Future Of AoS

[Gaz Taylor]

The reason why Stormcast are the poster boys and girls of Age of Sigmar is because they are cool models, easy to paint, heroic and diverse background, and of course the “Angels” of Sigmar so big part of the setting. 
 

I also agree with @Beliman that I don’t want them to be clones of marines. They should be better! Marines are cool because they are a satire. Stormcast are cool because they are Hero’s. 

[novakai]

6 hours ago, Marcvs said:

All true, but also applicable to all other factions imho. Which AoS novel would you pick as a "breakout hit"? Do fans know the difference between Illiatha and Alumnia? Or Tempest Eye and Greywater Fastness?

Personally I would always bet on Stormcast in the launch and starter boxes for 4th and would be surprised even by a change in 5th, if anything because of the inertia of the big-GW-machine and sunken costs.

I mean it quite possible that Black library is just bankrolled by their space marine and Horus heresy novel and none of the AoS novels have ever been big hits to begin with. (Moderate success at best)

[CommissarRotke]

16 hours ago, wargames101 said:

My hope is that Dominion's lack of sell-through led them to reconsider including Stormcast in the 4.0 box. The slower than expected sales were immediately obvious, even if they were still solid in absolute terms, so it is possible even if unlikely.

the lack of sell-through was an overproduction issue, not because Stormcast were in the box?

WHF also had no true poster faction like 40k has always had, which is something that IMHO has always been a strength for the fantasy IP. I love Stormcast but I'd rather them not become the entirety of the game/setting like Marines are.

16 hours ago, wargames101 said:

So far as I can tell, none of the novels have been breakout hits

I don't think most of BL novels are "breakout hits," however Soul Wars is the most recommended first-read and is a Nagash/Stormcast book.

As for the 10 years thing, well... how many of us only know the difference between Space Marines because we read over everything as teenagers? Would we put in the same amount of effort now as adults? Do you keep up with 40k because of a genuine interest or because it is nigh inescapable if you're into wargaming? I know personally I often don't have the energy to be reading, or there's something More Relevant to read first, and I have more 40k-interested friends than AOS ones so I hear about 40k whether I want to or not. And even though almost all of them agree Marines get too much spotlight in 40k, most of them are still... painting Marines.

IDK, there's a lot more context to be had here. "Keep Stormcast out of starter sets now" because of a perceived flop feels like it misses that. GW itself could maybe actually understand that making Stormcast into Marines is a net negative on the fantasy IP side. 

[Beliman]

1 hour ago, CommissarRotke said:

Would we put in the same amount of effort now as adults?

I'm not going to answer this question...

[Gitzdee]

3 hours ago, CommissarRotke said:

Would we put in the same amount of effort now as adults?

[wargames101]

On 10/2/2023 at 11:02 AM, CommissarRotke said:

the lack of sell-through was an overproduction issue, not because Stormcast were in the box?

WHF also had no true poster faction like 40k has always had, which is something that IMHO has always been a strength for the fantasy IP. I love Stormcast but I'd rather them not become the entirety of the game/setting like Marines are.

I don't think most of BL novels are "breakout hits," however Soul Wars is the most recommended first-read and is a Nagash/Stormcast book.

As for the 10 years thing, well... how many of us only know the difference between Space Marines because we read over everything as teenagers? Would we put in the same amount of effort now as adults? Do you keep up with 40k because of a genuine interest or because it is nigh inescapable if you're into wargaming? I know personally I often don't have the energy to be reading, or there's something More Relevant to read first, and I have more 40k-interested friends than AOS ones so I hear about 40k whether I want to or not. And even though almost all of them agree Marines get too much spotlight in 40k, most of them are still... painting Marines.

IDK, there's a lot more context to be had here. "Keep Stormcast out of starter sets now" because of a perceived flop feels like it misses that. GW itself could maybe actually understand that making Stormcast into Marines is a net negative on the fantasy IP side. 

"Overproduction" is just a more charitable way of saying "lack of demand." GW "overproduced" Leviathan, which meant that you could still buy it on the webstore on Tuesday after launching on Saturday and not selling out in 15 minutes. Dominion has been 50% off for nearly *three years.* 

My guess is that they'll address this lack of popularity in 4.0 by keeping SCE as one of the factions, but reduce the production levels so the boxes shift faster. My wish would be that they stop trying to port the 40K model of having a Marine stand-in in every edition, embrace the strength of their creative team instead, and give more production slots to other armies that may catch on organically with the fandom.

I love the AoS models, but the lore has just not caught on after a decade and I think a big part of the reason is that they're trying to shoehorn these bland superheroes into what is fundamentally a fantasy universe. GoT has arguably been the most popular media franchise during AoS's entire run. The fact that they haven't been able to capture any of that zeitgeist is, IMHO, a reflection that they need to think about things differently.

