Best Chaff for order

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Hi all,

As someone increasingly convinced of the deathstar + chaff combo in list design, I've been giving though to what makes for "good" chaff.  Some considerations include:

1. Mobility.  Chaff needs to get in between the thing you want to attack with, and the thing that wants to attack you.  Mobility is critical to this.  It also adds some additional utility in objective scoring etc.

2. Versatility.  Chaff isn't really expected to kill stuff, but being able to project enough of a threat that opponents need to engage it, or to allow it to do something other than die (hunt warmachines, etc.) magnifies it's usefulness tremendously.

3. Decent bravery.  Chaff that loses one model, then fails Bravery and loses the rest of the unit, can't perform it's function.

4. Broad compatibility.  Some units have abilities that closely rely on keywords, and are narrow in the synergies they offer.  Others can be incorporated broadly into any number of forces.  The more factions / lists / allegiances one can use them in, the better.

5. Cheap.  Chaff will die.  The fewer points I lose when that happens, the better.

Given these factors, what are your thoughts on the "best" chaff available to Order as a faction?

FMB

[Undead4Life]

I'm a big fan of the way Hunting Hounds seem to work. A fully-customizable unit size plus 12" move, a low profile, and a pretty typical wolf-type statline all seem pretty decent.

[Aezeal]

griffhound?

[ProvokedTree]

Wood Elf Wardancers could actually work out well in my opinion.   

 

8" movement, decent base stat line (3/4), although with a somewhat poor save (6), but then their dances can either buff their save to a 4, or buff their wound to a 3 and give them -1 rend, or give them another attack, so you have a bit of versatility with what you want them to do that turn, and could even be used as a form of counter-chaff.   

On top of all of that, models that are wounded can ignore the wound/mortal wound on a roll of a 6, which gives them a little more survivability, and their bravery of 7 isn't terrible.   

 

They are also only 60 points for 5. I would suggest running them in small units, since that lets you mix up your dances if you want to, and nothing is stopping you from throwing two units of 5 into an enemy unit instead of 1 unit of 10.

 

Edit: Buff their wound to a 3, not to a 4

[Barimbino]

5 minutes ago, ProvokedTree said:

Wood Elf Wardancers could actually work out well in my opinion.   

 

8" movement, decent base stat line (3/4), although with a somewhat poor save (6), but then their dances can either buff their save to a 4, or buff their wound to a 4 and give them -1 rend, or give them another attack, so you have a bit of versatility with what you want them to do that turn, and could even be used as a form of counter-chaff.  

I like the anti-chaff better. I think you would throw a small unit of these guys into a chaff unit and have their dance work accordingly. I'd say Defense first, then +wound and rend, then if they stay around another defense. You could even run them in a unit of three to stop a unit for a turn or two.

[ProvokedTree]

1 minute ago, Barimbino said:

I like the anti-chaff better. I think you would throw a small unit of these guys into a chaff unit and have their dance work accordingly. I'd say Defense first, then +wound and rend, then if they stay around another defense. You could even run them in a unit of three to stop a unit for a turn or two.

If you are throwing them into a chaff unit, I would say it is better to use one of the attack dances first, unless you really need to pick another unit to attack first, seeing as they are able to dish out a lot of attacks for such a small, low cost unit.  

I forgot to mention in my original post that they have 2 attacks base, so a unit of 5 using their attack dances can do either 10 3/3 -1 rend attacks, or 15 3/4 attacks, both with an additional 3/4 -1 rend attack from the unit champion. You would probably cause considerable damage to most chaff units with either of those unless they are huge, but even if it is, you still put a smaller point investment into the wardancers than they did their chaff, then once they have dealt with the chaff, you can start throwing them into more important enemy units to slow them down, or to force one to redirect before they can charge their shooting units etc.

[Sigwarus]

The answer is a unit of 10 skinks. Fast move of 8", very resistent to battlechock (10 bravery) , ignores rend -1, can withdraw from combat, got a missile attack and is cheap enough (80).

A mystic shield on this one and they can survive against many units out there. 

[Aezeal]

How do skink heavy armies work for Seraphon.. they seem very cost efficient.

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Now I just need to figure out how to rationalize skinks in my Bretonnian list.  

Hmm . . .

A band of bretonnians are cast into the warp by the turmoil of the End Times, and become trapped within a reality bubble.  Millennia have passed, but subjectively, it has been only weeks.  They are discovered by a band of Skink scouts,  who seek to lead them back to an Order enclave . . . .

FMB

[Aezeal]

In a hidden realm somewhere in the realm of shadows humans with a chivalric culture have emerged. Seraphon exploring the realm encounter them and see they have similar (order/good) values and decide to team up against the incursions of chaos in the realm.

Or you proxy your bretonnian skirmishers/archers for the seraphon (remember not to boost them with free people stuff in that case, and remember their stats :D)

[Bjarni St.]

Skinks are small and obedient. Perfect breeding stock to populate a new peasant class!

[Aezeal]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 8:59 PM, ProvokedTree said:

If you are throwing them into a chaff unit, I would say it is better to use one of the attack dances first, unless you really need to pick another unit to attack first, seeing as they are able to dish out a lot of attacks for such a small, low cost unit.  

