are times of battle sheets for various Gods that have Chaos Heroes turn into Spawn.

Or just read the fluff text for the new Warscroll you cite. It outright says that it describes those Spawn accompanying the Cults of Tzeentch and references other Spawn.

There have been a few crossings of streams in updating the App, such as the Gaunt Summoner on Disk from the Everchosen now having the new Warscroll of the Summoner on foot.

Lastly, no non-Tzeentch Warscroll referencing Spawn has been changed.

 

Your certainty in Spawn being relegated to Tzeentch only is premature. This will be cleared up soon, until then I rest my case.

[Shadowheart]

I do have to wonder if how Blue & Brimstone horrors will work in matched will be addressed, they're going to be a bit awkward as it stands.

Units of 10 pink horrors might work, if the whole units gets wiped out in 1 phase, summon in the 20 blues, if only a few pinks die, don't bother, and save the points to summon something else. Of course, this would dpend on if the summoning of the blues is complsory or not.

[CJPT]

59 minutes ago, Shadowheart said:

I do have to wonder if how Blue & Brimstone horrors will work in matched will be addressed, they're going to be a bit awkward as it stands.

Units of 10 pink horrors might work, if the whole units gets wiped out in 1 phase, summon in the 20 blues, if only a few pinks die, don't bother, and save the points to summon something else. Of course, this would dpend on if the summoning of the blues is complsory or not.

I've been thinking about this since yesterday, and a special batallion for splitting could be an elegant fix. Something that requires, say, 1 herald + 2 units of pink horrors, and allows you to split into blues and brimstones with all of those units for free. The batallion itself would have a points cost equivalent to the 'true' cost of the extra horrors (so 90, say, or 180). You'd still be paying for it but you'd get the most efficient version.

[Arkiham]

Agreed, they should have 2 point costs for pink Horrors,  one which includes the splitting cost and one which does not. 

Requiring you to be clear about what one you have taken.

This grants you the ability to use the modes and the rules provided and costs the appropriate amount 

[Malakithe]

What's up with the Gaunt? He can't fly on a disc anymore? No familiars?