[Beliman]

11 hours ago, wargames101 said:

I love the AoS models, but the lore has just not caught on after a decade and I think a big part of the reason is that they're trying to shoehorn these bland superheroes into what is fundamentally a fantasy universe.

Part of this issue is because GW doesn't explains what AoS is.

Most people only know AoS by "weird realms with stargates, sigmarines, magic stuff everywhere and stuff with gods fighting gods". And the worst thing is that none of this is playable appart from SCE.

But the setting is similar to Mad Max, just with a fantasy flavour. With canibals, orruks and stuff like that everywhere. The main civilizations survive behind city-state walls, flying in the sky, under a mountain or in the middle of a jungle. We play our armies as if they were expeditions, crusades or as the last stand to defend our city.

But no one knows that unless you are already invested in AoS. To me, that's a big fail from GW.

Edited October 8, 2023 by Beliman

[Gitzdee]

Yeah the mortal realms are hard to explain unless you really try to learn about it all. But thats the same for painting, building, learning the game. This hobby requires some commitment. Its also what makes the community so great. Most people are really passionate about their stuff.

[Ejecutor]

3 hours ago, wargames101 said:

"Overproduction" is just a more charitable way of saying "lack of demand." GW "overproduced" Leviathan, which meant that you could still buy it on the webstore on Tuesday after launching on Saturday and not selling out in 15 minutes. Dominion has been 50% off for nearly *three years.* 

My guess is that they'll address this lack of popularity in 4.0 by keeping SCE as one of the factions, but reduce the production levels so the boxes shift faster. My wish would be that they stop trying to port the 40K model of having a Marine stand-in in every edition, embrace the strength of their creative team instead, and give more production slots to other armies that may catch on organically with the fandom.

I love the AoS models, but the lore has just not caught on after a decade and I think a big part of the reason is that they're trying to shoehorn these bland superheroes into what is fundamentally a fantasy universe. GoT has arguably been the most popular media franchise during AoS's entire run. The fact that they haven't been able to capture any of that zeitgeist is, IMHO, a reflection that they need to think about things differently.

I don't think a tale based on a wargame is as easy to introduce as an HBO series based tale. In fact prior to that ASOIAF wasn't that popular neither.

[Chikout]

I disagree with a lot of what's being said here. I don't think it's at all difficult to understand the mortal realms. They are clearly inspired by the 9 realms of Norse mythology. Azyr is very similar to Asgard. Shyish is a version of Hellheim etc. 

Simply reading the second or third edition core book or the Soul wars core book will give you a pretty good grounding in the lore of the game. Is that too much work for everyone? 

As for popularity, asking AoS to compete with game of thrones on the lore front is a weird comparison. Look at it the other way round. Asoiaf is one of the biggest fantasy series of all time with two hugely popular TV shows. They made a miniature game with solid rules and an attractive range of miniatures but this year they aren't even in the top ten best selling miniature games in America. AoS outsells Star wars legion and Marvel Crisis protocol in America which should those two games' home turf. 

Also over production of Dominion is a good thing. The fact that someone can go on Amazon (in America) and buy the box set for a reasonable price is great. That said I couldn't find it available on any of the main UK retailers for less than it's original price. 

Why should we want the main box set for an edition to sell out in a week?  What about new players who join the hobby in the following three years? They should have the chance to but the best value box set rather than the cheaper but worse value starter sets that come out later. I hope GW overproduces the next starter set as well. The Cursed city situation is the nightmare not the dream. 

 

[Ejecutor]

5 hours ago, Chikout said:

I disagree with a lot of what's being said here. I don't think it's at all difficult to understand the mortal realms. They are clearly inspired by the 9 realms of Norse mythology. Azyr is very similar to Asgard. Shyish is a version of Hellheim etc. 

Simply reading the second or third edition core book or the Soul wars core book will give you a pretty good grounding in the lore of the game. Is that too much work for everyone? 

As for popularity, asking AoS to compete with game of thrones on the lore front is a weird comparison. Look at it the other way round. Asoiaf is one of the biggest fantasy series of all time with two hugely popular TV shows. They made a miniature game with solid rules and an attractive range of miniatures but this year they aren't even in the top ten best selling miniature games in America. AoS outsells Star wars legion and Marvel Crisis protocol in America which should those two games' home turf. 

Also over production of Dominion is a good thing. The fact that someone can go on Amazon (in America) and buy the box set for a reasonable price is great. That said I couldn't find it available on any of the main UK retailers for less than it's original price. 

Why should we want the main box set for an edition to sell out in a week?  What about new players who join the hobby in the following three years? They should have the chance to but the best value box set rather than the cheaper but worse value starter sets that come out later. I hope GW overproduces the next starter set as well. The Cursed city situation is the nightmare not the dream. 