I forgot to mention in my original post that they have 2 attacks base, so a unit of 5 using their attack dances can do either 10 3/3 -1 rend attacks, or 15 3/4 attacks, both with an additional 3/4 -1 rend attack from the unit champion. You would probably cause considerable damage to most chaff units with either of those unless they are huge, but even if it is, you still put a smaller point investment into the wardancers than they did their chaff, then once they have dealt with the chaff, you can start throwing them into more important enemy units to slow them down, or to force one to redirect before they can charge their shooting units etc.

Yeah they are mean when in melee against low armor troops. Compared to skinks their low wounds means they get whipped out by shooting easier though.

[PJetski]

10 hours ago, Bjarni St. said:

Skinks are small and obedient. Perfect breeding stock to populate a new peasant class!

Skinks are daemons called into existence by the will of the Slann, shaped into the form of the Lizardmen they once knew

So they probably don't breed

[Sigwarus]

Maybe a damsel got hold of some ancient relic staff that summons seraphon?

[AlexHarrison]

What about Men At Arms? 16 5+ save Models for 120 points? Or Freeguild, 80 points for 10 5+ save.

[Aezeal]

They are meatshields but not very mobile right.

[Fireymonkeyboy]

Also, no longer in production, and ridiculously expensive on the secondary market.

FMB

[KingCheops]

Skinks are amazing because of their disengage ability.  Since they disengage instead of piling in they can still move, shoot, charge etc and can disengage during the opponent's turn.  It allows for all sorts of shenanigans which is exactly what you want for a chaff unit.

1. 8" movement

2. Strong enough to threaten war machines, wizards, and other archer units.  Can put a wound or two on main battle units.

3. Bravery 10 and if fielded with other Seraphon have lots of things to augment that.

4. Fluff wise they are patrolling units and pickets.  Game wise their stat line reflects this such that they fulfill their role while well outside of command/support range.

5. 80 points for 10.  If used as chaff resist the urge to grab the large size bonuses.  I'd only recommend that for main battle line cohorts of javelin skinks (think the old Southlands style armies).

[Sarkazim]

Going to put in a plug for Dark Aelves here.

1) Dreadspears.  While I don't currently own them, after playing a few games with my Dark Riders, these guys are pretty good for the 80 points.  Why?  Darkshields.  Give these guys a bonus (Cover/Arcane Shield) and they're rocking a 4+ re-rolling 1's.  Once in combat, they're re-rolling 2's as well.  Their 6" move+ Run is enough to irritate your opponent since you don't want to be charging with them very often.  The Bravery 6 seems low, but you can get that up to an 8 easily enough that the Order bonuses will cut down on casualties.

Offensively, they'll perform well for a cheap unit.  If they don't move in the preceding Movement phase, they get the +1 to hit.  Unless I'm missing something, you'll get this bonus anytime you get charged.  The 2" reach will translate into quite a few hits.  Get the unit over 20, and you'll have a 2+ to hit.  500 points can easily get you two blocks of 30, and that's chaff that your opponent can't ignore.

2) Dark Riders.  Yes, I AM biased here because this is all I'm running.  Everywhere I've read, and even at a glance they aren't impressive, but I can't express how satisfied I am with my choice.  They have INSANE mobility.  The 14" move will get them in your opponents way, across the board to nab objectives, or go safely out of harms way on a retreat.  The 2 wounds combined with the Darkshields have kept the Battleshock tests down with the Bravery 7 (Banner), plus the Order bonus.

The 140 price tag doesn't seem cheap, but I've come to realize that I'm getting 30 Attacks for that unit (3 from the Repeaters, 1 from the Spear, 2 from the mount).  I've seen complaints about the 16" range, but again I've learned that it's plenty.  With the combined movement and range of the Repeaters, I can shoot anything that is not on his back edge of the board.  When going 2nd, It's easy to retreat to his back board and hope for winning the initiative.  If stuck in combat, the range on the repeaters is also enough to support other combats if necessary.  At that point, the 'Sow Terror and Confusion' is just icing on the cake for your opponent making Battleshock tests.

 

[bottle]

The icing on the cake with skinks is they must be the cheapest GW model monatary wise too. At £20.50 for 24 that puts them at 85p a model.

[jamierk]

Skinks oh dear god Skinks! Battle line, 80 points for 10, 8" move, bravery 10, shooting output and most importanlty get charged just 'pile out'. Not uber survivable but with their shield ignoring rend -1, chuck em in cover plus a mystic shield and they are REALLY hard to shift. I just love the pile out mechanic. I've used it even by charging a unit, get forward, then pile out past a unit into terrain on an objective (the pile out is 8"!). Don't leave home without 10.

[jamierk]

Also, don't underestimate their shooting, especially with sitting around a hurricanum. 16" range is not bad for a little blow dart! (why can they only throw a javelin 8" anyway?)

[Fireymonkeyboy]

 

I wonder if it's possible to paint skinks in heraldic colours?

FMB