 

I think the problem is the missconception of the edition launching box as the 'main box set'. They are not thought for casual players, Imo. That's why they launch 3 "variations" of it later on. So, even that I agree it is nice to have them available, I don't think it is the purpose of that box to last more than a month.

[CommissarRotke]

21 hours ago, wargames101 said:

"Overproduction" is just a more charitable way of saying "lack of demand." GW "overproduced" Leviathan, which meant that you could still buy it on the webstore on Tuesday after launching on Saturday and not selling out in 15 minutes. Dominion has been 50% off for nearly *three years.* 

i think it can still be both, especially when we keep hearing about FLGS being pushed by GW reps to over-stock releases again and again.

21 hours ago, Beliman said:

And the worst thing is that none of this is playable appart from SCE.

this is your only point i disagree with: AOS got me exactly because you are absoutely not shoehorned or pushed into SCE like you are Marines in 40k. Even in their featured novels, there's generally always other factions of Order helping out or in the background. Underworlds and Warcry have, since the start, both given us an even wider spectrum of the Realms to enjoy as well.

 

Part of me wonders if GW got super duper lucky in nailing their 40k "There is only war" opener to help it catch on. AOS is still kinda trying to nail theirs. Or if it really comes down to scifi generally being more 'accessible' because we already have guns and cars (and spaceships that sorta work) in real life. If it's not straight ripped from Earth, it does feel like Fantasy IPs require an extra oomph to get people in.

[wargames101]

22 hours ago, Beliman said:

Part of this issue is because GW doesn't explains what AoS is.

Most people only know AoS by "weird realms with stargates, sigmarines, magic stuff everywhere and stuff with gods fighting gods". And the worst thing is that none of this is playable appart from SCE.

But the setting is similar to Mad Max, just with a fantasy flavour. With canibals, orruks and stuff like that everywhere. The main civilizations survive behind city-state walls, flying in the sky, under a mountain or in the middle of a jungle. We play our armies as if they were expeditions, crusades or as the last stand to defend our city.

But no one knows that unless you are already invested in AoS. To me, that's a big fail from GW.

And once you do spend a little time digging into into the lore, you're not rewarded with some satisfying a-ha, but rather, the feeling that you've invested dozens of hours into reading a crappy retcon hastily written around calculations made around sunk cost mold CapEx.

"Oh, so these gold guys basically can't die?"

"Yes, but every time they do they lose a bit of their essence."

"So they're basically going to turn into Chaos Sigmarines?"

"We'll it's been ten years and we haven't seen it happen, but there have been some cryptic allusions to it in the margins of a codex!"

"Eh, that's not my faction. These lizard guys look cool, I assume they come from some tropical realm in this fantasy land."

"That was true when these models were used in another game, but now they're actually space aliens that just happen to have Mesoamerican styling."

"Eh."

"Ok, their lore doesn't make sense either, but the Flesh-Eater Courts are so cool, they're basically monstrous vampire beasts who are cursed to believe they're Arthurian Knights."

"Oh cool! Ok, I'm into that. So I imagine there are all sorts of ways you can customize the vampires?"

"Well no, they haven't actually had a new kit in 15 years or so, but you can kitbash some of the Stormcast bits."

 

Anyway, like I said, I like the game and models, I just wish they'd spend more time crafting better lore for the great models, and investing resources into the great lore they have.

[Ejecutor]

14 minutes ago, wargames101 said:

"Eh, that's not my faction. These lizard guys look cool, I assume they come from some tropical realm in this fantasy land."

"That was true when these models were used in another game, but now they're actually space aliens that just happen to have Mesoamerican styling."

"Eh."

They were always space aliens

[Bosskelot]

Again, it isn't a good thing to be finding these supposed limited boxes in the wild over 2 years later. Boxes like Dominion and Leviathan swallow up a HUGE amount of GW's production capacity, which has already been having a terrible time for the past 2 years, so if they they produce like 60% too many of them that's an absurd amount of plastic and cardboard that hasn't gone into keeping their other ranges in-stock.

If we want to use new players as an excuse here, well I'd hazard a guess that more new players will be looking at 40k, so if 40k product ranges are getting hammered by needing to produce an AOS or Warcry or KT box that won't sell enough then that's objectively worse for new players.

As I said before; there are countries that have had certain products out of stock for over a year now. That's how bad GW's logistics are struggling currently. Overproducing these big prestige boxes that either rot away on shelves or end up having to be sent back to Nottingham to be destroyed is not all that good for anyone outside of finding cheap extras if you're going some crazy skewlist of 100 ETB hobgrots or 120 ETB necron warriors or something.